Describe the differences between Phil Spector's production style and Brian's

[Smile4ever]

Much is made of the influence of Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound" style on Brian Wilson. While the influence is certainly prevalent, is the comparison a little bit overblown? I always tend to think that Brian's productions "breathe" a lot more, which I prefer. But I'd like to hear from folks with a more extensive music background talk about this (and everyone else here).

[joshferrell]

I was thinking about this the other day, To me Phil's songs, as Terry Melcher described, was more angry, and when I listen to his stuff it sounds like he's trying to be loud and in your face, it's as if he had all the knobs in one spot and just recorded all of his songs the same way, at least in the early mono years, I think that Brian had a softer more relaxing feel to it which makes it more beautiful IMO... for example the sound he uses for "Please let me wonder" is so pretty, also I  noticed Brian's songs still sound good when mixed to stereo Phils songs actually sounds worst in stereo IMO, also when Phil Moved to stereo completely for example the "let it be" album it didn't sound that good to my ears, and the stuff he did for Harrison and Lennon, even though interesting, was loud and in your face but instead of mono it was stereo and it actually kind of hurts my ears when I listen to them... yes I agree with Terry ANGER is the word I would describe Phil's production

[joshferrell]

That reminds me, I was listening to "Death of a ladies man" by Leonard Cohen and thought to myself, "This sounds A LOT like Lennons "Rock N roll" album so I looked it up and yes it was produced by Phil, he seemed to been using the exact production that was used for both Rock N Roll, a lot of flange and loud music,it doesn't stick out or anything as far as production goes, neither does the "Imagine" album, and "All things" was just loud..and "Let it be" Phil's dubs were just pointless..

[Phoenix]

Easy: Mud vs. clarity.  Some of Brian's original mono mixes may have buried parts we didn't originally hear but His stuff always had a "sheen" to it that Spector lacked. If stereo is color and mono, black and white, Spector is the old Bakelit set my dad first had, with the 9" screen, while Brian is the one I had in my room, growing up in the '70's.  Great picture and clarity, just no color.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian quickly realised something Phil never fully grasped: less can be more.

[Kurosawa]

The quest for beauty that Brian and the Boys always strove for really shows in their records and in their vocals, and Brian recorded both with that goal in mind. Even their uptempo tunes have a lot of really pretty touches to them. They all got their musical outlook from Brian and it really shows...sometimes when Mike is talking about how pretty a song is, you can hear his voice break a little. It's just what is important to them, musically. Phil was much more of a rough, rock and roll guy and that's better for what he did. Even though the Beach Boys were a garage band in the very beginning, no garage band or band of any other kind before or since has had vocals like they had. It's just on a totally different level. Even Surfin Safari is beautiful in it's own way if you really listen to the harmonies and the vocal lines. Those surf records are a ton more complex than people think they are.

[Mike's Beard]

Brian quickly realised something Phil never fully grasped: less can be more.

A good example is Darlene Love's version of Chapel of Love compared to the more well known Dixie Cups version. 

[clack]

Phil -- Wall of Sound
Brian -- Window of Sound

That is, Phil goes for a dense, instrumentally-undifferentiated sound. It's opaque. With Brian, you can hear the layers. It's transparent.

[buddhahat]

Funny because I was thinking about this also just the other day - specifically the idea of Phil's 'angry' sound vs brian's mellower wall of sound. You can hear the anger in Spector's productions and it's great. There's something very aggressive about the Treasure's Hold Me Tight for instance. Maybe it's the sharp drums - like gunshots.  Spector's productions are often extremely exhilarating - a release of tension - which is not something I would necessarily associate with BW productions.

It got me thinking about anger in Brian's music - Whether there are any examples of this. Is that what he's expressing in the Fire music? That kind of wailing riff that he recyled for Who ran The Iron Horse, and later with Transcendental meditation. There's definitely something he's expressing there. Or maybe it's a scream of desperation or anguish?

[Sheriff John Stone]

It got me thinking about anger in Brian's music - Whether there are any examples of this.

