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Author Topic: Why was Carl at the bottom of the harmony stack?  (Read 43302 times)
adamghost
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« on: January 03, 2014, 01:45:09 AM »

I'm going throw out a really, really wonky question that is probably only going to interest hardcore harmony buffs and musicians.  

Typically, the Beach Boys harmony stack had a particular structure in terms of who sang in what range.  Mike was nearly always on bottom (Dennis took this role a few times, most notably on FRIENDS when Mike was away).  Brian of course was on top.  The next voice under Brian was first Dennis', and then Al's (Dennis then would tend to sing in the baritone range above Mike, or the simplest vocal part like a pedal tone, or not at all).  One thing that rarely changed, unless he was needed for a particularly difficult part, was where Carl was.  Carl was at the bottom of the fundamental triad that was formed by his, Al's and Brian's voices (though in the arrangements sometimes Brian would leave the triad and Mike's voice would come up from the bottom register to compensate).

So here's the question:  Carl had one of the best ranges in the group.  He could sing higher than Dennis and just as high as Al (and in later years his range held up better than Al's).  Moreover, his baritone voice was just so-so...Dennis was a stronger singer in that range.  So why did Carl take the LOW harmony of the main triad, nearly invariably?

Now the first obvious answer is:  that was where the blend was the best.  But Carl assumed this role very early on, and it was Dennis in the middle tenor harmony role, which is an odd place for Dennis to be as he had to sing in a higher register and though he improved markedly he had a less flexible voice than his brothers and less control (his singing on "409" is particularly brutal).

I have a few theories, but I'm interested in hearing what everyone else has to say.  Here are my bullet points:

1.  I know from experience that if you have a pitchy singer (who can nonetheless hold a harmony) in the triad, the best way to deal with them bury him in the middle around two better singers.  They may have compensated for Dennis' early shortcomings by sticking him in a Wilson harmony sandwich.

2.  Again from experience, if you are singing the Beach Boys' stuff, Carl's part is the easiest to sing technically (although sometimes it's complicated to remember).  It's an easy singing range and it may be given Carl's primary musician role in the group, including sometimes playing lead guitar in the studio while cutting the harmonies, he wanted to be in a "no brainer" mindset for singing since he had to focus on playing guitar and leading the band much of the time.

3.  It's the anchor part in a harmony, and that was Carl's psychological role in the band.

4.  Although Carl clearly could sing in the top register beautifully (e.g. "Good Timin'", "Surf's Up"), there's some evidence from a close listen to the tapes that while he was effortless up until about a B4, he struggled slightly to get in the register above that (and I can relate).  It's not to say that he couldn't do it, and nail it...just that he had to work for it a bit.  It may be that he just didn't want to sing up there all the time and kill his voice, and he seems to only have sung in that register when there wasn't somebody else around (Brian, Bruce, Al, Billy, Marilyn) who could do it.

Any other thoughts?  BTW, after having closely analyzed a lot of the Beach Boys' harmony arrangements, I've realized a few of my favorite Beach Boys vocal moments are in fact largely Carl multitracks, so smoothly done that it's not obvious he is the main one, or the only one, singing.  (I suspect the gorgeous second verse of "Where I Belong", for example, is all Carl...and many of the terrific harmonies on LIGHT ALBUM are multitracked Carl with help from Bruce).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 01:51:05 AM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 02:55:51 AM »

Interesting thoughts! From the bullet points, I'd lean more toward example #2, I'll back that up later.

I think the obvious blend reason is just that, it's the obvious reason because it simply worked and sounded good from the early days - why change something that worked with such a devastating effect? Whatever Brian had them doing was their signature sound, maybe the thought was why try to change it even if a certain range fit a certain singer more naturally when what they produced was the golden ticket?

But consider alongside blend the issues of resonance. We know Brian had a keen if not highly sensitive ear for the way combinations of sounds resonated, both with each other and in certain rooms. We hear this probably most famously as he's setting up the instrumental players throughout Pet Sounds, setting levels and positioning sections at their microphones. Remember the accordions resonating throughout Gold Star on Wouldn't It be Nice's session tapes? Brian all but freaks out with how perfect those notes were bouncing around the room - same with Sloop John B and the flutes - he was just tuned into the intricacies of the way his parts would resonate and react. I think the same effect was at play as he dealt out the vocal parts to the Boys - we just don't get to hear that stage of the process unfolding as we do those instruments on Pet Sounds, but I have no doubt even in the Wilson home when he'd be arranging those parts, his ear was hearing the vibrations and the interactions as they hit those great chords with their voices. And he may have gotten an early education on what combinations delivered that "x factor" that happened above and beyond the guys hitting the right notes in tune. That's deep into the sonics and acoustics of it, and in this case it seemed to be instinct versus the study of sound and physics and acoustics that made Brian so tuned into this often neglected aspect of group music.

