the similarities between Smile and Sgt. Pepper

[alf wiedersehen]

seeks to read into and interpret every word of a lyric or every note into some highly cosmic, important, or socially conscious meaning to suit their own quirks and needs

*cough*expectingrain.com*cough*

[Bill Tobelman]

Well I think the similarities between SMiLE & SGT PEPPER's have to start with the influence of acid---both of these works represent the positive potential of the drug at the moment when society was ready for such a musical/philosophical/spiritual revelation.

Production-wise you guys have covered it.

One similarity I find that isn't usually talked about is that The Beatles took on another level of persona for their album--that of being another band altogether and while The Beach Boys' effort seemed to be The Beach Boys---the false thing was that the lyrics were metaphors for the psychedelic experience. In essence both records had an additional level of experience built into them.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Well I think the similarities between SMiLE & SGT PEPPER's have to start with the influence of acid---both of these works represent the positive potential of the drug at the moment when society was ready for such a musical/philosophical/spiritual revelation.

Production-wise you guys have covered it.

One similarity I find that isn't usually talked about is that The Beatles took on another level of persona for their album--that of being another band altogether and while The Beach Boys' effort seemed to be The Beach Boys---the false thing was that the lyrics were metaphors for the psychedelic experience. In essence both records had an additional level of experience built into them.

SMiLE addresses the negative potential too. The obvious example is Fire which is the pure, indescribable horror of a bad trip put to music.

The Beatles alt persona idea was pretty shallow and not fleshed out as well.

[Bill Tobelman]

Actually my prior post is wrong in that it singularly points to the lyrics as being metaphors for the LSD experience. The music as well as the artwork was made to represent something it cannot directly refer to as well.

The psychedelic experience was considered on the level of realizing God/It and Eastern practices such as Subud and Zen are similarly about direct communication on this level. SMiLE scholars will recognize that Brian was into Subud & referred to Zen during these times.

[Adult Child]

I think Smile would've been a lot more intense then Sgt Peppers, in terms of vision and depth. Sgt Peppers' innovation in 1967 was remarkable, with all those styles on the record, with the album cover art, with the lyrics on the back, and more than anything (not so much innovation, but luck), the fact that it was released at exactly the right time to coincide with what became the Summer of Love, and a wider awareness of people gaining a higher consciousness (and a lot more people thinking they had a higher consciousness). Regardless, it was a cosmic moment, and books could (and I'm sure have) been written about how momentous the album's release and influence was. And I think it's a great record, a knock-out record (Brian said in 1992 it "might be the single greatest record I've ever heard"). But it's really not the all time great album, and for an occasion as momentous as a whole society/world of people opening up to themselves and landing on a higher plain of humanity (it's an idea that's far too incredible to be true), Sgt Peppers in hindsight doesn't exactly seem like the holy grail for such a year zero. A Day In The Life is the only track that could fit such an assessment. But it's not really about putting down Sgt Peppers, because it is a fantastic record.