There are a couple of little riffs in, of all albums, Pet Sounds, that express, if not anger, a feeling of angst or discomfort. The beginning and ending of "I'm Waiting For The Day", that combination of keyboard and bass harmonica in "I Know There's An Answer", and parts of "Here Today", especially the bridge.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

I'm not an expert on music production, and I am much more familiar with Brian's music than Spector's, so I might be oversimplifying things here.  Still, it seems to me that even at the top of his game, Spector's production style is much more formulaic than Brian's, and his songwriting style and production style don't inform each other in quite the same way.  Both Brian and Spector liked very dense, baroque productions and were well aware that it was sometimes effective to have a more stripped-down production-wise portion of the song.  The thing is, Spector's transition between "stripped-down" and "baroque" is quite predictable: on "Then He Kissed Me" and "Be My Baby," for example, he starts from one line of the song's basic melody, then the next line will add another instrument, then another, then another, until it builds to its full strength with all the instruments and backing vocals (usually by the second verse), and then brings it very briefly back to the original "basic mode" just before the end.  As I said, I'm not as familiar with Spector's music as with Brian's, so I may be oversimplifying things, but I think most of his productions from the mid-60s that I've heard follow this basic formula.  Songwriting-wise, they also tend to follow the standard verse-chorus structure.

As I said, Brian also emphasizes the baroqueness of his production style with "stripped-down" moments (think of the a cappella portions of "Salt Lake City" or "Sloop John B," though there are many other examples).  But he seems to be more comfortable with more sudden shifts between "baroque" and "stripped-down" than Spector's careful building of layers of instruments.  Think of the beginning of "Wouldn't it Be Nice," which starts, like a Spector production, with just a simple melody on what sounds (to my ears) like a single instrument, but instead of slowly layering the instruments on top of each other, line after line, there is a sudden drum and the songs production suddenly explodes into its full glory.  And when he scales the production back near the end of the song, he similarly slows the tempo of the song itself, so I think we can say that Brian's songwriting and production styles are interrelated, while they don't seem to be as much for Spector.  The sudden transitions are probably most obvious in Brian's modular work from Smile, particularly in "Cabin Essence."

In any case, I'm not sure how well I've described what I'm talking about, since I'm not an expert on the way that music is written or recorded.  This is just the way that it sounds to my ears.

[D Cunningham]

Is it the old tension between shtick and high art?  Where shtick is meant as a slight pejorative and high art involves great experimentation and surprise.

but...what gorgeous shtick is Be My Baby.


I love what Sonny did here--definitely a Spector reference (palette, echo, etc.), yet thinner and transparent (an idea noted above).
(I'm guessing Sonny was producer...whatever)

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRKPhjn4jyQ

[guitarfool2002]

I'd recommend searching this board's archives for similar threads and discussions, there are some good ones from the past to be found!

The "anger" comment is very perceptive and also valid. It was one of Spector's subtle methods using psychology as a producer. He would work the musicians to the bone, nearly exhaust them of energy, and keep them recording take after take. He was using psychology in how he knew some would get more angry as the session dragged on and they'd continue to fatigue, and that aggressiveness would soon come out in their playing. And that's the aura Spector wanted on those backing tracks, he wanted the band to sound aggressive and angry on take 27 even if the band had nailed it on take 2.

Some studio legends refused to work with him. I found out recently that guitarist Howard Roberts was one of them. Spector had Roberts playing 12-string acoustic guitar on a session, and he kept insisting on take after take from Roberts to the point where it actually f***ed up Howard's fretting hand and he needed medical treatment and rehab as a result. So he'd refuse to play Spector's sessions. Yet Spector had his core group which knew his working methods and went along for the ride, even though it often led to a tense atmosphere and physical stress but Phil was making successful records. This got downright bizarre once Spector got into his gunplay phase.

In contrast, I have never heard any musician speak a bad word about Brian in the studio in the 60's, in fact many of them say he was a joy to work with who took extra care of the studio musicians and would often deliberately go 5 minutes into overtime playing an unnecessary take so they could get paid extra for their efforts, even though the best take was already on tape and the session was essentially over.

The psychology affects the mood of the records - just compare anything on Pet Sounds to Spector's work from the same era and you'll hear sunshine on one and clouds on the other. 

[CenturyDeprived]

I implore anyone who's a fan of Pet Sounds (and on this board, I'd imagine that would be approximately 100% of y'alls) to give a listen to this (You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling - instrumental backing track):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wGW3PXD39k

This version is simply majestic + stunning... I discovered this recently and was totally blown away.

