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Author Topic: Why did post-Wrecking Crew era BB songs often use session musicians?  (Read 3738 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« on: December 20, 2013, 11:46:36 PM »

It's often confounded me why the band, long after the years of Brian producing their material, kept using session musicians on their recordings. Particularly in the late 70s and beyond.

When Brian began using session musicians in the 60s to augment the recordings, it seemed he was reaching for some very delicate, specific type of intricate sounds that would have been harder or impossible to achieve with the 60s lineup. But in later years, it seems they could've gone back to doing things themselves again (more than they actually did).

Obviously, things like Dennis being erratically involved in the band whatsoever around Keepin' The Summer Alive would make it more likely that other drummers would be used. But it seems odd how the band would use outside guitar players, for example, for guitar solos on BB85 songs, as well as guitar on Somewhere Near Japan, etc, when Carl was in the band and could've presumably just as easily laid down those tracks.

Some possible assumptions on my part:

-Did the band simply get comfortable (a nicer way of saying "lazy") and just preferred outside musicians doing the legwork and more of the "tough stuff" in the studio?
-Did they think other musicians could simply do things "better" than they could? (Perhaps Brian planted those seeds in their head years earlier)...
-Or maybe due to the BB spending such copious amounts of time on the road, they preferred to make more money staying on the road, instead of taking more time slaving over sounds in a studio?
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 08:38:47 AM »

I've often pondered this myself, Century, and have considered all the possible explanations you list, and I think there's some truth to each of them, although possibly less truth to the last one (b/c a lot of times these tracks would be cut with session musicians when the BBs themselves weren't on the road). Likewise, the opposite: why would Brian use the guys themselves on cuts like "Then I Kissed Her" and "You're So Good To Me" and "That's Not Me", when he could've just have easily used the Wrecking Crew?  And, why did they use other studios so extensively in the "20/20" and early "Sunflower" eras when there was a perfectly good studio at BW's place? I guess the ultimate answer is, "because they could".
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 10:32:06 AM »

Here's another theory that I just thought of. Imagine you've written a song and you have a pretty good idea how you want to arrange and record it. There are two options: you can have your fellow band members play on it, but they all have their own tastes and opinions, you can't really force them to do anything and they probably have something like a veto right. The other option is to record with hired hands who will just do whatever you want them to do because, well, you're the boss. The second option was probably often easier. And why would the other guys complain? They basically got time off when someone else was doing their jobs and since most BB albums didn't mention who played what, it's not like they were missing out on any credits or something.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2013, 11:01:37 AM »

Here's another theory that I just thought of. Imagine you've written a song and you have a pretty good idea how you want to arrange and record it. There are two options: you can have your fellow band members play on it, but they all have their own tastes and opinions, you can't really force them to do anything and they probably have something like a veto right. The other option is to record with hired hands who will just do whatever you want them to do because, well, you're the boss. The second option was probably often easier. And why would the other guys complain? They basically got time off when someone else was doing their jobs and since most BB albums didn't mention who played what, it's not like they were missing out on any credits or something.

Shelter - that's a very good point. There's always the possibility that politics like that were involved, and it may have just made things easier in those instances (seemingly an umbrella reason for them doing it in general in the 70s and beyond).

I also wonder if it was possibly the producer's decision, for example Steve Levine producing "Maybe I Don't Know" may have suggested using a guitar player who was an expert with a then-modern, super 80s commercial guitar playing sound/tone?
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 09:10:47 PM »

I really like the 2nd option that shelter brought up especially since we are talking about the BB..!   But I never heard Gary Moore being described as a commercial guitar  player and he was anything but that.. I was quite surprised he was on that and while his playing was always excellent I felt it didn't quite fit the song IMHO.. A little over the top  I guess.. RIP  Gary..
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 10:10:11 PM »

This is why I'd love to have a book (that's correct in its writing) about Smiley through present on the session work of the albums. The detail that went into the back liner credits of 15 BO and the sleeve to MIU is so detailed, mostly 15 BO since it shows each songs instrument credits. The fact that you can clearly see Carl played bass on some tunes, then some with Brian, then some (upright I assume) from Lyle Ritz is mind blowing! Not to mention Denny's playing drums throughout with Hal Blaine and Ricky Fataar making appearances. (I just love looking at that back cover!)

