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Author Topic: Why was Carl at the bottom of the harmony stack?  (Read 43303 times)
MarcellaHasDirtyFeet
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« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2014, 11:23:26 AM »

Speaking of that early "Wonderful" version...C-man, have I been wrong for a few decades of enjoying that track to think that's Bruce singing the descending wordless melody counterpoint part? I've never asked that!

The SMiLE version? Yeah, that's Bruce, supported by the others on the yodeling bit.

YES! I've been wondering this as well, thanks guitarfool and c-man! Bruce was Brian's go-to voice when he needs a different, non-Wilson (or Al "Wilson" Jardine) texture, and he seems to reprise this Cali. Girls, GOK role regularly on the Smile stuff-- at least, I think that's him I keep hearing in front of the rest of the vocal stack.

The Wonderful counterpoint was one of my strong suspicions, and many of the different H&V chants/"Gee" variations seem to have something similar going on. But I'm never quite sure... Are there some points where Dennis does those "Ba-ba ba, ba, ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba"s?

I fear I will spend the rest of my life trying to decode these vocal arrangements... Just being able to readily identify each band member in the stack has been torturing me for three years, and I have a looooooong way to go yet.
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c-man
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« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2014, 04:12:31 AM »

<<Are there some points where Dennis does those "Ba-ba ba, ba, ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba"s?>.

Probably, since Bruce dropped out of the "SMiLE" sessions sometime around March or April (I'd have to look at the sessionography again to know for sure when).

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adamghost
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« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2014, 06:12:05 PM »

<<Are there some points where Dennis does those "Ba-ba ba, ba, ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba"s?>.

Probably, since Bruce dropped out of the "SMiLE" sessions sometime around March or April (I'd have to look at the sessionography again to know for sure when).



Really?  Now that's extraordinary.  Do we know more about this?

Bruce was acting with shocking autonomy in mid-'67 for a guy whose position in the band was what it was.  He's not on SMILEY SMILE in any real way, and declined to go to Hawaii.  IIRC he also went to Europe to hawk some of his tunes, though I could be mixing that up with something else.

Seems like Bruce came VERY close to being out of the band in the summer of 1967.
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c-man
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« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2014, 08:40:01 PM »

<<Are there some points where Dennis does those "Ba-ba ba, ba, ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba"s?>.

Probably, since Bruce dropped out of the "SMiLE" sessions sometime around March or April (I'd have to look at the sessionography again to know for sure when).



Really?  Now that's extraordinary.  Do we know more about this?

Bruce was acting with shocking autonomy in mid-'67 for a guy whose position in the band was what it was.  He's not on SMILEY SMILE in any real way, and declined to go to Hawaii.  IIRC he also went to Europe to hawk some of his tunes, though I could be mixing that up with something else.

Seems like Bruce came VERY close to being out of the band in the summer of 1967.

He was uncomfortable with the "pharmaceuticals". Same reason he was absent from the "Smiley Smile" sessions and "Lei'd In Hawaii". As he told Brad Elliott in '81, that was the Beach Boys' "drug era", and it was not his scene. He did fly to London to promote the "H&V" single, like he did with "Pet Sounds" the year before.
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Mitchell
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« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2014, 07:11:17 PM »

Back to the subject of Mike's "secret falsetto", listening to Smiley Smile today I picked up on what I think was a Mike  falsetto on She's Going Bald, the "upside your heeeaaad" bit (doubling Brian). Thoughts?
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« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2014, 07:16:12 PM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:14:01 PM by zatch » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #131 on: April 25, 2015, 05:02:27 PM »

I'm resurrecting this thread after almost a year of dormancy, as I still find it uber-fascinating. Particularly in regards to songs where it kinda sounds like Al and Dennis are both singing at different spots, but we know it's only four parts, with Brian, Carl and Mike all unquestionably present. One solution that I've hinted at: Brian had Al doubling Dennis, as Al's voice was steadier and he was better with pitch. And maybe one or the other came through a bit stronger at certain points, hence the confusion as to which of them it was. I believe that was definitely the case some of the time, but maybe not all of the time. Which brings me to my current question: what is everyone's opinion on the following songs: Al, Dennis, or maybe both?:

CATCH A WAVE
OUR CAR CLUB
SURFERS RULE
BE TRUE TO YOUR SCHOOL
BALLAD OF OLE' BETSY
LITTLE SAINT NICK

« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 06:16:12 PM by c-man » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2015, 03:38:31 AM »

What, no takers? As an added incentive - it'll help me get the MIC Online Sessionography done faster!
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Alan Smith
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« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2015, 09:21:08 PM »

 LOL Hey c-man; I was going to respond, but I thought "better not distract him from getting the MIC gear out".