It's just that Smile would've been, I'm almost positive, miles and miles ahead. And Brian knew this. Because he saw it. And it was a vision deeper than just an idea (in this case of a journey across America, of humor, of health, of good and evil, and of youth). All these ideas, that meant something to the time, did and were to intertwine and mix and all connect to each other. Because they did. And it was going to show musically, with little bits of Heroes and Villains in Love To Say Dada, or a bit of Wonderful in Child is Father of the Man (I hear it). Brian heard all this, and knew it's importance when it came to Smile. I think it's part of why he couldn't complete it. It was too great a task for a troubled Brian to continue undertaking. Brian was a kid emotionally I think then, though in terms of intelligence he understood a lot about of the inner mind and psychology and the way things worked. Coped with his emotional capacity, he more than anyone was able to create this ultimate expression of awareness at that time, when more and more people were becoming "aware". Plus, he was a genius musically (the only genius in modern music history, I believe), so it would've been better too. Brian was very, very in touch with himself. And while Sgt Peppers, like I said, had a lot of different styles (rock, neo-classical, Indian, dance hall) musically, Brian was creating a whole realistic, aware universe within each song. In Fire, you don't just hear a bunch of sirens and whistles going off, you hear the tension and the claustrophobia and the danger and you feel physically as if you're in that fire. The whole album would've been a scope of what life really is. Surfs Up is a tragic song. Fire is scary. Wonderful is adventurous and blissful. Heroes and Villains is epic. Our Prayer/Prayer is religious. And the "Bicycle Rider" theme running through the whole thing is obsessive and psychotic and is, for me (besides Surfs Up), the hardest hitting, brilliant thing on it (it being what I've heard). Each song really lives and breathes. And musically, with all these musical themes and tracks flowing (like water almost) together, it would've really been a mix of classical music and pop music and old and new and anyone not even aware of all the other stuff about it would be able to recognize it's importance in that respect. What Brian was doing was art. It was true, life-consuming, life-changing art that musically pushed boundaries too and as a vision (and as a series of musical masterpieces), would've been so complete and would've touched such a raw nerve to anyone aware and becoming aware of who they are, that it would've knocked Sgt Peppers out of the water. I know that was a very fancy-dancy, not so great explanation of it, but in short Smile would've changed everything, whether anyone would've payed attention or not. There's no real telling what Smile's success commercially would've been, but artistically it would've been the greatest, most advanced album of all time. And I think it'd still be, since no one's done anything like it since. With the influence of acid obviously all over it (not that I could tell  ), and such a cosmic, omniscient, psychic depth to it, really tuned in people/hippies would've had their minds blown beyond comprehension. It certainly blew Brian's mind.

In short, Smile was (I think) art. Sgt Peppers was not as much art. Smile would've been that much greater because of how much greater Brian was, and the fact that Brian was one person. Not 4 men and a producer. Brian (with Van Dyke helping) was 1 guy, and thus the whole record was Brian's singular "whole new universe of experience",  reaching as far into himself as he possibly could. Smile really would've been the sound of awareness. I sound stupid explaining it. In (real) short: Smile would've been a more advanced, fully formed version of what Sgt Peppers was. By a lot. And I think it would've kicked Sgt Peppers ass. Surfs Up is the greatest song ever written.

[Bill Tobelman]

You can see where Brian was at by reading this. His SMiLE focus is there trough Subud.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202609054661316&set=gm.10152332392091318&type=1&theater

[Bill Tobelman]

"I think that for the first time maybe in uh, God I don't know, how many millions of years, or thousands or hundreds, everybody's got a personal path right to God, you know? And uh, it seems to be working out so great with everybody individually, you know? Everybody's going right to the source and having a ball."

~Brian Wilson, January 1968

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think Smile would've been a lot more intense then Sgt Peppers, in terms of vision and depth. Sgt Peppers' innovation in 1967 was remarkable, with all those styles on the record, with the album cover art, with the lyrics on the back, and more than anything (not so much innovation, but luck), the fact that it was released at exactly the right time to coincide with what became the Summer of Love, and a wider awareness of people gaining a higher consciousness (and a lot more people thinking they had a higher consciousness). Regardless, it was a cosmic moment, and books could (and I'm sure have) been written about how momentous the album's release and influence was. And I think it's a great record, a knock-out record (Brian said in 1992 it "might be the single greatest record I've ever heard"). But it's really not the all time great album, and for an occasion as momentous as a whole society/world of people opening up to themselves and landing on a higher plain of humanity (it's an idea that's far too incredible to be true), Sgt Peppers in hindsight doesn't exactly seem like the holy grail for such a year zero. A Day In The Life is the only track that could fit such an assessment. But it's not really about putting down Sgt Peppers, because it is a fantastic record.