I mentioned early years, let's even go back to the Wilson bedroom and family singalongs when Brian cut his teeth on arranging techniques with his family as the test subjects. Carl was young - younger than I think we realize - and what happens with boys around age 12 or 13? Remember Peter Brady on that classic episode when his voice changes the week of a big TV show gig? What if Carl, the youngest voice, was limited by the simple biology of being 13 or 14 where his voice and range was in flux while Dennis and Brian had already developed their adult voices in their later teen years? So he'd get parts that were in the range of his voice where it wouldn't crack and go crazy like Peter Brady's did (joking there...), and it just happened to be in a range that fit the sound and blend perfectly...so they kept it that way. That's a wild card, but again consider Carl was 14 when the records first came out.

Back to example #2 - I think this has a lot of merit. In a similar way, when I started getting into learning big band and larger ensemble arranging and writing, one of my teachers said you never have your band's "screaming" high trumpet player taking "trumpet 1", which was the lead role in that section. That was a mistake a lot of novices made - you had a guy who was the showcase trumpet (or other horn), with that screaming high range, you'd think he'd be "lead" because he had that skill and was the soloist. But the teacher said you give him trumpet 3 or 4, a more simple part playing a support role in the harmonies.

Why was that, I think we all wondered...simple logic. If you have charts written to feature your showman, your screamer trumpet guy, why would you have him reading the most taxing lead part in the section instead of saving him, his breath, and his stamina for those screaming leads and standout solos, which is why he was there playing the charts in the first place? Give the lead part to a strong reader with great intonation for the section to blend and phrase with, and save the most physically demanding yet most impressive part by having him play simpler support lines.

What you said about Carl's role as lead guitarist really struck a chord (no pun intended!), and it reminded me of that big band arranging "unwritten rule" that you don't overexert your soloist. I see Carl's stage role just as you described. He had his hands full playing the more challenging lead parts on his guitar, parts which may include him needing to actually look down at his guitar neck to get it right, which means he wouldn't be as able to focus on the more challenging harmony parts and phrases that a support guitar like Al could handle more easily.

If you want Carl's lead guitar work to be featured on stage, you don't weigh the kid down with the most shifting and jumping harmony phrases and instead give him the more basic, perhaps more static harmony part so he could do his thing on guitar.

That, again, really hit the mark, I think. The Beach Boys harmonies were designed to perform live when they only existed as a self-contained band, and again no matter what was possible later in the studio that magic combination they had early on worked so well, I don't think anyone wanted to change it, even if another voice would have been a more natural fit.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 02:58:11 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 09:25:16 AM »

Interesting topic, Adam. And that's a question I would ask Brian if I ever have the chance.

I don't think Carl was given his parts because of the difficulties of singing the immediate upper part and while playing his guitar parts. Reason for this is that Carl was an extraordinary (natural?) harmony singer, trained practically since childhood. By all reports, he was extremely adept at learning his parts and there's no reason to think he could have not sung Al's parts while playing. This may be inaccurate, but I always thought that Carl was more of a natural harmony singer than Al (who is also excellent, of course). Also, it is likely that Al's voice when he was 20-22 did not sound strong  to Brian's ear in the lower register. Al's voice had a certain "rasp" and it may not be coincidential that he took raspy Dennis' former parts.

I think this has more to do with some of the other reasons stated: namely, that Brian liked the way Carl's voice rang in that range. The matter of age and a not-yet-fully-developed voice comes to mind, but as time passed, Carl remained under Al's part mostly.

From my experience, being a tenor myself, I find Carl's parts the toughest to sing in terms of intonation and diction, as they sometimes fall into the lower part of the tenor range, sometimes very close to the bass. I think it requires a highly trained and adept singer to master those parts, and that's what Brian found in his baby brother.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 09:26:34 AM by Dr. Lenny » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 10:04:45 AM »

I think at least part of the reason might be that Carl had such beautiful tone and strength in that particular range, which made him such a great anchor voice.

Nice thread, Adam!

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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2014, 11:40:44 AM »

Yes, a very interesting topic for sure. And I think the answer might well be found in whatever changes in the structure might have come about over time. Is the blend that Adam identified the same across the spectrum from, say, "Surfin' USA" to "Break Away"?