As enormous a fan as I am of BW, it would be difficult for a BW fan to listen to this and not be awestruck by how much Brian was very, very deeply influenced by Phil. Not a news flash of course, this is pretty much common knowledge - but the degree to which BW learned (and in some cases "lifted") production techniques from Phil is pretty massive (this track was recorded in '64). 

This backing track sounds near equal to me like a Pet Sounds backing track from the Pet Sounds box set. If you played someone not familiar with either artists' work, they'd probably think these were composed by the same artist (obviously, the Wrecking Crew musicians are similar, if not the same to the ones who played on Pet Sounds).

I think the real differences between Brian and Phil's styles are with their vocal arrangements. Brian's are simply untouchable.

But with some of Brian's/Phil's backing tracks stripped of vocals, there are some insanely striking similarities.  Certainly, Brian evolved to many other places as an artist (beyond this '64-'66 specific style/sound), and ultimately Brian's productions reached areas of emotionality that Phil never reached. But I also feel, IMO that in some ways, some of Phil's productions are untouchable in their greatness, even by BW. I think this backing track is on par with Pet Sounds backing tracks, no doubt to my ears. I hope that one day, a deep cuts Phil Spector box set is properly released (Pet Sounds Sessions style) with backing tracks like this. It would seem that Phil's wife could use the cash, so maybe it will happen.

[RONDEMON]

^^ wow.
That is VERY cool. Lots of the same tricks used on "I Just Wasn't Made..." and "Let's Go Away for a While."

Especially the different piano rhythms in the choruses interacting with the straight 4/4 drums and the static basslines. I think this might be the real link to Pet Sounds from a production standpoint.

[rab2591]

Especially the different piano rhythms in the choruses interacting with the straight 4/4 drums and the static basslines. I think this might be the real link to Pet Sounds from a production standpoint.

Don Randi played piano on both 'You've Lost That Lovin Feeling' and 'I Just Wasn't Made For These Times', so that may have a lot to do with the similarities of the rhythm - especially during the chorus.

[kwan_dk]

I implore anyone who's a fan of Pet Sounds (and on this board, I'd imagine that would be approximately 100% of y'alls) to give a listen to this (You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling - instrumental backing track):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wGW3PXD39k

This version is simply majestic + stunning... I discovered this recently and was totally blown away.

(...)

I think the real differences between Brian and Phil's styles are with their vocal arrangements. Brian's are simply untouchable.

But with some of Brian's/Phil's backing tracks stripped of vocals, there are some insanely striking similarities.

Good point. But this is not only because of the lack of any vocals. This version of Lovin' Feeling lacks the subsequent string overdubs which I think were much more central to Phil's sound than what is often acknowledged. Sure, Phil had 5-6 guitars strumming all at once, three pianos, tons of castanets, sometimes two drummers etc - but when you think about it, and which this session take of Lovin' Feelin' and other Philles backing tracks floating around demonstrate, it was the final layers of strings as well as massed chorus backing vocals that really made Phil's overall 60s sound seem much more cluttered and 'angry' than Brian's more breathy style. As much as I love Phil Spector's 60s stuff, I enjoy his 70s productions just as much since the stereo recordings from that area enable you to seperate the backing tracks and the strings better when listening. And once you're able to experience that, like with this string-less take of Lovin' Feeling, you begin to see how much alike Brian's and Phil's approach was for a few years during the 60s. For the same reason I quite enjoy some of the stereo mixes of Spector's 60s stuff that a lot of people, including Spector himself, disown. There are so many great details buried in those songs. They are much more than just a sonic slam in the face, providing you're able to listen 'through' the all of sound.

[monicker]

Brian's productions were more subtle, nuanced, and varied, not so one-dimensional or formulaic, and you can hear a greater variety of texture and color in them. He also covered significantly more styles of music and types of arrangements, which has to factor into how they were produced. And you can’t overstate that most of Brian’s productions, more than anyone else’s, were ultimately a vehicle or showcase for the vocals, often complex ones, despite the backing tracks standing on their own as great achievements in and of themselves. Brian evolved at a startling pace, and i think he left Phil in the dust, though obviously Brian owes a great deal to Phil, who sort of provided him with a blueprint of sorts with which to to start off. 

