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Author Topic: Why was Carl at the bottom of the harmony stack?  (Read 43310 times)
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« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2014, 12:09:12 PM »

No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".

That still leaves "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie" -- both with prominent Carl leads being released less than ten albums into the career. Not to mention the duet with David on "Summertime Blues," with Carl as the top voice, on their FIRST album. He was being given a few leads early on.



I think we're getting into semantics here.  Smiley   Those feature Carl, but not as the primary lead, the featured driving vocal of the song. Apart from Brian and Mike, the lead vocalists in the group, if we look at Dennis getting the lead on "Do You Wanna Dance", Al getting one on the Christmas album and then Help Me Rhonda, Carl didn't get his big chance to be featured lead until "Girl Don't Tell Me".
I'm confused...you don't consider "Little Girl", "Surfers Rule", "This Car Of Mine", or "The Wanderer" to be featured Dennis leads?

I was just using "Dance" as an example of one where he was the prominent lead singer. I could have picked any of the others too.
I see.

I feel like I've overstayed my welcome, so with that - Thanks Adam for some great insights, and my vacation begins this afternoon.  Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2014, 12:18:26 PM »

Not at all, Guitarfool!  I'm keeping my mouth shut for a bit too to let the other folks have their say...enjoying how random and interesting all the posts are.

And I'm going on tour in four days and can't wait to leave town, so I feel you!  This thread has helped take the stress off for me, so thanks everybody...
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« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2014, 01:10:45 PM »

I've learned quite a bit from this thread, very interesting.
Didn't comment before because I couldn't think of anything to say.
Be sure to vote on Dennis's petition on your way out!  Cheesy
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« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2014, 01:58:12 PM »

Speaking of Pom Pom player... I hear (top to bottom) Brian, Al, Dennis, Mike in the harmony stack against Carl's lead. However, I wonder if there is one more voice in the harmony: there's a few five-note chords there (you can always omit one or two and the instruments are playing the chords anyway) and during Mike's line I think I hear four voices-- and assume Carl isn't switching as a lead/harmony singer. So probably the stack vocals were recorded including Carl and then his leads recorded separately? Does anybody else hear five parts?

Also, even though Carl sounds good in it, this seems to be a natural song for Mike. It's as if Brian (and Mike?) was determined to give Carl a lead to sing. Hear this:
http://youtu.be/B9fx81wKt-g
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« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2014, 01:21:16 AM »

Since I can't read music, I guess I'll try asking again.

Here's a question:  How accurate are the parts in this link?
http://okeverybody.com/beach_boys/Surfer_Girl

If you haven't been to that site, take some time and look around.  One thing I found interesting was that it has both the 1966 and (live) 1973 arrangements for "Wouldn't It Be Nice".  Unfortunately for someone like me (who can't read music) most of them are no help, as "Surfer Girl" is one of the very few that breaks each song down with sound files for each individual vocal part.
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« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2014, 03:51:59 AM »

Since I can't read music, I guess I'll try asking again.

Here's a question:  How accurate are the parts in this link?
http://okeverybody.com/beach_boys/Surfer_Girl

If you haven't been to that site, take some time and look around.  One thing I found interesting was that it has both the 1966 and (live) 1973 arrangements for "Wouldn't It Be Nice".  Unfortunately for someone like me (who can't read music) most of them are no help, as "Surfer Girl" is one of the very few that breaks each song down with sound files for each individual vocal part.

I looked at it briefly. Seem pretty good to me. Found a mistake or two. However it's uncomfortable to browse through my iphone cause I can only see individual parts ( .pdfs) and it takes more time than I have.
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« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2014, 07:37:52 AM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:24:48 PM by zatch » Logged
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« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2014, 05:44:22 PM »

Thanks, guys.  I appreciate your effort.
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« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2014, 08:31:30 PM »


And it's important to note that the Beach Boys had something like ten albums already released before Carl was given a lead vocal on any of them. Maybe as much as the youngest sibling or defined role in the band issues are worth noting, maybe the missing factor is that his voice had not yet been developed and honed into the terrific voice we hear on God Only Knows.