Another question--how were the blends restructured when Brian was no longer on the road? What kind of differences/reworks/conpensations can be discerned in the live band work up through, say, late 1969, before the shift toward more back-up singers became more prominent and noticeable?

Who made those decisions for the band after that point in time? Was Carl figuring out how "the blend" would work on the road and how did it shift as personnel was added (first additional back-up singers, then the shift from Bruce to Blondie, and then back to a band mostly featuring the band minus Brian?

And clearly by the time of LA, Carl (and Bruce) had completely taken over the vocal arranging chores, and much of that seamless work may have come about from necessity rather than active choice. (I recall Bruce being quoted back in the day about how they replaced Brian's high part on "Surf's Up" so that no one would supposedly be able to tell that he wasn't on the tag...how does that "Child" tag play out in terms of who's where in the blend structure? Isn't that Al singing the lead?)

What would be really be interesting, Adam--if you had the time to go a bit further with this--would be to ID some specific examples of the different manifestations of the "blend" in particular songs.

This topic has a great deal of potential...hope all of the really trained ears here will come out and tackle this subject.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2014, 12:17:14 PM »

Wow!  Great responses.

Don, great questions and in terms of who sang what where, it gets a bit murkier once Bruce is in the band, though Carl's functionality in the harmony stack, when he wasn't overdubbing himself, seems to have been about the same.  I just came off a gig where my band did 50 Beach Boys songs and it's a lot easier, from having gone through the harmonies, to say "Carl did this and Al did that" before Bruce gets into the band and they start getting into a lot of 5- and 6-part things on PET SOUNDS and work more with counterpoint, which they increasingly did as they got into the '70s.  If I had the time I'd like to sit down and work out who's singing what on some of the trickier parts though of course sometimes it's hard to tell -- but what seems to have happened after '67 is that you had six guys who could sing, and a bunch of different people producing individual tracks, so whoever is around is who would sing on it, since usually you didn't need all six guys vocally (although there's a lot of that on SUNFLOWER, one reason that album sounds so rich).  So for example in '69 you might have a track where Brian and Dennis weren't around, so it was voiced Mike-Carl-Al-Bruce or something like that.  Or there might be a track with just the Wilsons, or the Wilson with Mike, without Al and/or Bruce.  What is more interesting to me is Bruce doesn't seem to have always taken the top harmony.  Al did most of Brian's falsetto stuff live, of course, but you only hear Bruce on top about, say, 25% of the time or so.

From what I can tell, Bruce served as a bit of a ringer.  Vocally, Carl was always present post '66 (unless it was a Brian or Dennis solo track, but often still in those cases), and Al and Mike most of the time.  Bruce, like Carl, was apparently a very quick learner and facile singer which is why he was most likely used in Dennis' place on a lot of the PET SOUNDS tracks.  So once Bruce is in the band there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules about who sang where (other than, basically, Mike and Carl being towards the bottom), it seems to have been dictated mostly by who happened to show up to the session.

A few examples, these are just mental overviews without me having actually gone back and listened, so don't nitpick it TOO much --
SMILEY SMILE - no Bruce.
WILD HONEY - not much Dennis vocally.
FRIENDS - Dennis is on bottom for a number of the tracks instead of Mike.
20/20 - Depends on the track
SUNFLOWER - Everybody present for the most part.
SURF'S UP - not much Dennis.  (Brian is actually on a lot of the tracks)
CARL & THE PASSIONS - mostly counterpoint vocals, not a lot of harmonies.  Generally only 1-3 members singing per track except for the Brian-penned tunes.  Significantly, with Bruce and Steve Desper both out of the band dynamic the richness of the vocal blend seems to take a hit, and the band does a lot more individual counterpoint vocalizing a la "Marcella".
HOLLAND - Seems to have been a lot of self-overdubbing and more than usual outside singers on this one, with the same multiple counterpoint thing going on with "Funky Pretty".
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 12:19:54 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2014, 01:38:15 PM »

I think maybe it's because Carl was the most tentative singer, or most shy etc when they first started, so (keeping in mind his personality as we know it) it never really changed unless Carl was singing lead. He had such an amazing voice as a lead singer, it's easy to imagine him being completely agreeable when it came to the vocal stack and letting the other guys shine.

Just my two cents.
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2014, 01:38:05 PM »

Wow, I had no idea Carl sang lower. 

This is how I've always heard it.

