Have all BB members felt creatively stifled by the band at some point?

[CenturyDeprived]

Brian and Dennis’ feelings of being creatively stifled by the BB brand name, and what was expected to be released under that banner, are well known and documented.
David as well, since his early songs were rejected by Brian and helped spur his desire to leave.

But what about the other guys? Did Al, Mike, or Bruce ever feel creatively stifled, and that they didn’t get their creative rocks off as BBs? While none of them are super prolific songwriters, we of course know that all of them recorded solo albums, for whatever that’s worth as part of the discussion.

[Mr. Wilson]

I would say Yes to your question..

[adamghost]

I think anybody in a band situation for that long is going to feel that way at some time or another.  Bands, by definition, are a compromise proposition.  Even someone like John Fogerty, who was basically a dictator in CCR, was frustrated by what he perceived as the band's lack of perception of the big picture (and it's obvious how the other members felt about it).

[CenturyDeprived]

I think anybody in a band situation for that long is going to feel that way at some time or another.  Bands, by definition, are a compromise proposition.  Even someone like John Fogerty, who was basically a dictator in CCR, was frustrated by what he perceived as the band's lack of perception of the big picture (and it's obvious how the other members felt about it).

I'd agree with that... but I'm curious as to what ways people on this board feel that people like Mike, Bruce, or Al would've felt creatively stifled.

Was there any musical direction that they felt the BBs couldn't/wouldn't pursue (which they wanted the band to pursue)? And what direction would that have been? It's just interesting to speculate on the many alternate realities that could've played out in particular eras, if for example any of these 3 guys (or Brian/Dennis, for that matter) could've had the reigns and ongoing support for whatever vision they saw fit for the BBs. The only example (post Pet Sounds or Love You) I can think of a bandmember seemingly fully getting their creative way without politics/others interfering, would be Mike and SIP. I can't imagine he felt stifled on that record, as it seemed to really be his baby.

[Sound of Free]

I'd agree with that... but I'm curious as to what ways people on this board feel that people like Mike, Bruce, or Al would've felt creatively stifled.

I think Mike felt stifled when Brian chose Tony Asher to write lyrics for Pet Sounds and Van Dyke Parks to write them for Smile. Asher and Parks did great work, but no matter what your opinion is of Mike, it's somewhat understandable that a guy who wrote a lot of hit lyrics would feel upset at being replaced by "outsiders."

And of course Mike felt stifled at not writing more with Brian for That's Why God Made the Radio. That one seems harder to justify.

As for Al, he hasn't written a ton of songs, but he pitched one for TWGMTR – I'm drawing a blank now on what it was – and Brian nixed it, even though there was plenty of room for another song, so I can imagine him feeling SLIGHTLY stifled.

[chrs_mrgn]

I bet Al probably felt a little stifled when he couldn't do as many folk / americana songs as he wants to.

[Sheriff John Stone]

For Brian, who produced The Beach Boys' Party,  Pet Sounds, SMiLE, and the songs below:
 
- "Johnny Carson"
- "I Went To Sleep"
- "Mt. Vernon And Fairway"
- "Shortenin' Bread"
- "She's Goin' Bald"
- "You're Welcome"
- "At My Window"
- "A Day In The Life Of A Tree"
- "Til I Die"
- "The Private Life Of Bill And Sue"
- "Child Of Winter"
- "Hey Little Tomboy"
- "Lazy Lizzy"
- "Sail Plane Song"
- "My Solution"
- "TM Song"
- "H.E.L.P. Is On The Way"

No, I think Brian composed pretty much anything he felt like.
 
 

[Eric Aniversario]

I find it odd that no one has even mentioned Carl in this thread. I'm sure he felt creatively stifled in the 80s and especially the 90s. His work with Beckley and Lamm in the 90s was probably a welcome break, and I'm thinking that his 2 solo albums were as well.

I do remember reading that Bruce was unhappy with the direction of the group in the early 70s, and that the group was unhappy with him and looking to replace him.

I imagine that Al was disappointed with his song being rejected for the TWGMTR album.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I find it odd that no one has even mentioned Carl in this thread. I'm sure he felt creatively stifled in the 80s and especially the 90s. His work with Beckley and Lamm in the 90s was probably a welcome break, and I'm thinking that his 2 solo albums were as well.