It's just that Smile would've been, I'm almost positive, miles and miles ahead. And Brian knew this. Because he saw it. And it was a vision deeper than just an idea (in this case of a journey across America, of humor, of health, of good and evil, and of youth). All these ideas, that meant something to the time, did and were to intertwine and mix and all connect to each other. Because they did. And it was going to show musically, with little bits of Heroes and Villains in Love To Say Dada, or a bit of Wonderful in Child is Father of the Man (I hear it). Brian heard all this, and knew it's importance when it came to Smile. I think it's part of why he couldn't complete it. It was too great a task for a troubled Brian to continue undertaking. Brian was a kid emotionally I think then, though in terms of intelligence he understood a lot about of the inner mind and psychology and the way things worked. Coped with his emotional capacity, he more than anyone was able to create this ultimate expression of awareness at that time, when more and more people were becoming "aware". Plus, he was a genius musically (the only genius in modern music history, I believe), so it would've been better too. Brian was very, very in touch with himself. And while Sgt Peppers, like I said, had a lot of different styles (rock, neo-classical, Indian, dance hall) musically, Brian was creating a whole realistic, aware universe within each song. In Fire, you don't just hear a bunch of sirens and whistles going off, you hear the tension and the claustrophobia and the danger and you feel physically as if you're in that fire. The whole album would've been a scope of what life really is. Surfs Up is a tragic song. Fire is scary. Wonderful is adventurous and blissful. Heroes and Villains is epic. Our Prayer/Prayer is religious. And the "Bicycle Rider" theme running through the whole thing is obsessive and psychotic and is, for me (besides Surfs Up), the hardest hitting, brilliant thing on it (it being what I've heard). Each song really lives and breathes. And musically, with all these musical themes and tracks flowing (like water almost) together, it would've really been a mix of classical music and pop music and old and new and anyone not even aware of all the other stuff about it would be able to recognize it's importance in that respect. What Brian was doing was art. It was true, life-consuming, life-changing art that musically pushed boundaries too and as a vision (and as a series of musical masterpieces), would've been so complete and would've touched such a raw nerve to anyone aware and becoming aware of who they are, that it would've knocked Sgt Peppers out of the water. I know that was a very fancy-dancy, not so great explanation of it, but in short Smile would've changed everything, whether anyone would've payed attention or not. There's no real telling what Smile's success commercially would've been, but artistically it would've been the greatest, most advanced album of all time. And I think it'd still be, since no one's done anything like it since. With the influence of acid obviously all over it (not that I could tell  ), and such a cosmic, omniscient, psychic depth to it, really tuned in people/hippies would've had their minds blown beyond comprehension. It certainly blew Brian's mind.

In short, Smile was (I think) art. Sgt Peppers was not as much art. Smile would've been that much greater because of how much greater Brian was, and the fact that Brian was one person. Not 4 men and a producer. Brian (with Van Dyke helping) was 1 guy, and thus the whole record was Brian's singular "whole new universe of experience",  reaching as far into himself as he possibly could. Smile really would've been the sound of awareness. I sound stupid explaining it. In (real) short: Smile would've been a more advanced, fully formed version of what Sgt Peppers was. By a lot. And I think it would've kicked Sgt Peppers ass. Surfs Up is the greatest song ever written.

Very well written review of this classic album.

[guitarfool2002]

It has to be considered, though, that Sgt. Pepper underneath the threadbare concept of the Beatles taking on the persona of another band, still prominently features musical performances from the Beatles as a self-contained band. Underneath all of the sonic innovations and production touches, the majority of that album was performed instrumentally and vocally by the Beatles as a self-contained band. If you heard a guitar, it was a Beatle, if you heard drums, it was a Beatle, if you heard bass, it was a Beatle, etc. Yes, there are legions of overdubs, yes those overdubs and orchestrations help define the sound of the album along with the innovative mixing, but does anyone consider it anything but a Beatles group album?

Consider that thanks in part to Derek Taylor's press efforts, Brian was getting a lot of press throughout 1966 as the keystone of the music, and was being singled out as the producer-of-note whose mind was creating all of these wonderful soundscapes in the studio. The notion that the end results were "Beach Boys" efforts almost got pushed aside in the press of the day. And when people saw them tour, they got a fantastic show but the sound of the records wasn't coming from the stage. After summer 1966, the Beatles did not need to worry about that as they quit the road. But it was some of the scuttlebutt going around among fans and fan publications of that time.