Take "In My Room":

Brian ends up highest, then Carl, then Dennis and Al, and then Mike.

"Help Me, Rhonda" (in the backing)

Brian highest, Carl right under, Al (lead), Dennis, Mike.

and then in the refrain: Brian highest, Al (lead), Carl, Dennis, and Mike.

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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2014, 03:28:47 PM »

Wow, I had no idea Carl sang lower.  

This is how I've always heard it.

Take "In My Room":

Brian ends up highest, then Carl, then Dennis and Al, and then Mike.

"Help Me, Rhonda" (in the backing)

Brian highest, Carl right under, Al (lead), Dennis, Mike.

and then in the refrain: Brian highest, Al (lead), Carl, Dennis, and Mike.



Actually, on the intro to "In My Room", Dennis sings a higher part then Carl. Brian starts it, of course, then Carl comes in on a higher part, then Dennis comes in on the highest of the three parts. Then Mike comes in low and and it seems Carl and Dennis shift down to parts lower than Brian, with Dennis probably lower than Carl, and doubled by Al - which is what I think you were getting at. When they sang the song live in the '70s and very early '80s, Dennis and Carl switched parts in the intro, obviously because by then Dennis' voice was much deeper (or hoarse, if you prefer).

On "Surfer Girl", doesn't Carl sing the part immediately below Brian's, with Dennis down one from him?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 05:19:40 PM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2014, 05:11:39 PM »

Great topic and a very interesting read. These discussions justify checking out this board. Smiley

I was unaware of this as to these ears that trio of harmony (Carl, Brian and Al) are so perfectly woven together I struggle to pick out the individual parts.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 05:12:59 PM by Cabinessenceking » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2014, 05:21:05 PM »

Wow, I had no idea Carl sang lower. 

This is how I've always heard it.

Take "In My Room":

Brian ends up highest, then Carl, then Dennis and Al, and then Mike.

"Help Me, Rhonda" (in the backing)

Brian highest, Carl right under, Al (lead), Dennis, Mike.

and then in the refrain: Brian highest, Al (lead), Carl, Dennis, and Mike.



Actually, on the intro to "In My Room", Dennis sings a higher part then Carl. Brian starts it, of course, then Carl comes in on a higher part, then Dennis comes in on the highest of the three parts. Then Mike comes in low and and it seems Carl and Dennis shift down to parts lower than Brian, with Dennis probably lower than Carl, and doubled by Al. When they sang the song live in the '70s and very early '80s, Dennis and Carl switched parts in the intro, obviously because by then Dennis' voice was much deeper (or hoarse, if you prefer).

On "Surfer Girl", doesn't Carl sing the part immediately below Brian's, with Dennis down one from him?


Craig, if I'm reading correctly you are saying that in the intro to IMR Brian sings the root of the chord, Carl the 3rd and Dennis the 5th. Is this so? To my ears, it sounds as if Brian is always on top.

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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2014, 05:42:30 PM »

Wow, I had no idea Carl sang lower. 

This is how I've always heard it.

Take "In My Room":

Brian ends up highest, then Carl, then Dennis and Al, and then Mike.

"Help Me, Rhonda" (in the backing)

Brian highest, Carl right under, Al (lead), Dennis, Mike.

and then in the refrain: Brian highest, Al (lead), Carl, Dennis, and Mike.



Actually, on the intro to "In My Room", Dennis sings a higher part then Carl. Brian starts it, of course, then Carl comes in on a higher part, then Dennis comes in on the highest of the three parts. Then Mike comes in low and and it seems Carl and Dennis shift down to parts lower than Brian, with Dennis probably lower than Carl, and doubled by Al. When they sang the song live in the '70s and very early '80s, Dennis and Carl switched parts in the intro, obviously because by then Dennis' voice was much deeper (or hoarse, if you prefer).

On "Surfer Girl", doesn't Carl sing the part immediately below Brian's, with Dennis down one from him?


Craig, if I'm reading correctly you are saying that in the intro to IMR Brian sings the root of the chord, Carl the 3rd and Dennis the 5th. Is this so? To my ears, it sounds as if Brian is always on top.



Well, perhaps...maybe the effect of Carl coming in so strong at the same time the melody line climbs up creates that effect in my ears. Harmony-meister Adam could tell us for sure, no doubt...  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2014, 05:47:51 PM »

Wow, I had no idea Carl sang lower.  

This is how I've always heard it.

Take "In My Room":

Brian ends up highest, then Carl, then Dennis and Al, and then Mike.

