New article on Dennis

[Mr. Wilson]

IMHO.. Whoever in BB had a solo career and it didn't fly the fault would be on them and no one else.. Even if there were obstacles in the way of you no matter where they came from where there"s a will there"s  a way..

[D409]

Another year, another article on Dennis :

http://sabotagetimes.com/music/dennis-wilson-the-self-destructive-beach-boy-who-was-the-most-talented-of-the-lot

Warning - a few of the same old myths are perpetuated, a well-meaning but not entirely accurate article...

[Mr. Wilson]

Pet Sounds WITCHCRAFT music..   Never heard that one..!

[Jon Stebbins]

I think people using the examples of Mike and Carl having solo careers with no trouble from the band are naive in their thinking that things were the same for them in '78 - '81 as they were for Dennis in 1977. Different worlds. Dennis had POB delivered and ready to go in April '77, he had a three-album deal with CBS/Caribou well before the BB's had their deal, and Dennis as usual deferred to Brian and waited for Beach Boys Love You to run it's course before he released POB. That right there must have been painful. To know you have this killer album you've been slaving over for years complete with a major label ready to release it, but again you have to wait in line for big brother's quirky gem to play out. And when it became apparent Dennis would be the first Beach Boy to go solo, not a pipe dream, but a reality with a big label, a big monetary advance and a lot of people saying this record was beyond the Beach Boys abilities....it is no doubt there were people in the Beach Boys hierarchy that freaked out. Too many people on and off the record making that point, the deeper you go the more pointed these statements become...Dennis caught a backlash from elements within the BB's camp. Many apologists want to deny it with "logic" but the historical trail is there. In fact because this caused such a fracture in the BB's infrastructure it was a result that the path for future BB's solo works were smoothed out by Jerry Schilling an others. Guercio made this point to me, Dennis took the hit, things got smoothed out, Mike and Carl benefited. This is not to say Dennis didn't have a role in sinking his own fortunes, he did, no doubt. But the whole obfuscatory routine of using Mike and Carl's subsequent solo efforts as proof that Dennis in no way was challenged in 1977 is bullshit.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think people using the examples of Mike and Carl having solo careers with no trouble from the band are naive in their thinking that things were the same for them in '78 - '81 as they were for Dennis in 1977. Different worlds. Dennis had POB delivered and ready to go in April '77, he had a three-album deal with CBS/Caribou well before the BB's had their deal, and Dennis as usual deferred to Brian and waited for Beach Boys Love You to run it's course before he released POB. That right there must have been painful. To know you have this killer album you've been slaving over for years complete with a major label ready to release it, but again you have to wait in line for big brother's quirky gem to play out. And when it became apparent Dennis would be the first Beach Boy to go solo, not a pipe dream, but a reality with a big label, a big monetary advance and a lot of people saying this record was beyond the Beach Boys abilities....it is no doubt there were people in the Beach Boys hierarchy that freaked out. Too many people on and off the record making that point, the deeper you go the more pointed these statements become...Dennis caught a backlash from elements within the BB's camp. Many apologists want to deny it with "logic" but the historical trail is there. In fact because this caused such a fracture in the BB's infrastructure it was a result that the path for future BB's solo works were smoothed out by Jerry Schilling an others. Guercio made this point to me, Dennis took the hit, things got smoothed out, Mike and Carl benefited. This is not to say Dennis didn't have a role in sinking his own fortunes, he did, no doubt. But the whole obfuscatory routine of using Mike and Carl's subsequent solo efforts as proof that Dennis in no way was challenged in 1977 is bullshit.

Not to mention that none of the BB member solo albums that were released in the early 80s could've possibly seemed to pose a musical/ego threat to the BBs, in any way shape or form. Mike and Carl's albums are simply not very good and/or unarguably bland/forgettable, and I can't imagine at the time there was more than a tiny bit of buzz (if even that), either within or outside of the BB organization, for the music contained on any of them ("Heaven" excepted).

[Cam Mott]

So BRI some how kept people from buying Dennis' released material?

[CenturyDeprived]

So BRI some how kept people from buying Dennis' released material?

If (and it can remain an "if" should people remain unconvinced) BRI or forces within helped (even partially) dampen Dennis' fragile ambition to tour, then it would seem a no-brainer to think that the resultant lack of touring for an album would be a factor in keeping people from buying said product (that the tour would be promoting/creating awareness of), no?

[Sound of Free]

I think there are many reason POB wasn't a smash hit, despite the high quality of the material. Despite "a career of 15 years making records, HIT records with the Beach Boys" he was still a "new" artist as a solo act and some people still probably though of him as just the drummer – or clubber – of the group.

Add to that a muddy mix, vocals that could be rough to some people's ears and an unfriendly/unflattering-looking cover photo from a guy who was still pretty good looking in 1977 and there are some definite stumbling blocks.

