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Author Topic: Why was Carl at the bottom of the harmony stack?  (Read 43314 times)
adamghost
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2014, 09:35:42 PM »

Oh, very interesting post GuitarFool...

Well, I'll tell you, I was all winding up with my answer and you hit it at the end before I could get there...I hinted at it in my earlier post.

You're talking about theory, and I'm talking about resonance, but honestly you can throw both those things in the complete garbage can if you have good TIME, and THAT is the thing that more than either of the two things we've been discussing combined that causes amateur musicians to fail.  It's why Dennis Wilson is one of my favorite drummers, and why a good chunk of my own work is drumming even though it's about my fourth or fifth instrument -- people can't keep a beat...and this is even more of a handicap in this day of digital recording when so much is done to a click (which, if used as such, can be the greatest aid to a person's musicianship they could find).

So yeah, I've seen that phenomenon sort of -- but what I've seen is a little more sideways than that.  There are always these guys that will immediately buy whatever the most expensive thing is at Guitar Center, or whatever vintage piece of what have you, but the SOUND just sucks -- forget about the rhythm.  Because either it's a very richly detailed piece of crap designed to pick the pockets of wealthy wannabee musician, or it's a very good piece of gear misused -- because the person using it can't distinguish a good or a bad sound.

It calls to mind when I got to co-produce for an extremely talented teen singer and her manager grilled me about how I got my sound:  "Do you go to tape?"  No, ProTools 7.2.  "Well, you must have a great board though."  No, I have one terrific preamp and it otherwise goes to the standard DAW inputs.  "Neve plugs?"  No, WAVES and Massey and the stock stuff.  He could not comprehend how the stuff sounded so analog when my gear was, for the most part, so generic (I've upgraded since to some better mics, but otherwiseit's not all that different now).  But the PROCESS of recording was old school -- how the tracks were performed and assembled and the attention to what mics are actually picking up.  My technical engineering knowledge is really very poor -- but I have first-rate ears and problem solving skills.  I don't mean to make it about myself, but I've just seen that people just are very susceptible to bells and whistles and not respecting the fundamentals.  There's nothing sexy to a 17 year old about keeping a straight 2/4 beat or about playing a great rhythm guitar line or cutting a track in 5 minutes without any mistakes.  It doesn't get you laid.  But the 1% that did go that route all became successful musicians and laid great tracks, I'll bet you that.

I think the thing that bums us both out is how easy it is to get caught up in b**sh*t that doesn't really matter -- and I do admit this discussion, on the level of its specifics and not what it says about sonority, is a little esoteric -- and miss the things that do.  I'm amazed at how many people can love truly great bands and make really, really bad music.  It isn't to devalue their listening experience or taste, but it's interesting how in their own creativity, their love for it and desire to imitate it doesn't translate into anything worthwhile, either on an individual level or copying level.  And it isn't about technical ability because I've heard some really awful musicians do some great music and really great ones do terrible music -- but it is about -- hmm, what should we call it?  Understanding what works, what translates?  Which gets into deeper psychological areas and...wow, really rambled.

Time.  That's my answer.  It's about good time, first and foremost, and then the stuff we've been batting around.  And that requires a desire to understand the music beyond what's immediately obvious and tangible, and see it as a two-way communication between performer and audience, and not a one-way communication (from the player or to the listner).
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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2014, 11:02:44 PM »

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adamghost
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« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2014, 01:06:02 AM »

Adam, struck yet another chord with me (not exact same scenario but reminds me of this). The keyboard player in my school's jazz band has been studying piano and theory for around 8-10 years. Very knowledgeable musician. CANNOT KEEP TIME. We did a latin tune in which the piano played a huge role rhythmically, and we totally fell apart every time we did it (other than at the performance, quite luckily). Then she'd drop out and come in in the middle of a bar as if it was the beginning of the bar, to top it all off. Made a bass player's life difficult. Grin

Good God, it sounds like hell!  I bet it did.  Great example of someone missing the big picture, right?

I've gotten to be a Nazi about time in the last six or seven years.  Groove is everything.  Thinking rhythmically has helped my playing tremendously -- and recording all the time you realize what makes a good track is playing articulated cleanly and with even time.  And then, of course, what's appropriate to the track, which often is simplifying the groove.  Half the time, if a track doesn't sound good, you think it's the engineering or the production, but it's usually somebody playing in sloppy time that's throwing everybody out.