"Help Me, Rhonda" (in the backing)

Brian highest, Carl right under, Al (lead), Dennis, Mike.

and then in the refrain: Brian highest, Al (lead), Carl, Dennis, and Mike.



Actually, on the intro to "In My Room", Dennis sings a higher part then Carl. Brian starts it, of course, then Carl comes in on a higher part, then Dennis comes in on the highest of the three parts. Then Mike comes in low and and it seems Carl and Dennis shift down to parts lower than Brian, with Dennis probably lower than Carl, and doubled by Al - which is what I think you were getting at. When they sang the song live in the '70s and very early '80s, Dennis and Carl switched parts in the intro, obviously because by then Dennis' voice was much deeper (or hoarse, if you prefer).

On "Surfer Girl", doesn't Carl sing the part immediately below Brian's, with Dennis down one from him?


I don't think that's really accurate, c-man, regarding "In My Room". Brian sings the melody, i.e. the highest part the entire song. He starts on a B by himself (There's a world where), and then he goes up a major third to D# and Carl comes in on the B (I can go and), and then Brian goes up to an F#, Carl goes up to a D#, and Dennis comes in on the B (tell my secrets to). then Mike comes in on the bass part and they keep this same relationship the entire song. Did Al even sing on the original recording? It's clearly 4-part harmony and I don't detect any doubling as Carl and Dennis's voices are very clear.

On "Surfer Girl" it sounds like Dennis is singing the part above Carl. You can hear him very clearly at the end of the intro. It's hard to tell.

It's such a beautiful, classic Beach Boys blend though. I've heard it a million times but it still gives me chills.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2014, 06:35:10 PM »

Just double checked on the headphones....Brian does indeed start on the tonic, move up a third, and then another third.  Carl was indeed the second voice (then moving up a third), and then Dennis the third voice entering.  Which is something that led me to believe for a long time that's how the stack usually was -- but it was the exception rather than the rule.  Dennis was usually above Carl until Al came along, then Dennis went lower.  I suspect, besides reasons of blend, on "In My Room," Dennis' part was too low for Carl.  That could also be true of "Surfer Girl."  That's a very low harmony and though I'm good at this kind of thing I've always had trouble separating them all out down there.

Soloing each part in the cans, I don't hear evidence of Dennis' part being doubled.  I've been fooled a few times into thinking Al was in the blend when he wasn't, because his tone is so similar to the Wilsons'.  There are a certainly points where he sounds like he's in there, but I suspect it's an aural illusion.

Alan Boyd sent me a long e-mail on this topic after the original post, and he felt that Brian made his decisions on who sang where mostly for reasons of sonority -- and I think he is probably right about that.  Dennis' voice was very key when deployed correctly -- the richness of the blend comes in large part from his vocal tone, just as the smoothness of later recordings can be often attributed to Bruce's voice.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 06:36:52 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2014, 06:47:27 PM »

I'm not directing this post at anyone or any post in particular, but just offering a suggestion.

IMO, it doesn't do as much good to try figuring out who sang what, or whose voice was above another as much as it would transcribing and analyzing what notes of each chord they are singing, and how Brian's arrangements would feature the concept of writing "lines" on certain songs rather than blocking out chords starting with melody (top) then bass (bottom), then filling in the alto and tenor inner voices to fill in the chord of that moment. That was the Bach style, learned in every music theory class for a few centuries.

The line writing technique can create far more movement and more interesting interplay between the voices, so you get the chord sound but as the chords progress there are also interesting lines in each voice that flow more evenly than when a writer/arranger has two voices to fill, and in filling those usually middle voices after the bass and lead are set, the intervals you'll have the singers jumping can be crazy.

Not that some of Brian's charts don't do that very same thing, and I think he took that directly from some of those Bach "music theory" lessons he had taken, but when Brian called on the techniques he learned on his own from transcribing Four Freshmen arrangements, he had that more jazz-based, more modern line-writing technique in his bag.

Quick story:

I was taking a vocal arranging class at Berklee. The instructor had been a member of the Four Freshmen in one of their 1970's incarnations, touring with them as a singer-arranger-musician, as the membership had been changing off and on since the 50's. One class he opened it up for anyone who wanted to bring in a cassette of a vocal arrangement they liked, and he'd go over it with the class.

Someone else in the class had brought in Pet Sounds, wanted to see what was going on with Sloop John B, especially the soaring a capella break. So the instructor puts on the tape, it gets to the break. He plays it back, and goes to the blackboard. He starts writing lines, individual parts he had heard, by ear. Keep in mind, he had been doing this professionally since the 50's, it was in his blood and was his trade.