The point I was trying to make, wasn't that Carl had a bad voice, or that Dennis had a better voice at the time... I just think that subconscously Brian would rely or lean on Dennis more than Carl because he was older.  Your observation that Dennis had leads before Carl did I think kind of supports that.

If the story with Audree begging Brian to include Dennis is true, that still could fit into my theory; once Dennis was in the group, Brian would still have relied on him more than his younger brother or gave him more respect than his younger brother when it came to business or something important that needed to be done.. which ultimately became the relative prominence in which he was placed in the harmony stack.   

Just a theory, could be completely wrong, i'm just making the point that since it's family, you have all kinds of dynamics going on between all the individuals, on top of the usual dynamics between friends, business aquaintences, and band members.  Yet another layer complicating things psychologically.
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« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2014, 08:33:38 PM »

Not exactly related to where Carl was in the vocal stack, but I always wondered if Carl having few lead vocals in the early days of the group was because of the presence of Murry, and Carl's attempts to avoid his wrath? We know that Dennis and Brian butted heads with Murry, but I wonder, for Carl, if taking a secondary role in the group allowed him to escape the negative attention of his father. Is it a coincidence that Carl became much more promient once Murry was no longer involved with the day to day managing of the band? Again, I have no evidence to back this up, just a theory--maybe unprovable--based on what I know of Carl's less confrontational temperment.

I think that's an interesting theory, and certainly plausible.  I once saw Michael Jackson talking about something similar, when he was a kid, his dad would beat his brothers, and say "Why can't you dance like Michael?" which made him want to underperform and not be as good as he was. 

Slightly different in Carl's situation and Murray of course was no Joe Jackson, but again : psychological sh*t involved i'm sure.
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« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2014, 08:45:20 PM »

BTW, for my third post, I'd just like to say that I think it's remarkable how similar all their voices could be at times.  There are songs that to this day, I literally cannot pick out who's singing what.  In something like "All I Wanna Do"... that could be Mike singing lead, it could be Al... Bruce could probably sound like that... I'm still not sure who's siging each verse on Sloop John B, it could be Brian, or Carl, in each verse.  Even Dennis' vocal on "Do You Wanna Dance"... we all know it's him, but he sounds like Brian, he sounds like Carl, and even Al sounds like that a little bit. 

There's absolutely NEVER been a band with vocal talent that deep.  Bruce was a fantastic singer, and he didn't do sh*t!  They never even used him, and his voice was better than almost anybody in any other band!  Even the mighty Temptations fall at the feet of the Beach Boys.  The band was so fantastic, we're actually saying, with a straight face, that Carl was insecure in the way his voice sounded.  That's remarkably ridiculous, but the rest of the band was so great that it's comprehensible that he felt that way.  Mike was one of the most famous leads in the world, but got kind of 'backseated' in his own band since everybody else sounded so fucking great.  It's just amazing that they had no formal training, but yet all sounded so great. 

The comparison always comes to the Beatles, but even if you wanted to stretch and say John and Paul had great voices, nobody would ever say George or Ringo had great voices.  I mean I love them to death, but it's just not NORMAL for a band to have 4, or 5, or 6 great vocalists in it, but yet the Beach Boys did.  The weakest guy had a voice good enough to be the lead singer in the Beach Boys. 
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« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2014, 06:52:35 PM »

I'm reviving this thread from a while ago, because there were differing opinions on the parts that Dennis and Carl sang on "In My Room". I've examined the vocal transcripts from the "OK Everybody, Sing Beach Boys!" website, and they're pretty interesting...