But a question I have for the group is, did anyone else think they picked the wrong song to be a single. I can understand "River Song," for all its greatness, not being seen as a hit, but I think "You and I" was a bad choice. It's a good song, but I don't think a great one.

To me, "Rainbows" would have been the choice. I think it's a better song, more "radio-friendly" and I think Dennis' vocal was maybe the best one he did on POB.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think there are many reason POB wasn't a smash hit, despite the high quality of the material. Despite "a career of 15 years making records, HIT records with the Beach Boys" he was still a "new" artist as a solo act and some people still probably though of him as just the drummer – or clubber – of the group.

Add to that a muddy mix, vocals that could be rough to some people's ears and an unfriendly/unflattering-looking cover photo from a guy who was still pretty good looking in 1977 and there are some definite stumbling blocks.

But a question I have for the group is, did anyone else think they picked the wrong song to be a single. I can understand "River Song," for all its greatness, not being seen as a hit, but I think "You and I" was a bad choice. It's a good song, but I don't think a great one.

To me, "Rainbows" would have been the choice. I think it's a better song, more "radio-friendly" and I think Dennis' vocal was maybe the best one he did on POB.

Hypothetically speaking, does anyone else think that the very best shot that any Dennis solo track had at being a hit single would have been "School Girl"?

[Mr. Wilson]

When I met Dennis at a record store signing in 1977.. This exact subject came up..Whats the single..? I told him You + I was a great choice ..It was tender like Forever  and Only with you.. So I asked him about 2nd single and I  requested  Rainbows because of its upbeat  nature  and BB  type harmonies ..  He shook his head no and said Ah its just a album track man.. !  He was kind + shy that day  and yet talkative to the right people.. He was basking in his glory of finally releasing  POB.. In a humble way..  Spent a little time later having him sign 75=76=77 tour books..  He was a good guy..!!

[KittyKat]

Just because CBS Records had that much faith in Dennis, for whatever reason (and record labels were headed at that time by people willing to take risks/losses for the sake of "art"), doesn't mean the public was clamoring for whatever Dennis had to offer. Music needs an audience. POB didn't have any hit singles and I doubt it got much FM radio play. In order to have a tour, you really do need to have an audience. It doesn't matter what the president of the record company thought or the fact they gave him a large advance (which requires being paid back via sales) or that the deal was for three albums. No one in the Beach Boys had the power to get radio stations to not play Dennis's album, so it's not like they had the power to sabotage it. They had no power to get their own albums played. If the Beach Boys lack of success in that era was a drag on his reputation or whether radio stations thought his album or single was playable was a two-edged thing because obviously he got the deal in the first place due to his fame with the Beach Boys. POB doesn't sound like anything that was popular at the time. It doesn't matter if it was good or bad, if it doesn't fit the landscape, it's much harder to get played.

[Lonely Summer]

Well it wasn't Brian or Carl that's for sure.. And there was a official  press release that stated he had left the group. And it was mentioned that Carl wanted more rehersals and new songs played and a new lp recorded.. And when he went on tour he opened for The Doobie Bros + America and played clubs as a headliner.. As it should be.. And when he came back to BB he got all that done.. Whats interesting is in 1983 in between BB gigs carl played at Irvine Meadows in orange county Ca.. He opened for America.. Played a bunch of stuff of off Youngblood..  His new solo lp at the time.. Im not aware of Carl touring solo in 83 except for this gig.. But then again I could be wrong.. Carl was very good that nite..!

I've only seen maybe 4 or 5 shows mentioned for Carl that summer, so I am guessing that those were the only ones he could fit in between the Beach Boys commitments. I saw him in Seattle that summer, great show, the band was on fire. Only a couple of Beach Boys songs in the set, Darlin' and Long Promised Road, the rest was all stuff from his solo albums, plus a version of Sam & Dave "I Thank You", and a couple songs from Myrna - lovely lady.

[bgas]

Well it wasn't Brian or Carl that's for sure.. And there was a official  press release that stated he had left the group. And it was mentioned that Carl wanted more rehersals and new songs played and a new lp recorded.. And when he went on tour he opened for The Doobie Bros + America and played clubs as a headliner.. As it should be.. And when he came back to BB he got all that done.. Whats interesting is in 1983 in between BB gigs carl played at Irvine Meadows in orange county Ca.. He opened for America.. Played a bunch of stuff of off Youngblood..  His new solo lp at the time.. Im not aware of Carl touring solo in 83 except for this gig.. But then again I could be wrong.. Carl was very good that nite..!

I've only seen maybe 4 or 5 shows mentioned for Carl that summer, so I am guessing that those were the only ones he could fit in between the Beach Boys commitments. I saw him in Seattle that summer, great show, the band was on fire. Only a couple of Beach Boys songs in the set, Darlin' and Long Promised Road, the rest was all stuff from his solo albums, plus a version of Sam & Dave "I Thank You", and a couple songs from Myrna - lovely lady.