But there's some albums and songs it just seems like it would just be the band involved and not session musicians...like Holland? That's gotta be just the band and no session musicians, but it bet I'm wrong and someone can prove me wrong  Wink
For a long time, I thought Sunflower was just the group, but I've been proved wrong on that. There's some obvious things like the strings on Tears in then morning are obviously session musicians and I want to say Hal Blaine plays on It's About Time, but I'm not 100% sure.
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 10:33:52 PM »

I'd just love a book on Beach Boys sessions 1961-2012, period, but I'm realistic enough to realise it's never going to happen, because...

The documentation is incomplete (even in the 1962-1969 period: almost nothing exists for two whole albums from 1963)...
The documentation isn't always 100% accurate (beginning with the very first BB AFM contract there is !)...
The documentation, in some cases, doesn't even exist.

Given the band and their recording history, it's amazing we have as much as we do.

(BTW - the 15BO info isn't totally accurate either. Roy Wood played drums on "It's OK" (in 1974), Nick Pentelow & Mike Burney played the saxes.)
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 02:08:29 PM »

A few years back Roy Wood was a guest on an internet radio program. He said that in England you were either a Beach Boys fan or a Beatles fan, but you couldn't be both. He then stated that he was a Beach Boys fan.

He also mentioned playing sax on It's OK, but he added that it was so low in the final mix that it was essentially inaudible. (Of course this would have been the 15 Big Ones version.)  He didn't mention playing drums on the track.

I can understand that perhaps Roy Wood's sax was later replaced by other musicians, but I sort of doubt that he would forget playing drums on the record or neglect to mention it.
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 03:13:56 PM »

My info came back in, oh, mid-late eighties. From Roy.

The session he played on was in October 1974.
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 04:55:22 PM »

I suppose an interesting question to pose would be, what was the last song released by the BBs with no additional session musicians, where only official BB bandmembers were the only musicians present?

I'm guessing nothing post-Love You?

I do sometimes wish the band would've had a bit more pride in their own musicianship and work in the late 70s and beyond. Since they weren't a band that were especially known to the public for the bandmembers' musicianship, maybe it didn't dawn on them that their fans may have gotten more out of the music at times knowing that they were the ones playing the instruments.

Maybe that's a bad way of looking at it, but as a fan, it would probably have added another ounce of coolness and something to connect to the music with. It's not like the 60s, where the BBs most ambitious productions really seemingly needed the extra oomph of some super skilled session people. For that material, the preponderance of session people seems to make more sense to me, but the use of session people seems to have less of a good reason that I can think of (other than laziness?) with their later material. Not trying to come off as "bashing".

For example, it would've been cool to hear Carl trying to do his twist on an 80s style guitar solo on a tune like "Maybe I Don't Know", instead of some relatively anonymous session people. Don't mean to sound like a whiner, I dig a good chunk of the BBs "lesser" output as-is, like stuff from the 80s. Love me some "Somewhere Near Japan" especially. But this is just something I ponder as a fan.

It's interesting because this band (to me) is a band that I so associate with their vocals, and much less so with their musicianship (partly due to what, IMO, I view as overuse of session musicians over the years), that it came as a very pleasant surprise to me when seeing Al Jardine performing BB songs (with very audible guitar playing) at The Roxy a couple years back for his record release. It was a rare treat to see a BB perform at such a small venue to begin with, but to actually hear and witness BB bandmember musicianship that integral to the sound I was hearing was a bit of a surprise, where I said to myself, "wow, as many times as I've seen incarnations of the BBs play live, this is pretty much a first". This was of course, pre-C50, and granted I never saw a BB show live in their glory days (I've only been seeing BB incarnations live since '99)... but even during C50, BB bandmembers' musicianship was not exactly something highlighted too much (or even particularly audible), with the wonderful exception of David Marks' "Pet Sounds" (song) guitar playing.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 04:57:36 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 04:58:03 PM »

I want to say Hal Blaine plays on It's About Time, but I'm not 100% sure.

Earl Palmer.