So according to these transcripts, Brian (singing the "high" part) starts the song on B in the first bar, then climbs to a starting note of D# in the second bar while Carl (singing what's described as the "baritone" part) enters a third below him, on a harmony identical to Brian's previous melodic line (in other words, starting on B). In the third bar, Dennis (singing the "tenor" part) takes over fom Brian on the D# line, while Brian climbs up to a high F# and Carl remains on B.

For the second and third verses, Carl sings a lower line in the first two bars, starting on E in the first bar (which makes sense, as it's the lowest part, a third down from Dennis's F#), but interestingly in these verses Carl doesn't climb up to to the B-based line in the second bar (like he did when he entered on bar two in the first verse); instead, Dennis sings that line now, while Carl continues to sing a third below him (starting on F#). In the third bar, Dennis climbs to the D# like he did when entering in verse one, while Carl takes over the B line, just as he remained on it in bar three of verse one.

So, in other words, Dennis is singing the second-highest part (below Brian) and Carl the third highest part (below Dennis). When performing the song live in the '70s, they switched parts (Dennis entering in the second bar, Carl in the third, with Al either singing lead or doubling Dennis's loosely-sung part when Brian or Bruce sang the lead).

Thoughts on the accuracy of this?



« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:18:19 AM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2014, 09:00:02 AM »

This continues to be a most interesting thread...and I'd still like to see Adam or one of our other top-notch musician/analysts do whatever amount of cross-era comparison in vocal arrangements that they can fit into their schedules. For me it would be interesting to know how the vocal arrangements changed (or didn't) based on the changing involvement of BW in the production process.

For example: Fun, Fun, Fun vs. Til I Die. Or: When I Grow Up vs. Marcella. Or: Please Let Me Wonder vs. All This Is That.

Or, whatever comparisons seem instructive and useful.
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« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2014, 04:02:23 PM »

this discussion I think clearly shows how songs like 'surfer girl' and 'in my room' seem
simple and easy on the ears....
are actually complex arrangements......and we all hear different things when comparing of 'who sang what'
and which notes overlap etc etc....

it would be great for one of boys to chime in, like 'foskett' or 'sahanaja'.....

im sure they would throw a different light on those sort of things also....... considering 'foskett' toured with the original Beach Boys...

RickB
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« Reply #89 on: April 13, 2014, 07:08:10 PM »

this discussion I think clearly shows how songs like 'surfer girl' and 'in my room' seem
simple and easy on the ears....
are actually complex arrangements......and we all hear different things when comparing of 'who sang what'
and which notes overlap etc etc....

it would be great for one of boys to chime in, like 'foskett' or 'sahanaja'.....

im sure they would throw a different light on those sort of things also....... considering 'foskett' toured with the original Beach Boys...

RickB

Jeff recorded a version of "The Warmth Of The Sun" which was preafced by him singing the individual parts for the BBC's Record Producers program in 2008 (sadly no longer available online):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00dhg79
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« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2014, 07:12:12 PM »

I'm reviving this thread from a while ago, because there were differing opinions on the parts that Dennis and Carl sang on "In My Room". I've examined the vocal transcripts from the "OK Everybody, Sing Beach Boys!" website, and they're pretty interesting...

So according to these transcripts, Brian (singing the "high" part) starts the song on B in the first bar, then climbs to a starting note of D# in the second bar while Carl (singing what's described as the "baritone" part) enters a third below him, on a harmony identical to Brian's previous melodic line (in other words, starting on B). In the third bar, Dennis (singing the "tenor" part) takes over fom Brian on the D# line, while Brian climbs up to a high F# and Carl remains on B.

For the second and third verses, Carl sings a lower line in the first two bars, starting on E in the first bar (which makes sense, as it's the lowest part, a third down from Dennis's F#), but interestingly in these verses Carl doesn't climb up to to the B-based line in the second bar (like he did when he entered on bar two in the first verse); instead, Dennis sings that line now, while Carl continues to sing a third below him (starting on F#). In the third bar, Dennis climbs to the D# like he did when entering in verse one, while Carl takes over the B line, just as he remained on it in bar three of verse one.