Yes; fromm AGD's site, 5 shows only, at the end of June. It appears it would have been October before he could have scheduled another run  of dates to play, and I guess it didn't matter by then? 
>>22 - Parker's, Seattle WA 
24 - Greek Theatre, Los Angeles CA [opening for America]
25 - Greek Theatre, Los Angeles CA [opening for America]
26 - Irvine Meadows Amphitheater, Los Angeles CA [opening for America] 
29 - Old Waldorf Club, San Francisco CA << 
and the setlist as noted on the site: 
>>
Carl Wilson
Old Waldorf, San Francisco, CA
June 29, 1983
This set differed from another Carl Wilson setlist of the same year in that it did not include "Time", but it did include current single "What You Do To Me" and two Myrna Smith solo numbers (titles were unknown to the contributor, but it is assumed that they were "Treat Me Right" and "I'm Not Dreaming", which were featured in a previous concert.)


Main Vocalist:

Carl Wilson


Backup band:

Myrna Smith
Billy Hinsche
John Daly
Gerald Johnson
Alan Krigger

SETLIST
1. Too Early To Tell
2. Darlin'
3. What You Gonna Do About Me?
4. Youngblood
5. Givin' You Up
6. What More Can I Say
7. Long Promised Road
8. Heaven
9. What You Do To Me
10. Treat Me Right (Myrna Smith)
11. I'm Not Dreaming (Myrna Smith)
12. Hold Me
13. The Right Lane
14. Rockin' All Over The World

Encore:
15. I Thank You

Contributed by: Tracy Bryant  <<

[Jon Stebbins]

So BRI some how kept people from buying Dennis' released material?

Sales weren't an issue as the quarter-million that POB sold beat projections as well as outsold the next couple of Beach Boys LP's. We're talking about the proposed tour in this thread...go up there and read my man...and whether an ultimatum came DW's way via BB's channels. I'm confident that it did because too many insiders have recounted this incident to me for it to be false.

[Mr. Wilson]

Hey bgas I have a problem with the musicians listed for 1983 CW dates.. The musicians listed for that date appear to be from the 1981 tour.. At Irvine the 26th there was CW.. Myrna .. Billy.. Alan Krigger..  Plus 2 other guys one on bass + one on guitar.. They were younger + dressed much different than rest of the band.. Shag hair cuts + loud clothes.. And they were both WHITE.. Gerald Johnson is black + John Daly was an older guy like the rest of CW band 81..   I say this with all sincerity .. I was there so Carl + Myrna are gone so its up to Billy Or Alan to tell us who they were.. CW did intro them but ive forgotten the names over time.. Gerald + John were not there at Irvine which is orange county.. THX

[Sound of Free]

When I met Dennis at a record store signing in 1977.. This exact subject came up..Whats the single..? I told him You + I was a great choice ..It was tender like Forever  and Only with you.. So I asked him about 2nd single and I  requested  Rainbows because of its upbeat  nature  and BB  type harmonies ..  He shook his head no and said Ah its just a album track man.. !  He was kind + shy that day  and yet talkative to the right people.. He was basking in his glory of finally releasing  POB.. In a humble way..  Spent a little time later having him sign 75=76=77 tour books..  He was a good guy..!!

It must have been great meeting Dennis. Everyone's "album tracks" should be as good as Rainbows.  

[Mr. Wilson]

Thank You.. I grew up in the right time period and grew up in southern California so I am lucky.. I have a friend of mine meet Brian on ventura  blvd  in Studio city just  walkin down the street with a friend  in their jogging outfits.. So the 2 had been workin out and my friend Galen bumped right into them on the street.. It does happen out here.. I once in 1985 got in a elevator  with Kenny Rogers Lionel Ritchie + Ritchie"s wife..  If walls could talk oh my.. Lets just say Lionel + his wife weren't getting along..!!   It happens  LOL

[Lonely Summer]

Hey bgas I have a problem with the musicians listed for 1983 CW dates.. The musicians listed for that date appear to be from the 1981 tour.. At Irvine the 26th there was CW.. Myrna .. Billy.. Alan Krigger..  Plus 2 other guys one on bass + one on guitar.. They were younger + dressed much different than rest of the band.. Shag hair cuts + loud clothes.. And they were both WHITE.. Gerald Johnson is black + John Daly was an older guy like the rest of CW band 81..   I say this with all sincerity .. I was there so Carl + Myrna are gone so its up to Billy Or Alan to tell us who they were.. CW did intro them but ive forgotten the names over time.. Gerald + John were not there at Irvine which is orange county.. THX

I have some pics from the Seattle show that my girlfriend took. Wish I had a scanner, but I will post them someday.