So he's sketching out parts, and after a few minutes he had the break, or at least a damned good sketch of it, enough to dig into the harmonies and what each part was doing, and how they added up to the chord changes.

Overall, it wasn't too complex, harmony wise, and just like I had sketched out California Girls on this board over a year or so ago, they are mostly triads underneath it all. But the way the individual lines worked in and out of the chords was the keeper, the takeaway. It sound brilliant, it sounds intricate, but ultimately it's simple triadic harmony anchoring some terrific individual lines.

I was stunned, still haven't gotten over watching someone do that in a matter of minutes after listening to a tape.

So I'll suggest again, trying to figure out who sang what isn't getting close to the magician's tricks, Brian being the magician naturally, and since at least one member could cover each band member's range convincingly, and since at least three of them when in a tight harmony could sound very close to the others to the point of sounding like the family they were (except Al, but hell he sounded like a Wilson too...), it's more fun to break down the actual notes on paper and see how Brian spun them together.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2014, 06:48:36 PM »

Hey Adam, how's it going? Thanks for concurring. Grin  It's so cool to see that I'm not the only one that obsesses over these finer details.

Honestly, though, there are so many recordings that I can't tell who's singing what. It's just a heavenly blend of perfection.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2014, 07:13:53 PM »

The examples in Beach Boys songs of the line writing type of jazz arranging are easy, listen to the Four Freshmen covers like "Graduation Day", "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" aka "A Young Man Is Gone", and listen for the way the inner voices often extend beyond the chord of the moment, creating a dissonance that gets resolved at the end of the phrase. It's like the lines being sung in those inner voices are creating the harmony rather than supporting it. Brian adapted that technique, maybe even simplified it, on something like "I Get Around" (the harmony lines singing get around round round I get around under his falsetto lead), the last minute or so of "You Still Believe In Me", and "Cool Cool Water" where the individual parts are swirling around and moving around the chord rather than singing in block harmony. On any beat, the chord being sung might be more of a passing chord or even a dissonance rather than the triad itself.

And arrangements like "Surfer Girl", "In My Room", and "California Girls" are more like the traditional Bach style SATB harmony writing, triad-based with definite chords agreeing with the chord of the song itself most often.

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2014, 07:25:16 AM »

Just double checked on the headphones....Brian does indeed start on the tonic, move up a third, and then another third.  Carl was indeed the second voice (then moving up a third), and then Dennis the third voice entering.  Which is something that led me to believe for a long time that's how the stack usually was -- but it was the exception rather than the rule.  Dennis was usually above Carl until Al came along, then Dennis went lower.  I suspect, besides reasons of blend, on "In My Room," Dennis' part was too low for Carl.  That could also be true of "Surfer Girl."  That's a very low harmony and though I'm good at this kind of thing I've always had trouble separating them all out down there.

Soloing each part in the cans, I don't hear evidence of Dennis' part being doubled.  I've been fooled a few times into thinking Al was in the blend when he wasn't, because his tone is so similar to the Wilsons'.  There are a certainly points where he sounds like he's in there, but I suspect it's an aural illusion.

Alan Boyd sent me a long e-mail on this topic after the original post, and he felt that Brian made his decisions on who sang where mostly for reasons of sonority -- and I think he is probably right about that.  Dennis' voice was very key when deployed correctly -- the richness of the blend comes in large part from his vocal tone, just as the smoothness of later recordings can be often attributed to Bruce's voice.

Thanks, Adam...regarding "In My Room", I'm pretty sure Al's playing on the basic track, since the session tape reveals that the bass and the organ were both on there (rather than Brian playing one part on the track and then overdubbing the other), with both Carl and Dave clearly playing guitars, so I'm thinking Al is on bass, therefore it'd be unusual if Brian didn't also have him sing on it. He's definitely not in the intro, but like you there are times later on where I believe I can hear him in the blend.

Interesting how Carl and Dennis swapped vocal parts in the "In My Room" intro years later...could it be that they didn't actually swap parts as much as running order? In other words, on the Knebworth version (I'm assuming that the song is on the CD without actually looking), does Dennis enter on his original note (B) but second in the order, with Carl then entering on the D# but third in the order, rather than Carl entereing on the B then moving up to the D# when Dennis enters on the B?