I do remember reading that Bruce was unhappy with the direction of the group in the early 70s, and that the group was unhappy with him and looking to replace him.

I imagine that Al was disappointed with his song being rejected for the TWGMTR album.

Yeah, I wonder if Carl felt stifled and therefore made the conscious decision not to write more material. I mean, did he have songs just laying around that he never bothered to record or push on the band or is what we have basically the goods?

[Mr. Wilson]

Interesting thought Pinder.. I was wondering somewhat the same thought.. I wonder are there any love songs released or unreleased by Carl that are for Gina.. ?

[tpesky]

I would say Al felt creatively stifled in the 80s and 90s as well, he recognized the traveling jukebox as early as 1980 and was constantly pushing for set list changes.

[adamghost]

I'd guess Brian felt stifled in the late '60s and again in the mid '70s when he felt like he couldn't do what he wanted to do without being pressured to write something with commercial potential for the group.  As John Stone noted, he was allowed to come up with a lot of weird stuff.  But his point doesn't really stand in that it's not like the band really ENCOURAGED it.  They just tolerated it.

I'd say Carl probably felt that way in the late '70s and again in the early '80s.  After that I think he punched the clock.

Al, I would guess it would less have to do with getting his songs on records than with the band not functioning more productively at various points.  And possibly to a lesser degree Dennis' issue with not getting his ideas considered or heard -- though he did better commercially at the helm than anyone in the band other than Brian (Mike was the second most successful songwriter, but he never produced).

Mike -- I think he was probably chomping at the bit a little (besides '66-'67) during the Warner/Reprise period, especially when Carl couldn't produce a hit.

Dennis -- He probably felt this way most of the time in that the band did not take him or his compositions as seriously as they might have.

Bruce -- Considered himself more of a solo artist ("a tangent outside the Beach Boys" as Mike Love undiplomatically put it in 1972) for most of his period in the band.  I don't know that he would have felt stifled so much as that in his mind he always had other fish to fry.

That's my take on it.  Just to anticipate comments here:  this doesn't mean that any of these people were "wronged."  (Dennis, for example, might well have been allowed to lead the band in '69-'70 if he'd had a more stable and reliable personality and hadn't hooked up with Manson) This is just how it goes in bands.

[Lonely Summer]

I find it odd that no one has even mentioned Carl in this thread. I'm sure he felt creatively stifled in the 80s and especially the 90s. His work with Beckley and Lamm in the 90s was probably a welcome break, and I'm thinking that his 2 solo albums were as well.

I do remember reading that Bruce was unhappy with the direction of the group in the early 70s, and that the group was unhappy with him and looking to replace him.

I imagine that Al was disappointed with his song being rejected for the TWGMTR album.

Yeah, I wonder if Carl felt stifled and therefore made the conscious decision not to write more material. I mean, did he have songs just laying around that he never bothered to record or push on the band or is what we have basically the goods?

The last time Carl really put the extra effort out for the group was the 1985 album, three solid songs, but after that...nothing. He probably recognized that his songs did not fit the formula, it had to be fun, sun, and surf again, under ML's direction.

[retrokid67]

I wish in the 80s they would have mixed it up with the old and the new like they did in the 70s, even though by then they had been out for 20 years they were still to young to be a "walking jukebox", especially with all that great songwriting talent they had

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'd guess Brian felt stifled in the late '60s and again in the mid '70s when he felt like he couldn't do what he wanted to do without being pressured to write something with commercial potential for the group.  As John Stone noted, he was allowed to come up with a lot of weird stuff.  But his point doesn't really stand in that it's not like the band really ENCOURAGED it.  They just tolerated it.

I was responding to the point of the thread - being STIFLED - not whether the respective band member was encouraged or tolerated. To me, that's two different issues. The fact that the guys were in the studio providing (excellent) backing vocals on many of the tracks I listed indicates that they were at least cooperative. And, the fact that Brian continued to write, what word shall I use - different - songs indicated that he was unaffected by anyone's opinion. Hell, there's even a photo circulating of the guys in Halloween makeup for the "My Solution" session. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I find it odd that no one has even mentioned Carl in this thread. I'm sure he felt creatively stifled in the 80s and especially the 90s. His work with Beckley and Lamm in the 90s was probably a welcome break, and I'm thinking that his 2 solo albums were as well.