So, in other words, Dennis is singing the second-highest part (below Brian) and Carl the third highest part (below Dennis). When performing the song live in the '70s, they switched parts (Dennis entering in the second bar, Carl in the third, with Al either singing lead or doubling Dennis's loosely-sung part when Brian or Bruce sang the lead).

Thoughts on the accuracy of this?





I'm not sure what you mean. I'm reading the .pdf file and the second part (Carl's) is always above the third (Dennis').
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« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2014, 11:22:30 PM »

This continues to be a most interesting thread...and I'd still like to see Adam or one of our other top-notch musician/analysts do whatever amount of cross-era comparison in vocal arrangements that they can fit into their schedules. For me it would be interesting to know how the vocal arrangements changed (or didn't) based on the changing involvement of BW in the production process.

For example: Fun, Fun, Fun vs. Til I Die. Or: When I Grow Up vs. Marcella. Or: Please Let Me Wonder vs. All This Is That.

Or, whatever comparisons seem instructive and useful.

I've been on tour for the last six weeks, but C-Man sent me some interesting stuff to analyze that I still hope to get to between session work.  It's really interesting stuff!

Just a few random thoughts about the above:

It's my only semi-informed impression that after Brian "leaves" the band, Bruce then becomes the master vocal arranger in the group.  Now what I mean by that is not that Bruce did all the vocal arrangements, but he becomes the guy with the most chops to do it.  We have it on good authority that all the guys were so adept at harmony that they could just get around a mic and make something great happen, but that's not the same as sitting down and doing an ear chart (or a real chart) arrangement....an example of that would be the vocal breakdown in "Disney Girls", which doesn't sound improvised, but carefully planned out.  And very likely by Bruce.  Note that Bruce became a go-to session guy for soundalike Beach Boys vocals after he left the band, singing on quite a few records, contracting the singers, and arranging the vocals.

So what I note is that after Brian starts to fade out, you get more counterpoint vocal (the kind of thing where everyone gets around a mic and wings it, beautifully), and when Bruce is gone, you get a LOT of counterpoint vocals.  CARL & THE PASSIONS and HOLLAND have a lot more to do with interweaving individual parts than with group vocals, and I think that's partly the expanded memebership of the band and partly to do with there being no one (besides Brian) who really could sit down and arrange a vocal stack.
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« Reply #92 on: April 14, 2014, 06:18:31 AM »

I'm reviving this thread from a while ago, because there were differing opinions on the parts that Dennis and Carl sang on "In My Room". I've examined the vocal transcripts from the "OK Everybody, Sing Beach Boys!" website, and they're pretty interesting...

So according to these transcripts, Brian (singing the "high" part) starts the song on B in the first bar, then climbs to a starting note of D# in the second bar while Carl (singing what's described as the "baritone" part) enters a third below him, on a harmony identical to Brian's previous melodic line (in other words, starting on B). In the third bar, Dennis (singing the "tenor" part) takes over fom Brian on the D# line, while Brian climbs up to a high F# and Carl remains on B.

For the second and third verses, Carl sings a lower line in the first two bars, starting on E in the first bar (which makes sense, as it's the lowest part, a third down from Dennis's F#), but interestingly in these verses Carl doesn't climb up to to the B-based line in the second bar (like he did when he entered on bar two in the first verse); instead, Dennis sings that line now, while Carl continues to sing a third below him (starting on F#). In the third bar, Dennis climbs to the D# like he did when entering in verse one, while Carl takes over the B line, just as he remained on it in bar three of verse one.

So, in other words, Dennis is singing the second-highest part (below Brian) and Carl the third highest part (below Dennis). When performing the song live in the '70s, they switched parts (Dennis entering in the second bar, Carl in the third, with Al either singing lead or doubling Dennis's loosely-sung part when Brian or Bruce sang the lead).

Thoughts on the accuracy of this?