People do not talk about the Wilsons as musicians much (as opposed to singers, writers or arrangers), but the brothers were MASTER underplayers.  Their tracks are just thick as pound cake.  They played dumb on purpose to serve the track - they wanted to leave room for the vocals and percussion.  Dennis' '70s drum tracks especially...love the way he played.  Big and bottom heavy and STOOPID and it just made the track come alive.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 01:11:53 AM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2014, 01:16:41 AM »

I feel like I'm hogging the thread now and going way off-topic, but I just have to add one thing. You think "simplifying the groove" and then you go, what about those great funk players that everybody talks about?  What about things like "Superstition" which is incredibly funky and yet time-wise is all over the place?

Well, the difference is evenness and consistency and a SENSE OF SPACE and most people that cop this stuff totally lose sight of that.  Folks want to play like Dave Matthews but don't want to bother sitting with a metronome.  They just want to get the feeling of playing busy and at a breakneck pace.  Well...

One time I was playing with a band and the band after us was a neo-funk unit in the Red Hot Chili Peppers mold.  The bass player had an ENORMOUS rig and yet no bottom end on his bass -- he had one of these twinky little basses that are all top and he couldn't stop noodling riffs on it.

I leaned over to the drummer from my band and said, "let me make this funky for you."  I then sang the guy's bass lines in his ear, except everytime I got to beat 4, I rested.  And then back on 1.  And there you have the difference between Bootsy, and this clown.  The idea that there would be value in a pause never occurred to this dude.  Or most people that want to play rhythmically complex music.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 01:18:41 AM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2014, 02:40:15 AM »

Here's a question:  How accurate are the parts in this link?
http://okeverybody.com/beach_boys/Surfer_Girl


If you haven't been to that site, take some time and look around.  One thing I found interesting was that it has both the 1966 and (live) 1973 arrangements for "Wouldn't It Be Nice".  Unfortunately for someone like me (who can't read music) most of them are no help, as "Surfer Girl" is one of the very few that breaks each song down with sound files for each individual vocal part.
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« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2014, 04:29:00 AM »

What part did Carl usually sing on Surfer Girl? The part directly below the lead? Because I always thought it was Al on that part, and that's exactly what he's singing in the '81 clip, if I remember correctly.
Should be noted that Al's voice is not on the 1963 hit recording of Surfer Girl.

Oops, yes, forgot about that. Thank you Jon.

>>Now, this crazy vocal from Brian allows for the parts to be clearly heard. The stack from top to bottom is clearly Brian-Carl-Al-Mike. But, correct me if I'm wrong, Al sings above Carl during the bridge (and coda).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDUAvCl87g&feature=youtube_gdata_player>>

OK, so if there were definitely five parts in at least some places, and you list only four vocalists here, would the fifth part be Dennis (and was Billy somehow in the mix in '77)? This is one of the few songs on which Dennis always sang live, when he was there (except for that '81 version where Al took Carl's part).

Well, I only hear four parts on the original recording. Zach hears five in certain spots; perhaps he can point some of them? And I also hear four on this version. The only places where I hear an extra fifth part is on certain live versions since the 80s, when Al sings a part in the coda that is not on the original recording. I think Dennis, when singing, sings the third part (the one he sang on the record) and Billy, if singing, may have doubled the second. Just speculating about Billy here. In truth, there is not much room in the stack for five parts except the coda and a few other spots where the lead soars significantly higher than the rest of the voices.  
Five parts, just bridge and fade. It would be pretty pretty involved to write out the parts of the fade (or at least more than I'm willing to do right now) so just bridge. But I definitely hear five in the fade as well.
On original, bridge:
Low (Mike):
G | A | D (lead into next bar using C#) | B
G | A | D (lead into next bar using C#) | C
G | A | D (lead into next bar using C#) | B
Back to four part harmony.

3rd voice: (Dennis):
(G = octave above Mike's G.)
G | A | F# | F#
G | A | F# | F#
G | A | F# | F#
Back to four part harmony.

2nd voice: (Carl):
B | C# | A | A
B | C# | A | A
B | C# | A | A
Back to four part harmony.

1st voice: (More than likely Brian):
D | E | C# | D
D | E | D | D
D | E | C# | D
Back to four part harmony.

The fifth voice is, of course, the lead. This was almost definitely recorded as a foursome, singing the four-part harmony, then Brian went back and overdubbed the lead at the bridge and the high "lead" part at the end. This is confirmed by the fact that you can hear Brian, singing the high part of the group vocal stack when the track kicks back in, and is overlapped by the "Little one" high vocal.