Sunflower features more of the Beach Boys than you might expect.  There's plenty of Dragons on it, but the more homespun tracks seem to be almost all Beach Boys.  But yeah, then you have tracks like This Whole World that are all session players.
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 05:12:55 PM »

I think you could flip this question and it would be equally interesting. What would you consider the "Wrecking Crew Era"? Really only 1965 through '66 features a majority of the material recorded by the Wrecking Crew. And much of the material from '65 had BB's playing on the sessions...as does a bit of '66 and a fair amount of the material from '67. Why did Wrecking Crew Era songs often feature the BB's playing on them?
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 05:15:54 PM »

I think the Brian planting a seed speculation is valid, but more along the lines of his way of working as being the "business model" for the band. Post Brian-led era, whenever someone had a song, it seemed like that guy was more or less the one in charge of the production, therefore they would have Brian's way of working in mind. Besides, if it's your song and you're producing, arranging, etc, it might have felt a bit unnecessary for you to also have to play whatever insturment it is you play with the live band. ...... The touring Beach Boys were probably also tired of playing their insturments and were probably more than happy to sort of "play Brian" and produce their stuff rather than taking their own orders on the studio floor...

Just my own speculation.

Though didn't Bruce play multiple insturments on his own Beach Boys stuff?

All this being said, I wish they had played more because the tracks they ARE on really cook in a way the Wrecking Crew rarely did.
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 05:21:37 PM »

I think you could flip this question and it would be equally interesting. What would you consider the "Wrecking Crew Era"? Really only 1965 through '66 features a majority of the material recorded by the Wrecking Crew. And much of the material from '65 had BB's playing on the sessions...as does a bit of '66 and a fair amount of the material from '67. Why did Wrecking Crew Era songs often feature the BB's playing on them?

I guess I personally consider the "Wrecking Crew Era" to be, more or less, from '64-'67.  But I do know that Wrecking Crew members continued to contribute here and there throughout the late 60s + the 70s, both on BB material and on Dennis' POB (but nothing beyond, as far as I know, barring a cameo on a BW solo track, the name of which escapes me at the moment).

Would be interesting to see the "Wrecking Crew Era" mapped out in a chart Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2013, 05:29:46 PM »

I think the Brian planting a seed speculation is valid, but more along the lines of his way of working as being the "business model" for the band. Post Brian-led era, whenever someone had a song, it seemed like that guy was more or less the one in charge of the production, therefore they would have Brian's way of working in mind. Besides, if it's your song and you're producing, arranging, etc, it might have felt a bit unnecessary for you to also have to play whatever insturment it is you play with the live band. ...... The touring Beach Boys were probably also tired of playing their insturments and were probably more than happy to sort of "play Brian" and produce their stuff rather than taking their own orders on the studio floor...

Just my own speculation.

Though didn't Bruce play multiple insturments on his own Beach Boys stuff?

All this being said, I wish they had played more because the tracks they ARE on really cook in a way the Wrecking Crew rarely did.

I imagine it was that aspect of the band's history (Brian's mid 60s "business model" for the band in the studio), to just use session people at will... sometimes to make the song better, or sometimes "just because you can"... which helped usher in the ideology that made it totally acceptable for the band in later years to hire session guys without even thinking twice about it. Not to mention the fact that session people probably helped neutralize potential politics. While this was probably not the way things were done in many other iconic bands (and by that, I mean using session guys so many times past the point of when it seemed to serve much of a "legit" purpose), this seemed to simply become a largely unquestioned aspect of "how things were" in BB Land.

But, Pinder, as you said, sometimes this was at the expense of what would have otherwise been a cool opportunity for a BB bandmember or two to get a chance to shine. At least Carl made up for his lack of rippin' 80s-style guitar solos on BB85 with some of the best vocals of his career. IMO, this was a band that, comparatively, was (much) more focused on achieving the heights of what they could humanly achieve with their vocals, when compared to actual musical instruments.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 05:35:22 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 05:30:00 PM »

I think you could flip this question and it would be equally interesting. What would you consider the "Wrecking Crew Era"? Really only 1965 through '66 features a majority of the material recorded by the Wrecking Crew. And much of the material from '65 had BB's playing on the sessions...as does a bit of '66 and a fair amount of the material from '67. Why did Wrecking Crew Era songs often feature the BB's playing on them?

I guess I personally consider the "Wrecking Crew Era" to be, more or less, from '64-'67.  But I do know that Wrecking Crew members continued to contribute here and there throughout the late 60s + the 70s, both on BB material and on Dennis' POB (but nothing beyond, as far as I know, barring a cameo on a BW solo track, the name of which escapes me at the moment).