Here are my quick notes, hopefully to encourage brighter sparks than I to chime in.  I sourced the '01 twofers, some UM session tracks and the Singles box for L'il Nick:

CATCH A WAVE - is this the one that kicked off your theory? Denny and Al certainly do pop in and out, although I don't know if they're intentionally doubling.  I hear Al prominently on the "On Top" lines (not the stack), singing closer to Brian than Dennis.

OUR CAR CLUB - I hear Al "Wipe out, the other clubs" (left channel) and Al second from top in the stack, but don't get the feeling their was any doubling goin' on

SURFERS RULE - Is Al even on this track?  I hear the other guys, but Al is either blended incredibly well or not there, IMO of course.

BE TRUE TO YOUR SCHOOL - I hear very little of Denny on this one, although there are a couple of low ahhs that sound like him.  This makes me think Denny was partnered with Carl, and Al was working with Brian, particularly going up on the sis-boom bahs, while Dennis/Carl types were going down (the musical scale).  Is that Mike who keeps bumping the mic?  I also listened to the single version, but the original bv's are bounced down and rendered quite soupy, so no clues there.

BALLAD OF OLE' BETSY - the opposite of SURFERS RULE, I struggle to hear Denny on the bulk of this one, although I can hear him over the the right in the "Betsy was a lady..." refrain or whatever it that bit is.  Brian have a cold coming on?

LITTLE SAINT NICK - again, there are some bits I think are Dennis, but they could be Carl, or even Mike (ie, low during first 3 run run Reindeer bits, with Mike obviously on the last r-r-r.

Hope that doesn't blow the schedule for ya - A
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c-man
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« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2015, 03:51:42 AM »

Thanks, Alan. Appreciate the time and perspective!
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adamghost
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« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2015, 08:07:09 AM »

Craig, I'm on tour in Europe right now, but I will try to make some time when I get back to lend an ear if it is helpful.
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c-man
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« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2015, 08:08:32 AM »

Craig, I'm on tour in Europe right now, but I will try to make some time when I get back to lend an ear if it is helpful.

Always appreciated, Adam! Sorry for the epic fail in Coppenhagen, but hey - you tried!
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c-man
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« Reply #137 on: May 31, 2015, 01:55:39 PM »

Incidentally, Adam, now that you're (hopefully) off the road for awhile...might you have time to take a go at the above?  Smiley
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adamghost
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« Reply #138 on: May 31, 2015, 03:10:01 PM »

Yeah, think so - I'm in R 'n' R mode right now, might have a go.  My best headphones are shot though, sadly.  I have to get them replaced.  But I have some decent backups.
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adamghost
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« Reply #139 on: June 01, 2015, 01:28:30 AM »

OK C-Man...giving it a go.

CATCH A WAVE - You know, I would buy this.  It really does sound like a Dennis/Al hybrid on the top of the stack (meaning the part below Brian).  Almost like one sang the mono, and the other sang the double.

OUR CAR CLUB - OK, I'm not sure what's going on here, but I'm not so sure it's Al second from the top on the verses; it sounds more like Carl to me, though that part is a bit buried.  What I think happens is that on the turnarounds ("we'll get the finest cars") it expands to a five part harmony, and that's where I hear Al, sounding almost like an overdub (not to say that it was, but more like a lead line over backing vocal part in terms of the movement).  I don't think they're doubling each other, but it definitely sounds like the harmony expands there and Al comes in at that point.