I'm sorry for going off-topic here, by the way.


Zach, thank you for taking the time to write the chart and illustrate your point. I finally had the time to sit and listen closely and have to agree 100% with you. There are five parts (i.e. four parts against the lead) in the bridge and in the coda. For whatever reason I find them easier to distinguish in the coda. The part above Mike's in the bridge I cannot listen clearly, but know it's there.

I'd like to raise a few points and correct a couple things I said.
I thought that, on stage and when not singing lead, Al sang a part in the coda I thought was not on the recording. I was WRONG. It is on the recording (the one right below Brian's). And since the possibility of Alan being there on the session has been posed, perhaps Al sings on stage the part he sang originally in the studio? It could also be, as Zach said, that Brian recorded with the foursome and then the lead. Or, more likely, since the vocals are doubled, maybe Carl sang two different parts in that section and thus we hear doubled Carls throughout and single Carls in the bridge and coda?

And I'd like to know what others think, but now I think it's possible that in the intro it is DENNIS who sings the 2nd part and not Carl, and then for the rest of the song he switches to 3rd part and Carl takes the 2nd. Carl sounds smooth throughout and it is unlikely that he break his voice in a Dennis-like fashion on the last note (E) of the intro. That's Dennis to me.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 04:43:43 AM by Dr. Lenny » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2014, 07:17:14 AM »

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Ron
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« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2014, 09:14:02 AM »

I'll give my point of view, which a bunch of people might not agree with but oh well here goes.

Carl was the youngest.  The youngest brother often doesn't get the respect he deserves, and often lives in the shadow of his older brothers when it comes to something they do together.  I work with my two brothers, and I am the oldeest of the three.  I get away with things that my younger brothers, and especially my youngest brother, can't.  My youngest brother almost feels a responsibility to work as hard as he can, he works much harder than I do. 

So Carl's place in the harmony stack is being insinuated as an inferior place to be, when he was certainly capable of more... that's in reaction to his two older brothers, he took a submissive place either consciously or subconsciously in their presence. 

I'll bet if you look at the songs Brian wasn't on, you'll see Carl took Brian's place for the most part.  By then, Dennis's vocals had changed to the ponit where he didn't sing in the harmony stack anymore. 

It's part of the dynamic of their family and them being brothers, of course none of it has to do though with their love or respect for each other, it's just natural for brothers to have a hiearachy.  Sorry for butchering the spelling of that.
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« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2014, 09:15:42 AM »

BTW, while I was typing that, I just got a text message from my younger brother.  He's at work.  I'm sitting at home watching Ice Skating, and my middle brother is out with his girlfriend.  That's my point. 

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« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2014, 09:25:35 AM »

I'll give my point of view, which a bunch of people might not agree with but oh well here goes.

Carl was the youngest.  The youngest brother often doesn't get the respect he deserves, and often lives in the shadow of his older brothers when it comes to something they do together.  I work with my two brothers, and I am the oldeest of the three.  I get away with things that my younger brothers, and especially my youngest brother, can't.  My youngest brother almost feels a responsibility to work as hard as he can, he works much harder than I do. 

So Carl's place in the harmony stack is being insinuated as an inferior place to be, when he was certainly capable of more... that's in reaction to his two older brothers, he took a submissive place either consciously or subconsciously in their presence. 

I'll bet if you look at the songs Brian wasn't on, you'll see Carl took Brian's place for the most part.  By then, Dennis's vocals had changed to the ponit where he didn't sing in the harmony stack anymore. 

It's part of the dynamic of their family and them being brothers, of course none of it has to do though with their love or respect for each other, it's just natural for brothers to have a hiearachy.  Sorry for butchering the spelling of that.

Interesting, Ron. However, if I recall correctly, it was Dennis who Audree had to beg Brian to be included in the group. And even though it sounds crude or simplistic, Dennis must have been -at that time- the least respected BB among his band mates, musically speaking.
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« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2014, 09:48:47 AM »

I'll give my point of view, which a bunch of people might not agree with but oh well here goes.

Carl was the youngest.  The youngest brother often doesn't get the respect he deserves, and often lives in the shadow of his older brothers when it comes to something they do together.  I work with my two brothers, and I am the oldeest of the three.  I get away with things that my younger brothers, and especially my youngest brother, can't.  My youngest brother almost feels a responsibility to work as hard as he can, he works much harder than I do. 