Would be interesting to see the "Wrecking Crew Era" mapped out in a chart Smiley

Isn't Hal Blaine just on "You And I" (on POB), and just kick drum at that due to the rest of what he tracked getting wiped? ...... Rest of the drums are Bobby F and Dennis, right?
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 05:32:26 PM »

I think the Brian planting a seed speculation is valid, but more along the lines of his way of working as being the "business model" for the band. Post Brian-led era, whenever someone had a song, it seemed like that guy was more or less the one in charge of the production, therefore they would have Brian's way of working in mind. Besides, if it's your song and you're producing, arranging, etc, it might have felt a bit unnecessary for you to also have to play whatever insturment it is you play with the live band. ...... The touring Beach Boys were probably also tired of playing their insturments and were probably more than happy to sort of "play Brian" and produce their stuff rather than taking their own orders on the studio floor...

Just my own speculation.

Though didn't Bruce play multiple insturments on his own Beach Boys stuff?

All this being said, I wish they had played more because the tracks they ARE on really cook in a way the Wrecking Crew rarely did.

I agree that it was probably Brian's business model for the band, in the studio, to just use session people at will... sometimes to make the song better, or sometimes "just because you can". I imagine it was that aspect of the band's history which helped usher in the ideology that made it totally acceptable for the band in later years to hire session guys without even thinking twice about it.  Not to mention the fact that session people probably helped neutralize potential politics.

But, Pinder, as you said, sometimes this was at the expense of what would have otherwise been a cool opportunity for a BB bandmember or two to get a chance to shine. At least Carl made up for his lack of rippin' 80s-style guitar solos on BB85 with some of the best vocals of his career. IMO, this was a band that, comparatively, was (much) more focused on achieving the heights of what they could humanly achieve with their vocals, when compared to actual musical instruments.

That's a fair question, and I would have liked to have had them get to shine more, but I just don't think that's where their heads were ever at. It was all about the music, in the most genuine sense. I think they saved their personal concern and ego for the vocals and they knew that was their ace in the hole....
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 05:34:41 PM »

I think the Brian planting a seed speculation is valid, but more along the lines of his way of working as being the "business model" for the band. Post Brian-led era, whenever someone had a song, it seemed like that guy was more or less the one in charge of the production, therefore they would have Brian's way of working in mind. Besides, if it's your song and you're producing, arranging, etc, it might have felt a bit unnecessary for you to also have to play whatever insturment it is you play with the live band. ...... The touring Beach Boys were probably also tired of playing their insturments and were probably more than happy to sort of "play Brian" and produce their stuff rather than taking their own orders on the studio floor...

Just my own speculation.

Though didn't Bruce play multiple insturments on his own Beach Boys stuff?

All this being said, I wish they had played more because the tracks they ARE on really cook in a way the Wrecking Crew rarely did.

I agree that it was probably Brian's business model for the band, in the studio, to just use session people at will... sometimes to make the song better, or sometimes "just because you can". I imagine it was that aspect of the band's history which helped usher in the ideology that made it totally acceptable for the band in later years to hire session guys without even thinking twice about it.  Not to mention the fact that session people probably helped neutralize potential politics.

But, Pinder, as you said, sometimes this was at the expense of what would have otherwise been a cool opportunity for a BB bandmember or two to get a chance to shine. At least Carl made up for his lack of rippin' 80s-style guitar solos on BB85 with some of the best vocals of his career. IMO, this was a band that, comparatively, was (much) more focused on achieving the heights of what they could humanly achieve with their vocals, when compared to actual musical instruments.

That's a fair question, and I would have liked to have had them get to shine more, but I just don't think that's where their heads were ever at. It was all about the music, in the most genuine sense. I think they saved their personal concern and ego for the vocals and they knew that was their ace in the hole....

I concur.
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2013, 05:37:40 PM »

I think the Brian planting a seed speculation is valid, but more along the lines of his way of working as being the "business model" for the band. Post Brian-led era, whenever someone had a song, it seemed like that guy was more or less the one in charge of the production, therefore they would have Brian's way of working in mind. Besides, if it's your song and you're producing, arranging, etc, it might have felt a bit unnecessary for you to also have to play whatever insturment it is you play with the live band. ...... The touring Beach Boys were probably also tired of playing their insturments and were probably more than happy to sort of "play Brian" and produce their stuff rather than taking their own orders on the studio floor...