SURFERS RULE - Yeah, I hear what you're hearing.  It does sound like that there's more than one person doubling the bottom of the triad (in fact, it kind of buries the middle harmony, which is a problem when you do this kind of thing - putting more than one person on a part can blow the balance).  And it does indeed sound like Al and Dennis.  (Though the middle harmony is so indistinct I couldn't verify whether it's Carl or my mom or even present).

BE TRUE - Which one are we talking about?  I'm guessing the album version, because that does sound a lot sloppier with the same kind of imbalance on "Surfer's Rule" (the single is a lot tighter vocally as well as instrumentally).  Again, the middle harmony is almost non-existent (I most notice it at 1:16 because it enters late).  It doesn't sound like Dennis-Al doubling to me though.  It actually sounds from bottom to top like Dennis-Carl-and then Brian and Al doubling the top vocal, with Brian breaking off at the end to do the falsetto.  Definitely sounds like five parts at the end to me.  Now as I listen to the beginning, something weird is happening there.  It sounds like Dennis goes down, with the rest of the vocals going up.  So it may be at the top Dennis and Al are there on the same first note, and then they split on the second note (Dennis down, Al up).  So my best guess is all five of them are there, and Al is floating around doubling various people until the end.

LITTLE SAINT NICK - Wow, Carl unusually loud on this one for an early track!  That's helpful (can barely hear him on the other ones).  

OK, I'm not 100% sure Al is on this one.  It definitely it sounds like he's there, but it might be an auditory illusion.  If he is on this one, I think what's happening is he's doubling Carl, then Dennis (who's below Carl), in succession, on the verses - it would be a pedal tone in both cases, so it would make sense - it would be a really easy part to fly in and reinforce.  At the top and the end, it also sounds like he's there.  What I think may be happening is the other guys are moving, and Al is being given a pedal tone (e.g. staying on the same note, or close to it) part, that is technically doubling this or that harmony as it is moving but is adding thickness and tension by staying static through the movement.

BETSY - OK, this one is peculiar because who in the dickens is on top during the verses?  It doesn't sound like anyone in the group - in fact it sounds to me like a female singer.  Was Marilyn singing with them at this point?  It sounds like her.  Sounds like the same person holding the top note at the end - that ain't Brian.  You can hear Brian and the maybe-Marilyn doubling briefly on the same note at 2:05 ("groWING...")

At that same spot I do believe I hear Al clearly.  He's (interestingly) second from bottom, and the double is loose, but it sounds like a timing error and not because there's a second person on the part.

The only place we can hear the vocals clearly is at the end, and here's what I'm hearing:
top (pedal tone) - maybeMarilyn
top descending (faint) - Brian
next harmony down - almost inaudible.  No idea.  I can hear this singer on the previous "growing" part OK, but I can't ID them.
next harmony down - Al (also sounds slightly like Carl, but more like Al, and this would follow logically from the previous harmony)
bottom - Mike

So this one's real interesting, because I'm hearing Al, Mike, Brian, what sounds like a female singer, and someone on the second to top harmony I can't positively identify as Dennis or Carl.  It definitely sounds like Dennis is in there at 1:22.  Is it possible Carl is absent here, hence the female ringer?  (Wait a minute, could it be Audree?  It actually does sound a little like her, come to think of it)

So anyway, C-Man, what I'm hearing is that rather than doubling any one person, Al may have originally been deployed as a guy to hold a pedal tone or simple part that cuts across a larger moving part.  So he'd technically be doubling someone else, but the effect would be to add complexity to the stack by not moving in tandem with the other guys.  So in other words, you might have Mike moving down, the Wilsons moving up, and Al kind of staying put.  It's a logical way to deploy him.  I don't mean it worked exactly that way, but listening to these tracks, it sounds like that may have been the basic concept.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:45:25 AM by adamghost » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #140 on: June 01, 2015, 03:20:31 AM »

Thanks, Adam - you're the best! And yes, it definitely sounds like Mare on "BOOB" (wow, just now realized the irony of that acronym!). I'll have to listen to it again to consider the possibility of it being Audree!
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« Reply #141 on: June 01, 2015, 04:15:16 AM »

I also hear that high falsetto that's not Brian on "No-Go Showboat".  Could also be on other tracks from LDC.
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