So Carl's place in the harmony stack is being insinuated as an inferior place to be, when he was certainly capable of more... that's in reaction to his two older brothers, he took a submissive place either consciously or subconsciously in their presence. 

I'll bet if you look at the songs Brian wasn't on, you'll see Carl took Brian's place for the most part.  By then, Dennis's vocals had changed to the ponit where he didn't sing in the harmony stack anymore. 

It's part of the dynamic of their family and them being brothers, of course none of it has to do though with their love or respect for each other, it's just natural for brothers to have a hiearachy.  Sorry for butchering the spelling of that.

Interesting, Ron. However, if I recall correctly, it was Dennis who Audree had to beg Brian to be included in the group. And even though it sounds crude or simplistic, Dennis must have been -at that time- the least respected BB among his band mates, musically speaking.

I would agree, Dr. Lenny. It's an interesting theory, Ron, and if it were your typical set of brothers that we're talking about, I'd say you probably got it, but Carl had been singing harmony with Brian for years, so the two of them singing together was quite a natural thing by this point - Dennis was, vocally, a "frog" in comparison, so one one think Brian had to bend his intuitive arrangement style just to "fit him in".
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« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2014, 10:43:52 AM »

On the topic of Carl's vocal role and the youngest brother issue, I think that has merit. But consider along with that the age issue of being the younger brother, and that Carl was still a teenager when Surfer Girl and the rest were recorded. I have no idea of the details but what if Carl's voice and vocal technique was still developing as he was growing up in his teenage years? Not only the usual puberty issues of the voice changing but also in developing his techniques as a singer. He obviously focused a lot of practice and work on his guitar playing, and the proof is on the records from 62-64 where he's playing lead lines that thousands of other guitarists were trying to copy, and he wasn't even 18 at the time. Maybe his vocals were still considered a supporting role, taking a back seat to his role as lead guitarist as well as his focus being more on the guitar than his voice...physical and musical reasons.

And it's important to note that the Beach Boys had something like ten albums already released before Carl was given a lead vocal on any of them. Maybe as much as the youngest sibling or defined role in the band issues are worth noting, maybe the missing factor is that his voice had not yet been developed and honed into the terrific voice we hear on God Only Knows.
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« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2014, 10:51:38 AM »

And it's important to note that the Beach Boys had something like ten albums already released before Carl was given a lead vocal on any of them.

Wait a minute -- what about "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie," not to mention "Girl Don't Tell Me"?! That's a lot fewer than 10 albums into the career.

You're speaking metaphorically, right?  Smiley

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« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2014, 10:56:34 AM »

And it's important to note that the Beach Boys had something like ten albums already released before Carl was given a lead vocal on any of them.

Wait a minute -- what about "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie," not to mention "Girl Don't Tell Me"?! That's a lot fewer than 10 albums into the career.

You're speaking metaphorically, right?  Smiley



No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".
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« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2014, 11:02:02 AM »

Not exactly related to where Carl was in the vocal stack, but I always wondered if Carl having few lead vocals in the early days of the group was because of the presence of Murry, and Carl's attempts to avoid his wrath? We know that Dennis and Brian butted heads with Murry, but I wonder, for Carl, if taking a secondary role in the group allowed him to escape the negative attention of his father. Is it a coincidence that Carl became much more promient once Murry was no longer involved with the day to day managing of the band? Again, I have no evidence to back this up, just a theory--maybe unprovable--based on what I know of Carl's less confrontational temperment.

Also-what exactly was Carl's relationship like with his father? I have read much about Murry's relationship with Dennis and Brian, but little about how he and Carl got along, or didn't get along. Wasn't Carl the only son to go to Murry's funeral? Was that because of real affection, a sense of obligation, or because of Audree?
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« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2014, 11:09:37 AM »

No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".

That still leaves "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie" -- both with prominent Carl leads being released less than ten albums into the career. Not to mention the duet with David on "Summertime Blues," with Carl as the top voice, on their FIRST album. He was being given a few leads early on.

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« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2014, 11:17:54 AM »

The reason Carl is less prominent in the early incarnation of the Beach Boys "vocal group" is absolutely because he didn't consider himself a singer. He wanted to be a great guitarist and that was his focus. Vocals were a chore that he did well enough to satisfy his big brother and musical mentor. Carl was passive in his early vocal role, blue collar, do the job, but his interest and passion was the guitar. That would change in a few years as his voice matured and his confidence as a singer grew. It became obvious he had a gift, and eventually the guitar took a backseat to his singing.
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« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2014, 11:21:15 AM »

No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".