My assumption that Carl was the second highest voice in "Surfer Girl" came from something in Geoffrey Himes' wonderfully comprehensive article and interview with Carl, published in the September 1983 issue of Musician, and later reprinted in expanded form in the revised edition of "Back To The Beach": "Even as Carl learned the mid-range harmony vocal devilishly close to Brian's lead...". But this is also the article where Carl describes Brian's standard template for their vocal parts: "Michael always sang the bottom; I would sing the one above that, then would come Dennis or Alan, and then Brian on top." THAT would have been a great opportunity for Himes to ask him why Dennis had a higher part them him when he (Carl) was clearly the stronger singer, but he blew it. Smiley Incidently, Himes is still writing about music, which is nice to see...the other day I read an article he did in some financial magazine at work (maybe Forbes, or something like that) on that young gal who's been colloborating with David Byrne.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 07:54:34 AM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2014, 08:51:51 AM »

You know, something else just came to mind, and there's no way for this not to sound a little facetious, but I'm at least half serious in this proposal...regarding how, on a lot of these early songs, it sometimes sounds like Al may be there (doubling Dennis or Carl or somehow otherwise just  being "there") and sometimes not...well, we all know the story goes that Al had to stand on a box in the studio when singing group vocals with the others into one microphone, so that he would be at the same level of proximity...what if they didn't hit upon that solution until later...that would explain why we can sometimes "hear" Al and sometimes not, and why Dennis' or Carl's voice comes through so much stronger than Al's, when and if Al was truly doubling one of them...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 09:29:17 AM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2014, 05:02:11 AM »

For what it's worth, Don Cunningham did a study of the harmony parts on "Don't Worry Baby" (both the 1964 studio original and the live version from the '73 "In Concert" album) in the Winter 1984 issue of his great "Add Some Music" fanzine. To Don's ears, the first bar of the intro (the E major chord) has Dennis on the G# note, probably doubled (as he says) by Mike, with Al, Carl and Brian all on B...then for the next bar, Al and Brian shift up to an E while the others hold steady. From there, Al and Brian stay on the highest note of the triad, with Carl in the middle, and Dennis/Mike on the bottom note. All of this is topped, of course, with Brian's soaring soprano falsetto on a separate track. Like Adam, Don admits that he has trouble hearing Carl sometimes, but he definitely places him in the middle of the three-note triad contained within the one octave.

For the live '70s version, his observation is that they dropped both the falsetto and Al's high triad part, and added a new part, sung by Carl, between the two, which sounds right to my ears.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 08:32:13 PM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2014, 06:16:25 AM »

Just double checked on the headphones....Brian does indeed start on the tonic, move up a third, and then another third.  Carl was indeed the second voice (then moving up a third), and then Dennis the third voice entering.  Which is something that led me to believe for a long time that's how the stack usually was -- but it was the exception rather than the rule.  Dennis was usually above Carl until Al came along, then Dennis went lower.  I suspect, besides reasons of blend, on "In My Room," Dennis' part was too low for Carl.  That could also be true of "Surfer Girl."  That's a very low harmony and though I'm good at this kind of thing I've always had trouble separating them all out down there.

Soloing each part in the cans, I don't hear evidence of Dennis' part being doubled.  I've been fooled a few times into thinking Al was in the blend when he wasn't, because his tone is so similar to the Wilsons'.  There are a certainly points where he sounds like he's in there, but I suspect it's an aural illusion.

Alan Boyd sent me a long e-mail on this topic after the original post, and he felt that Brian made his decisions on who sang where mostly for reasons of sonority -- and I think he is probably right about that.  Dennis' voice was very key when deployed correctly -- the richness of the blend comes in large part from his vocal tone, just as the smoothness of later recordings can be often attributed to Bruce's voice.

Thanks, Adam...regarding "In My Room", I'm pretty sure Al's playing on the basic track, since the session tape reveals that the bass and the organ were both on there (rather than Brian playing one part on the track and then overdubbing the other), with both Carl and Dave clearly playing guitars, so I'm thinking Al is on bass, therefore it'd be unusual if Brian didn't also have him sing on it. He's definitely not in the intro, but like you there are times later on where I believe I can hear him in the blend.

Interesting how Carl and Dennis swapped vocal parts in the "In My Room" intro years later...could it be that they didn't actually swap parts as much as running order? In other words, on the Knebworth version (I'm assuming that the song is on the CD without actually looking), does Dennis enter on his original note (B) but second in the order, with Carl then entering on the D# but third in the order, rather than Carl entereing on the B then moving up to the D# when Dennis enters on the B?