Just my own speculation.

Though didn't Bruce play multiple insturments on his own Beach Boys stuff?

All this being said, I wish they had played more because the tracks they ARE on really cook in a way the Wrecking Crew rarely did.

I agree that it was probably Brian's business model for the band, in the studio, to just use session people at will... sometimes to make the song better, or sometimes "just because you can". I imagine it was that aspect of the band's history which helped usher in the ideology that made it totally acceptable for the band in later years to hire session guys without even thinking twice about it.  Not to mention the fact that session people probably helped neutralize potential politics.

But, Pinder, as you said, sometimes this was at the expense of what would have otherwise been a cool opportunity for a BB bandmember or two to get a chance to shine. At least Carl made up for his lack of rippin' 80s-style guitar solos on BB85 with some of the best vocals of his career. IMO, this was a band that, comparatively, was (much) more focused on achieving the heights of what they could humanly achieve with their vocals, when compared to actual musical instruments.

That's a fair question, and I would have liked to have had them get to shine more, but I just don't think that's where their heads were ever at. It was all about the music, in the most genuine sense. I think they saved their personal concern and ego for the vocals and they knew that was their ace in the hole....

I concur.

My God, can you imagine how it must have felt being in a band where you knew you just really had NO competition vocal-wise anywhere in rock/pop?Huh
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2013, 06:24:25 PM »

(BTW - the 15BO info isn't totally accurate either. Roy Wood played drums on "It's OK" (in 1974), Nick Pentelow & Mike Burney played the saxes.)

Considering how stoned Roy was at the session, there's a good chance he couldn't remember all the details even the next day. For the record, Earl Mankey was quoted in "Pet Sounds" No. 2 as saying at this session "...they did "Honeycomb". Roy Wood played drums, and I think he blew some horn or something". Regarding "It's O.K.", he said the "Find a ride" part was sitting around from the previous day (meaning Ricky Fataar probably did play the drums on that part, as credited on 15 Big Ones), and that they (Brian, Roy, etc.) finished it at that same "Honeycomb" session. In Mark Dillon's book, Earle elaborates further, recalling that they actually did overdubs on several songs that day, pulled from the tape library, in a manic spurt of creativity...he says Roy did drums, sax, bass and/or guitar, to the point where Brian finally asked him just what his instrument was! Based on the sonics, I'd say there's a good bet Dennis replaced or overdubbed additional drums on the final track sometime later (which would explain HIS drumming credit on the song...incidentally, the drums on tracks one and three of 15 Big Ones were also overdubbed once the basic track was laid down...and therefore probably track fifteen as well, since it was apparently recorded the same day as track one).

Unfortunately, the multi-track session tape and the accompanying documentation for "It's O.K." are missing, so it's impossible to examine it in closer detail. The alternate mix presented on MIC is vintage '76.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 06:33:56 PM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2013, 12:54:14 AM »

Drunk, maybe - stoned, no. Roy's never done any kind of drugs except alcohol.

Unfortunately, the multi-track session tape and the accompanying documentation for "It's O.K." are missing, so it's impossible to examine it in closer detail. The alternate mix presented on MIC is vintage '76.

Including the "Mike Come Back To LA" little intro riff ? Fascinating.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 12:58:13 AM by The Legendary AGD » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2013, 03:25:01 AM »

Drunk, maybe - stoned, no. Roy's never done any kind of drugs except alcohol.

Hmmm...guess Mankey's recollection of Roy whipping out a vial of "rocket fuel" for injestion is wrong, then...unless the "rocket fuel" was something non-pharmacuetical...I guess he doesn't actually say...but whatever it was, it caused things to get pretty manic, in Earl's description.
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2013, 06:37:02 AM »

Drunk, maybe - stoned, no. Roy's never done any kind of drugs except alcohol.

Hmmm...guess Mankey's recollection of Roy whipping out a vial of "rocket fuel" for injestion is wrong, then...unless the "rocket fuel" was something non-pharmacuetical...I guess he doesn't actually say...but whatever it was, it caused things to get pretty manic, in Earl's description.

Is there some other proof he never ingested, other than his own recounting?  Perhaps he and Brian were both going at it, and he simply doesn't want to admit it. 
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