That still leaves "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie" -- both with prominent Carl leads being released less than ten albums into the career. Not to mention the duet with David on "Summertime Blues," with Carl as the top voice, on their FIRST album. He was being given a few leads early on.



I think we're getting into semantics here.  Smiley   Those feature Carl, but not as the primary lead, the featured driving vocal of the song. Apart from Brian and Mike, the lead vocalists in the group, if we look at Dennis getting the lead on "Do You Wanna Dance", Al getting one on the Christmas album and then Help Me Rhonda, Carl didn't get his big chance to be featured lead until "Girl Don't Tell Me".
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« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2014, 11:27:54 AM »

I see your point guitarfool, but I still disagree about "Pom Pom Playgirl." Carl's lead is prominent on PPP. But I agree with Jon about him wanting to focus on being a guitarist early on.

Enough with the sidebar on this thread. Back to your interesting discussion on BB harmony.

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« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2014, 11:30:33 AM »

I see your point guitarfool, but I still disagree about "Pom Pom Playgirl." Carl's lead is prominent on PPP. But I agree with Jon about him wanting to focus on being a guitarist early on.

Enough with the sidebar on this thread. Back to your interesting discussion on BB harmony.



It's a cool sidebar, though!  Smiley  I'm also going by the liner notes in the old 2-fers, on Pom Pom Playgirl it credits Brian as the lead.
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« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2014, 11:33:41 AM »

Those 2-fer credits were wrong. The PPP lead has since been corrected to Carl in subsequent releases.

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« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2014, 11:35:12 AM »

No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".

That still leaves "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie" -- both with prominent Carl leads being released less than ten albums into the career. Not to mention the duet with David on "Summertime Blues," with Carl as the top voice, on their FIRST album. He was being given a few leads early on.



I think we're getting into semantics here.  Smiley   Those feature Carl, but not as the primary lead, the featured driving vocal of the song. Apart from Brian and Mike, the lead vocalists in the group, if we look at Dennis getting the lead on "Do You Wanna Dance", Al getting one on the Christmas album and then Help Me Rhonda, Carl didn't get his big chance to be featured lead until "Girl Don't Tell Me".
I'm confused...you don't consider "Little Girl", "Surfers Rule", "This Car Of Mine", or "The Wanderer" to be featured Dennis leads?
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« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2014, 11:39:28 AM »

No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".

That still leaves "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie" -- both with prominent Carl leads being released less than ten albums into the career. Not to mention the duet with David on "Summertime Blues," with Carl as the top voice, on their FIRST album. He was being given a few leads early on.



I think we're getting into semantics here.  Smiley   Those feature Carl, but not as the primary lead, the featured driving vocal of the song. Apart from Brian and Mike, the lead vocalists in the group, if we look at Dennis getting the lead on "Do You Wanna Dance", Al getting one on the Christmas album and then Help Me Rhonda, Carl didn't get his big chance to be featured lead until "Girl Don't Tell Me".
I'm confused...you don't consider "Little Girl", "Surfers Rule", "This Car Of Mine", or "The Wanderer" to be featured Dennis leads?

I was just using "Dance" as an example of one where he was the prominent lead singer. I could have picked any of the others too.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 11:40:58 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2014, 11:43:18 AM »

Those 2-fer credits were wrong. The PPP lead has since been corrected to Carl in subsequent releases.

Sounds good to me, corrected!

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« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2014, 11:48:20 AM »

No, I mean they were ten album releases into their run before Carl got the lead on "Girl Don't Tell Me".

That still leaves "Pom Pom Playgirl" and "Louie, Louie" -- both with prominent Carl leads being released less than ten albums into the career. Not to mention the duet with David on "Summertime Blues," with Carl as the top voice, on their FIRST album. He was being given a few leads early on.



I think we're getting into semantics here.  Smiley   Those feature Carl, but not as the primary lead, the featured driving vocal of the song. Apart from Brian and Mike, the lead vocalists in the group, if we look at Dennis getting the lead on "Do You Wanna Dance", Al getting one on the Christmas album and then Help Me Rhonda, Carl didn't get his big chance to be featured lead until "Girl Don't Tell Me".
I'm confused...you don't consider "Little Girl", "Surfers Rule", "This Car Of Mine", or "The Wanderer" to be featured Dennis leads?

I was just using "Dance" as an example of one where he was the prominent lead singer. I could have picked any of the others too.
I see.
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