My assumption that Carl was the second highest voice in "Surfer Girl" came from something in Geoffrey Himes' wonderfully comprehensive article and interview with Carl, published in the September 1983 issue of Musician, and later reprinted in expanded form in the revised edition of "Back To The Beach": "Even as Carl learned the mid-range harmony vocal devilishly close to Brian's lead...". But this is also the article where Carl describes Brian's standard template for their vocal parts: "Michael always sang the bottom; I would sing the one above that, then would come Dennis or Alan, and then Brian on top." THAT would have been a great opportunity for Himes to ask him why Dennis had a higher part them him when he (Carl) was clearly the stronger singer, but he blew it. Smiley Incidently, Himes is still writing about music, which is nice to see...the other day I read an article he did in some financial magazine at work (maybe Forbes, or something like that) on that young gal who's been colloborating with David Byrne.

There is a clip that appears on the Endless Summer video that shows Carl at a soundcheck singing alone his part for Surfer Girl. And it is obviously the one below the lead, starting on F#. In live versions Alan sings the third part (starting on D), but then in the very end, he is heard singing a part above Carl's that I don't remember being on the original recording of the song (cannot check this right now)... "Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl" to the notes Eb and F.
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2014, 07:01:08 AM »

<<There is a clip that appears on the Endless Summer video that shows Carl at a soundcheck singing alone his part for Surfer Girl. And it is obviously the one below the lead, starting on F#. In live versions Alan sings the third part (starting on D), but then in the very end, he is heard singing a part above Carl's that I don't remember being on the original recording of the song (cannot check this right now)... "Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl" to the notes Eb and F.>>

Do you mean the "Endless HARMONY" video? Smiley Or do you mean the "Endless Summer" TV series that aired in '89? I seem to recall this clip on the former.
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2014, 07:09:56 AM »

<<There is a clip that appears on the Endless Summer video that shows Carl at a soundcheck singing alone his part for Surfer Girl. And it is obviously the one below the lead, starting on F#. In live versions Alan sings the third part (starting on D), but then in the very end, he is heard singing a part above Carl's that I don't remember being on the original recording of the song (cannot check this right now)... "Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl" to the notes Eb and F.>>

Do you mean the "Endless HARMONY" video? Smiley Or do you mean the "Endless Summer" TV series that aired in '89? I seem to recall this clip on the former.

The video. The part where they mention Carl's crucial role in vocal  harmony blend.
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2014, 08:33:40 AM »

<<There is a clip that appears on the Endless Summer video that shows Carl at a soundcheck singing alone his part for Surfer Girl. And it is obviously the one below the lead, starting on F#. In live versions Alan sings the third part (starting on D), but then in the very end, he is heard singing a part above Carl's that I don't remember being on the original recording of the song (cannot check this right now)... "Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl" to the notes Eb and F.>>

Do you mean the "Endless HARMONY" video? Smiley Or do you mean the "Endless Summer" TV series that aired in '89? I seem to recall this clip on the former.

The video. The part where they mention Carl's crucial role in vocal  harmony blend.

I wonder, then, if that means that in the live arrangement, Carl took over Dennis' original part at some point?
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2014, 11:32:28 AM »

<<There is a clip that appears on the Endless Summer video that shows Carl at a soundcheck singing alone his part for Surfer Girl. And it is obviously the one below the lead, starting on F#. In live versions Alan sings the third part (starting on D), but then in the very end, he is heard singing a part above Carl's that I don't remember being on the original recording of the song (cannot check this right now)... "Girl surfer girl my little surfer girl" to the notes Eb and F.>>

Do you mean the "Endless HARMONY" video? Smiley Or do you mean the "Endless Summer" TV series that aired in '89? I seem to recall this clip on the former.

The video. The part where they mention Carl's crucial role in vocal  harmony blend.

I wonder, then, if that means that in the live arrangement, Carl took over Dennis' original part at some point?

Hm. I think that's his original part. By the way, when he was out of the band for a while, Al took over Carl's part, as brutally shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8dyvdkW5lM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I wonder who took Al's (i.e. Dennis' orignal) part when Al sang this. Can't tell from this video.




Here's yet another stack: Al on lead, Dennis possibly singing his original part, and seemingly Bruce doubling Carl (which he probably always did).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLvi9pspSD4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Considering all these variants of the harmony stack kinda puts in perspective whatever preconception we can have on the magic and uniqueness of the BBs blend.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 12:44:26 PM by Dr. Lenny » Logged

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