I do remember reading that Bruce was unhappy with the direction of the group in the early 70s, and that the group was unhappy with him and looking to replace him.

I imagine that Al was disappointed with his song being rejected for the TWGMTR album.

Yeah, I wonder if Carl felt stifled and therefore made the conscious decision not to write more material. I mean, did he have songs just laying around that he never bothered to record or push on the band or is what we have basically the goods?

The last time Carl really put the extra effort out for the group was the 1985 album, three solid songs, but after that...nothing. He probably recognized that his songs did not fit the formula, it had to be fun, sun, and surf again, under ML's direction.

Interesting viewpoint considering ML wrote exactly how many fun, sun, surf songs from 85 onward?

California Calling? .... Wait that was Al and Brian!
Kokomo? .... Sure, that counts. Fair enough
Island Girl? ..... Al again.
Summer Of Love
Island Fever
Still Surfin .... Egad!
Summer In Paradise? .... More of an ecological plea than a fun in the sun ditty.
Daybreak Over The Ocean? ... Lyrics are too sensitive and melancholy to count.
Beaches In Mind? .... More Brian, Joe Thomas than Mike. Or at least the blame is heavily shared here.
Spring Vacation? .... Same explanation as above.

So, that totals 4 arguably "fun in the sun" songs thanks to Mike from 1985 onward...... Hardly signs of an iron grip on musical direction.

[adamghost]

I'd guess Brian felt stifled in the late '60s and again in the mid '70s when he felt like he couldn't do what he wanted to do without being pressured to write something with commercial potential for the group.  As John Stone noted, he was allowed to come up with a lot of weird stuff.  But his point doesn't really stand in that it's not like the band really ENCOURAGED it.  They just tolerated it.

I was responding to the point of the thread - being STIFLED - not whether the respective band member was encouraged or tolerated. To me, that's two different issues. The fact that the guys were in the studio providing (excellent) backing vocals on many of the tracks I listed indicates that they were at least cooperative. And, the fact that Brian continued to write, what word shall I use - different - songs indicated that he was unaffected by anyone's opinion. Hell, there's even a photo circulating of the guys in Halloween makeup for the "My Solution" session.  

No, it's actually no indication whatsoever that he was unaffected by anyone's opinion.  It's just evidence that they cooperated on the specific songs you point out.  It doesn't speak at all to whatever pressures he may have been under to do something else, however many times he may have been coerced to contribute when he didn't really want to, how many things didn't see the light of day.  And the topic of the thread is not BEING stifled.  It's about FEELING stifled and those are two completely different things.  Fact:  Brian put "'Til I Die" away for a year because someone in the band didn't like it.  Fact:  Brian abandoned "Mount Vernon and Fairway" because the band reacted poorly to it.  Fact: the band did not want Brian to be doing the Big Band sessions in '77.  It is also alleged that Brian was prevented from working with Bruce and Terry on the Equinox deal by the band in '75 by having his advance money transferred out of his account (Carl admitted as much publicly, though claimed it was to prevent Brian from buying drugs).  And so on.

Now, look -- I personally think the examples I mentioned, at least in two cases above, are fairly defensible creative decisions.  I'm not dissing the band for reacting the way they did and Brian was certainly over-sensitive.  But to suggest that just because they went along with some kooky ideas of Brian's that means Brian never felt stifled creatively flies in the face of the reality of what we know.

I get your point.  I think it's valid.  But it doesn't prove anything relative to what the thread is about.  Did Brian feel creatively stifled by the band at various points in their career?  Of course he did.  It's silly to imply otherwise when the man has said as much publicly himself.  The fact that he did sometimes get his way, or that the band made creative decisions (sometimes justified, sometimes not so) that favored Brian's desires at some times (but not others), does not mitigate how Brian felt about the matter, or the objective reality of the situation.

I gotta add, JS, that if you'd had experience in a band, you wouldn't take what got released as objective evidence of anything.  The creative process can be a meat grinder.  If something saw the light of day, or someone sang on it, or whatever, it doesn't necessarily mean all the members supported it or that the creator completely got his or her way.  That's simply not how it works.