I'm not an expert on music production, and I am much more familiar with Brian's music than Spector's, so I might be oversimplifying things here.  Still, it seems to me that even at the top of his game, Spector's production style is much more formulaic than Brian's, and his songwriting style and production style don't inform each other in quite the same way.  Both Brian and Spector liked very dense, baroque productions and were well aware that it was sometimes effective to have a more stripped-down production-wise portion of the song.  The thing is, Spector's transition between "stripped-down" and "baroque" is quite predictable: on "Then He Kissed Me" and "Be My Baby," for example, he starts from one line of the song's basic melody, then the next line will add another instrument, then another, then another, until it builds to its full strength with all the instruments and backing vocals (usually by the second verse), and then brings it very briefly back to the original "basic mode" just before the end.  As I said, I'm not as familiar with Spector's music as with Brian's, so I may be oversimplifying things, but I think most of his productions from the mid-60s that I've heard follow this basic formula.  Songwriting-wise, they also tend to follow the standard verse-chorus structure.

As I said, Brian also emphasizes the baroqueness of his production style with "stripped-down" moments (think of the a cappella portions of "Salt Lake City" or "Sloop John B," though there are many other examples).  But he seems to be more comfortable with more sudden shifts between "baroque" and "stripped-down" than Spector's careful building of layers of instruments.  Think of the beginning of "Wouldn't it Be Nice," which starts, like a Spector production, with just a simple melody on what sounds (to my ears) like a single instrument, but instead of slowly layering the instruments on top of each other, line after line, there is a sudden drum and the songs production suddenly explodes into its full glory.  And when he scales the production back near the end of the song, he similarly slows the tempo of the song itself, so I think we can say that Brian's songwriting and production styles are interrelated, while they don't seem to be as much for Spector.  The sudden transitions are probably most obvious in Brian's modular work from Smile, particularly in "Cabin Essence."

In any case, I'm not sure how well I've described what I'm talking about, since I'm not an expert on the way that music is written or recorded.  This is just the way that it sounds to my ears.

Maybe i'm mistaken about the way you mean “dense,” but as i think you mean it, it is contradictory to baroque. Ensembles in the baroque era were relatively small, not characterized by a “big” sound, as the music was typically written one part per instrument. Baroque is stripped down (relative to the classical and romantic era symphony and concerto, and large scale 20th century concert music). In this respect, the wall of sound is, in fact, the opposite of baroque.

Considering this, as well as a lack of counterpoint, there’s really nothing baroque about Spector’s productions. What you describe in Brian’s music with the sudden shifts in instrumentation (which usually resulted in a shift in dynamics as well) is a characteristic of the baroque concerto grosso. So, considering this, as well as Brian’s music being highly contrapuntal for pop music, the term baroque fits the Beach Boys much more so, if one is so inclined to apply it to pop music. You occasionally hear Phil’s productions described as Wagnerian. Can’t really get more at odds than baroque and Wagner.

[Wirestone]

An important point to add -- Phil was not an arranger. He had guys to actually chart out the songs for him. And while the Wrecking Crew certainly had a say in Brian's arrangements (I've always held that Brian's productions have been essentially collaborative from the start), you ultimately can't compare someone who writes a song, prepares a basic arrangement, and produces it, to someone (Phil) who really only focused on the final step.

If you think about it, that's why Brian's work for other artists has always fallen short. He can't help but create personal material, or stuff suited for his group. When he tries to move it outside the family, or tries to consciously emulate an outsiders' perspective, it falls flat. Spector didn't have those kind of ties to his material or his performers, which meant he could ultimately make hits for many different artists (and kinds of artists).

[donald]

Brian quickly realised something Phil never fully grasped: less can be more.

A good example is Darlene Love's version of Chapel of Love compared to the more well known Dixie Cups version. 

I PREFER the Darlene Love version.  That  might just be the ultimate STROLL song.  I prefer Dixie Cups doing IKO.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

Brian's productions were more subtle, nuanced, and varied, not so one-dimensional or formulaic, and you can hear a greater variety of texture and color in them. He also covered significantly more styles of music and types of arrangements, which has to factor into how they were produced. And you can’t overstate that most of Brian’s productions, more than anyone else’s, were ultimately a vehicle or showcase for the vocals, often complex ones, despite the backing tracks standing on their own as great achievements in and of themselves. Brian evolved at a startling pace, and i think he left Phil in the dust, though obviously Brian owes a great deal to Phil, who sort of provided him with a blueprint of sorts with which to to start off. 