I'm not sure what you mean. I'm reading the .pdf file and the second part (Carl's) is always above the third (Dennis').

On the record, Carl's is the second voice to enter (after Brian's) and Dennis' is the third voice to enter. Carl enters in the second bar - that part is labeled as "Baritone" in the PDF and, once all three voices are singing, is the lowest of the three. Looking at the Vocal Score PDF, it's the bottom of the three, even though it enters second, not third. Dennis enters in the third bar - that part is labeled as "Tenor" in the PDF, and is the middle of the three voices in the Vocal Score.
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« Reply #93 on: April 14, 2014, 10:39:40 AM »

I'm reviving this thread from a while ago, because there were differing opinions on the parts that Dennis and Carl sang on "In My Room". I've examined the vocal transcripts from the "OK Everybody, Sing Beach Boys!" website, and they're pretty interesting...

So according to these transcripts, Brian (singing the "high" part) starts the song on B in the first bar, then climbs to a starting note of D# in the second bar while Carl (singing what's described as the "baritone" part) enters a third below him, on a harmony identical to Brian's previous melodic line (in other words, starting on B). In the third bar, Dennis (singing the "tenor" part) takes over fom Brian on the D# line, while Brian climbs up to a high F# and Carl remains on B.

For the second and third verses, Carl sings a lower line in the first two bars, starting on E in the first bar (which makes sense, as it's the lowest part, a third down from Dennis's F#), but interestingly in these verses Carl doesn't climb up to to the B-based line in the second bar (like he did when he entered on bar two in the first verse); instead, Dennis sings that line now, while Carl continues to sing a third below him (starting on F#). In the third bar, Dennis climbs to the D# like he did when entering in verse one, while Carl takes over the B line, just as he remained on it in bar three of verse one.

So, in other words, Dennis is singing the second-highest part (below Brian) and Carl the third highest part (below Dennis). When performing the song live in the '70s, they switched parts (Dennis entering in the second bar, Carl in the third, with Al either singing lead or doubling Dennis's loosely-sung part when Brian or Bruce sang the lead).

Thoughts on the accuracy of this?





I'm not sure what you mean. I'm reading the .pdf file and the second part (Carl's) is always above the third (Dennis').

On the record, Carl's is the second voice to enter (after Brian's) and Dennis' is the third voice to enter. Carl enters in the second bar - that part is labeled as "Baritone" in the PDF and, once all three voices are singing, is the lowest of the three. Looking at the Vocal Score PDF, it's the bottom of the three, even though it enters second, not third. Dennis enters in the third bar - that part is labeled as "Tenor" in the PDF, and is the middle of the three voices in the Vocal Score.

On the record, it is indeed Brian-Carl-Dennis. Dennis is always below Carl. The "everybody sings" website got that right in the "parts" pdf file (the last one in the list) where all voices are written down. The individual parts are mis-labeled, as it should read "tenor" where it reads "baritone". IMO
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« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2014, 04:16:26 AM »

Dr. Lenny, you wrote: <<On the record, it is indeed Brian-Carl-Dennis. Dennis is always below Carl. The "everybody sings" website got that right in the "parts" pdf file (the last one in the list) where all voices are written down. The individual parts are mis-labeled, as it should read "tenor" where it reads "baritone". IMO>>

But in their transcirpts (both the combined parts Vocal Score and the individual parts PDFs), the part that enteres in the SECOND bar (Carl) is LOWER than than the part that enters in the THIRD bar (Dennis). If you compare all the parts in the third bar, and look at the one that entered in the third bar. See what I mean? Their labeling the Carl part "Baritone" and the Dennis part "Tenor" makes sense (sort of) in this context, in that tenor is higher than baritone (even though they're both really tenor parts IMO). It would have been better for them to label them 1st Tenor and 2nd Tenor.
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« Reply #95 on: April 15, 2014, 06:31:58 AM »

C-man, gotcha. You're right. The part that enters second stays lower than the one that enters third. And if the second part is Carl and the third part is Dennis, the Dennis would be above Carl throughout.