I wonder if Smile had come out, whether it would have been accepted as a Beach Boys album, or whether it would have further added to the conversations about who was actually making the music, and to what degree the notion of a self-contained band called The Beach Boys existed outside the live performances.

Again, somewhat old news and previous debate, but all of the talk about "What if?" Smile had been released on time, and how it would have existed alongside Sgt. Pepper got me thinking about the notion of a "band" making an album, and how if in any way that would have affected the fan reaction to an album like Smile where the band credited with the music did not - in reality - perform a majority of the tracks on the album as a "band".

I know Pet Sounds, I know Good Vibrations...but those were taking heat too from fans in '66/'67, an under-reported fact. So coming on the heels of Pet Sounds, would Smile have been accepted as a "Beach Boys" album, per se?

I'm just thinking one of the Beatles' strengths was that they had a stronger band/group identity when it came to fans buying their records with the expectation they would be hearing Beatles on a majority of the tracks.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It has to be considered, though, that Sgt. Pepper underneath the threadbare concept of the Beatles taking on the persona of another band, still prominently features musical performances from the Beatles as a self-contained band. Underneath all of the sonic innovations and production touches, the majority of that album was performed instrumentally and vocally by the Beatles as a self-contained band. If you heard a guitar, it was a Beatle, if you heard drums, it was a Beatle, if you heard bass, it was a Beatle, etc. Yes, there are legions of overdubs, yes those overdubs and orchestrations help define the sound of the album along with the innovative mixing, but does anyone consider it anything but a Beatles group album?

Consider that thanks in part to Derek Taylor's press efforts, Brian was getting a lot of press throughout 1966 as the keystone of the music, and was being singled out as the producer-of-note whose mind was creating all of these wonderful soundscapes in the studio. The notion that the end results were "Beach Boys" efforts almost got pushed aside in the press of the day. And when people saw them tour, they got a fantastic show but the sound of the records wasn't coming from the stage. After summer 1966, the Beatles did not need to worry about that as they quit the road. But it was some of the scuttlebutt going around among fans and fan publications of that time.

I wonder if Smile had come out, whether it would have been accepted as a Beach Boys album, or whether it would have further added to the conversations about who was actually making the music, and to what degree the notion of a self-contained band called The Beach Boys existed outside the live performances.

Again, somewhat old news and previous debate, but all of the talk about "What if?" Smile had been released on time, and how it would have existed alongside Sgt. Pepper got me thinking about the notion of a "band" making an album, and how if in any way that would have affected the fan reaction to an album like Smile where the band credited with the music did not - in reality - perform a majority of the tracks on the album as a "band".

I know Pet Sounds, I know Good Vibrations...but those were taking heat too from fans in '66/'67, an under-reported fact. So coming on the heels of Pet Sounds, would Smile have been accepted as a "Beach Boys" album, per se?

I'm just thinking one of the Beatles' strengths was that they had a stronger band/group identity when it came to fans buying their records with the expectation they would be hearing Beatles on a majority of the tracks.

Interesting point. I almost think it would've been better if SMiLE had just been a solo album. Brian was more interested in producing awesome LPs, Mike and the Boys wanted to go in a different direction than Brian, Caroline No was released as a solo single...it just seems to make sense. SMiLE could be credited to Brian Wilson, Lyrics by VDP and featuring the Beach Boys.

In a perfect world, that would've been Brian's first solo LP, with a Smiley-esque companion album from the Boys released at the same time (and performed at Monterey.) This Smiley type album could have the same music but more scaled down arrangements.

But this is all wishful 'best of both worlds' thinking on my part. I wish with all my heart SMiLE had been completed in '67, but I've grown to appreciate Smiley as a work of art in its own right, and I'm glad it exists. If the two could've existed at the same time, as companion pieces, I think it really couldve made a statement. You'd have the intricate, studio as an instrument beauty of SMiLE with the humble, honest simplicity of Smiley. I feel it couldve been an astute statement from the Beach Boys that pop music is at a crossroads, as well as a triumphant assertion that whichever way it went, they'd be up to the task.