I'm not an expert on music production, and I am much more familiar with Brian's music than Spector's, so I might be oversimplifying things here.  Still, it seems to me that even at the top of his game, Spector's production style is much more formulaic than Brian's, and his songwriting style and production style don't inform each other in quite the same way.  Both Brian and Spector liked very dense, baroque productions and were well aware that it was sometimes effective to have a more stripped-down production-wise portion of the song.  The thing is, Spector's transition between "stripped-down" and "baroque" is quite predictable: on "Then He Kissed Me" and "Be My Baby," for example, he starts from one line of the song's basic melody, then the next line will add another instrument, then another, then another, until it builds to its full strength with all the instruments and backing vocals (usually by the second verse), and then brings it very briefly back to the original "basic mode" just before the end.  As I said, I'm not as familiar with Spector's music as with Brian's, so I may be oversimplifying things, but I think most of his productions from the mid-60s that I've heard follow this basic formula.  Songwriting-wise, they also tend to follow the standard verse-chorus structure.

As I said, Brian also emphasizes the baroqueness of his production style with "stripped-down" moments (think of the a cappella portions of "Salt Lake City" or "Sloop John B," though there are many other examples).  But he seems to be more comfortable with more sudden shifts between "baroque" and "stripped-down" than Spector's careful building of layers of instruments.  Think of the beginning of "Wouldn't it Be Nice," which starts, like a Spector production, with just a simple melody on what sounds (to my ears) like a single instrument, but instead of slowly layering the instruments on top of each other, line after line, there is a sudden drum and the songs production suddenly explodes into its full glory.  And when he scales the production back near the end of the song, he similarly slows the tempo of the song itself, so I think we can say that Brian's songwriting and production styles are interrelated, while they don't seem to be as much for Spector.  The sudden transitions are probably most obvious in Brian's modular work from Smile, particularly in "Cabin Essence."

In any case, I'm not sure how well I've described what I'm talking about, since I'm not an expert on the way that music is written or recorded.  This is just the way that it sounds to my ears.

Maybe i'm mistaken about the way you mean “dense,” but as i think you mean it, it is contradictory to baroque. Ensembles in the baroque era were relatively small, not characterized by a “big” sound, as the music was typically written one part per instrument. Baroque is stripped down (relative to the classical and romantic era symphony and concerto, and large scale 20th century concert music). In this respect, the wall of sound is, in fact, the opposite of baroque.

Considering this, as well as a lack of counterpoint, there’s really nothing baroque about Spector’s productions. What you describe in Brian’s music with the sudden shifts in instrumentation (which usually resulted in a shift in dynamics as well) is a characteristic of the baroque concerto grosso. So, considering this, as well as Brian’s music being highly contrapuntal for pop music, the term baroque fits the Beach Boys much more so, if one is so inclined to apply it to pop music. You occasionally hear Phil’s productions described as Wagnerian. Can’t really get more at odds than baroque and Wagner.

Silly me.  I'm not a music person, and wasn't even thinking of the specific way that the term "baroque" is used in reference to classical music.  I was using it in the more general sense of "ornate," which (I think) is what it generally means outside of a musical context.

[donald]

Baroque , in these parts, refers to something busted or broken.    for example. "my car is baroque". Or "can you lend me some money ,I'm baroque?

[Pretty Funky]

No record of Brian packing a weapon in the studio to get the best out of the boys as far as I know.

[puni puni]

There really isn't much difference if you're comparing the right tracks.

http://youtu.be/m_Su1FHN4QE
Walking in the Rain => You Still Believe In Me
Do I Love You => Heroes and Villains
So Young => I'm So Young (duh)
Be My Baby => post-1963 discography
You Baby => On Christmas Day
How Does It Feel => Child Is Father of the Man
Chapel of Love => Chapel of Love (duh)

That's just this album alone! I always wonder why Presenting The Fabulous Ronettes gets almost zero acknowledgements despite it being essentially a prototypical Pet Sounds.

[Mike's Beard]

I'm hoping the recent Phillies Album Set goes some way towards reappraising Phil's album work, he was one of the first guys to get out of the '1 hit and 11 fillers' album mentality.