That's a mistake, as far as I know. There's a few minor ones in the Surfer Girl transcript. The part that enters second, in the recording, is Carl. And he stays above the third part (Dennis) throughout.

This footage and audio illustrates it
http://youtu.be/bV-dWhYklqE
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« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2014, 04:36:31 AM »

C-man, gotcha. You're right. The part that enters second stays lower than the one that enters third. And if the second part is Carl and the third part is Dennis, the Dennis would be above Carl throughout.

That's a mistake, as far as I know. There's a few minor ones in the Surfer Girl transcript. The part that enters second, in the recording, is Carl. And he stays above the third part (Dennis) throughout.

This footage and audio illustrates it
http://youtu.be/bV-dWhYklqE

Interesting that in this video (new vocals over a new instrumental track) Al seems to be doubling Dennis when he enteres in the intro, and all five sing the bridge in unison (whereas on the record it seems to be just the Wilsons for the first five bars of the bridge, then Mike joins on the sixth bar).

So if Dennis' recorded part was lower than Carl's, I wonder why the two of them switched entrance points when performing it live in the late '70s and early '80s?
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« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2014, 05:20:26 AM »

Can you post a link to such live version?
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« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2014, 08:03:59 AM »

This continues to be a most interesting thread...and I'd still like to see Adam or one of our other top-notch musician/analysts do whatever amount of cross-era comparison in vocal arrangements that they can fit into their schedules. For me it would be interesting to know how the vocal arrangements changed (or didn't) based on the changing involvement of BW in the production process.

For example: Fun, Fun, Fun vs. Til I Die. Or: When I Grow Up vs. Marcella. Or: Please Let Me Wonder vs. All This Is That.

Or, whatever comparisons seem instructive and useful.

I've been on tour for the last six weeks, but C-Man sent me some interesting stuff to analyze that I still hope to get to between session work.  It's really interesting stuff!

Just a few random thoughts about the above:

It's my only semi-informed impression that after Brian "leaves" the band, Bruce then becomes the master vocal arranger in the group.  Now what I mean by that is not that Bruce did all the vocal arrangements, but he becomes the guy with the most chops to do it.  We have it on good authority that all the guys were so adept at harmony that they could just get around a mic and make something great happen, but that's not the same as sitting down and doing an ear chart (or a real chart) arrangement....an example of that would be the vocal breakdown in "Disney Girls", which doesn't sound improvised, but carefully planned out.  And very likely by Bruce.  Note that Bruce became a go-to session guy for soundalike Beach Boys vocals after he left the band, singing on quite a few records, contracting the singers, and arranging the vocals.

So what I note is that after Brian starts to fade out, you get more counterpoint vocal (the kind of thing where everyone gets around a mic and wings it, beautifully), and when Bruce is gone, you get a LOT of counterpoint vocals.  CARL & THE PASSIONS and HOLLAND have a lot more to do with interweaving individual parts than with group vocals, and I think that's partly the expanded memebership of the band and partly to do with there being no one (besides Brian) who really could sit down and arrange a vocal stack.

Thanks, Adam, interesting food for thought there. Could it also be the fact that there was a shift in Brian's songwriting style which began to strongly favor what we might call a "tag" (which Carl himself alludes to in one of the mid-70s interviews: "We're big tag fans") which are would seem to be more conducive to the interweaving approach as opposed to the "vocal stack" approach? Counterpoint substitute for "fatter" harmonic chording? What's the first example of the "counterpoint" approach--can we trace it back further than the overlapping vocal lines in something like "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times"??
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« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2014, 08:50:12 PM »

<<What's the first example of the "counterpoint" approach--can we trace it back further than the overlapping vocal lines in something like "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times"??>>

How about the overlapping vocal lines in "Catch A Wave"? That's a pretty early example of things to come...
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