[Jay]

I think there are many reason POB wasn't a smash hit, despite the high quality of the material. Despite "a career of 15 years making records, HIT records with the Beach Boys" he was still a "new" artist as a solo act and some people still probably though of him as just the drummer – or clubber – of the group.

Add to that a muddy mix, vocals that could be rough to some people's ears and an unfriendly/unflattering-looking cover photo from a guy who was still pretty good looking in 1977 and there are some definite stumbling blocks.

But a question I have for the group is, did anyone else think they picked the wrong song to be a single. I can understand "River Song," for all its greatness, not being seen as a hit, but I think "You and I" was a bad choice. It's a good song, but I don't think a great one.

To me, "Rainbows" would have been the choice. I think it's a better song, more "radio-friendly" and I think Dennis' vocal was maybe the best one he did on POB.

Hypothetically speaking, does anyone else think that the very best shot that any Dennis solo track had at being a hit single would have been "School Girl"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKImbTWSG-w

[Cam Mott]

I don't know who is saying what about the band's or band management's supposed ultimatum but the fact that Dennis was allowed to do anything about his solo in connection with any Beach Boys' concerts seems to contradict the band being non-supportive. It sounds to me so far that the solo tour problem was on and between Dennis and the label since the BBs had already allowed his solo act to happen at their concerts to some extent.

POB did much better than MIU and about the same as LA but much worse than SU, H, 15BO, LY before and KTSA, TBB after. Dennis' single apparently didn't do much/anything while the BBs were still managing to hit the Top 40.

I'm having trouble believing the band was out to squash Dennis' solo career.

[Mike's Beard]

I wonder about the whole 'sabotage because of jealousy' angle (at least from a musical perspective). Because that would involve certain band members admitting to themselves that recent BB albums were not up to par. In Mike's mind did he honestly think that POB was much better than the songs he and Brian had just cooked up for the MIU album?

[The Heartical Don]

I think there are many reason POB wasn't a smash hit, despite the high quality of the material. Despite "a career of 15 years making records, HIT records with the Beach Boys" he was still a "new" artist as a solo act and some people still probably though of him as just the drummer – or clubber – of the group.

Add to that a muddy mix, vocals that could be rough to some people's ears and an unfriendly/unflattering-looking cover photo from a guy who was still pretty good looking in 1977 and there are some definite stumbling blocks.

But a question I have for the group is, did anyone else think they picked the wrong song to be a single. I can understand "River Song," for all its greatness, not being seen as a hit, but I think "You and I" was a bad choice. It's a good song, but I don't think a great one.

To me, "Rainbows" would have been the choice. I think it's a better song, more "radio-friendly" and I think Dennis' vocal was maybe the best one he did on POB.

Nice call.

Yet I can't really agree on the 'muddy mix' issue. Muddy, to these ears, is what mars for instance the Heartbreakers' 'LAMF' LP, it was done by John 'Speedy' Keen, and it stands as perhaps the worst mix ever in the entire history of rock music. But in Dennis' case, if you take 'Farewell My Friend', or 'You And I', I can only say these sound clear to me. Perhaps Dennis' vocals create the impression of 'muddiness', might be.

The album had a couple of female reviewers, in Holland, way back then. Without an exception, they found Denny to sound utterly, utterly sexy, erotic. Surely not 'unattractive'.

What grated yours truly a bit about the cover shot was that it was simply not sharp. For the rest you saw a handsome, earnest-looking man.

But still, I like your call.

[Jim Murphy]

Just want to say how much I am enjoying this thread and appreciate Ed and Jon weighing in with their unique perspectives.  Fascinating look into Dennis and the band circa 1977. 

Would love to one day hear those Pacific Ocean Blue rehearsal sessions.

And would gladly purchase a deluxe edition re-release of the Pacific Ocean Blue/Bambu Legacy package with a third disc of live rehearsals. 

[Mr. Wilson]

Hey Lonley Summer take a look at the pics and see if there is a left handed black bass player Gerald Johnson.. John Daly would be the other guy and he was taller than anybody else in the band and same age as Carl + Billy or older with dark hair.. The show I saw they weren't there in 83 and I find it hard to believe Carl would replace 2 band members for ONE gig.. The 2 guys I saw were younger than everyone else and were dressed slightly Hollywood 80"s rockers style..  Let us know please

[Lonely Summer]

Hey Lonley Summer take a look at the pics and see if there is a left handed black bass player Gerald Johnson.. John Daly would be the other guy and he was taller than anybody else in the band and same age as Carl + Billy or older with dark hair.. The show I saw they weren't there in 83 and I find it hard to believe Carl would replace 2 band members for ONE gig.. The 2 guys I saw were younger than everyone else and were dressed slightly Hollywood 80"s rockers style..  Let us know please

Definitely no left-handed bass player, the two guys are as you described. Maybe I can get over to Fed Ex in the next week or so and scan a couple of the pics.