The Big Beat 1963

[SMiLE Brian]

This thread really is the "old guard" of BBs fandom reunited.

[Smilin Ed H]

Is there anything these guys don't know??

Do you know why we can't get the bloody thing in the UK???

[bgas]

Is there anything these guys don't know??

Do you know why we can't get the bloody thing in the UK???

EMI stupidity

[bgas]

Fascinating notion, and an excellent collection - looking forward to it..

However, is there any documentary proof that Brian had anything to do with the five Honeys demos ? It's 35 years ago now, but I recall that when they were included in a Derek Bill Honeys boot box set, they were said to be done by the girls as publishing demos, and had no BW involvement whatsoever. Not convinced about "Make The Night..." either - doesn't sound much like a BW '63 effort. More like... Murry, if anything.

I believe "Make the Night" is a Nik Venet production -- like "From Jimmy with Tears."  That's my fault, as I helped Dave with that paragraph, and I should have written it "Beach Boys- and Brian Wilson-related..."

BTW, the arrangement of "Make the Night" owes a lot to this version by The Palisades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU8TR-08yyU


Lee

Really like listening to the Honeys version, but ( and I only skimmed this post originally)   "Owes a lot" is a mighty big understatement! Updated copy is more like it.  

And as I continue to listen to "The Big Beat" , I'm struck by how cool it has to be to be considered a "go to guy"when Capitol needs good recordings. You da man, Lee!!

[LeeDempsey]

Fascinating notion, and an excellent collection - looking forward to it..

However, is there any documentary proof that Brian had anything to do with the five Honeys demos ? It's 35 years ago now, but I recall that when they were included in a Derek Bill Honeys boot box set, they were said to be done by the girls as publishing demos, and had no BW involvement whatsoever. Not convinced about "Make The Night..." either - doesn't sound much like a BW '63 effort. More like... Murry, if anything.

I believe "Make the Night" is a Nik Venet production -- like "From Jimmy with Tears."  That's my fault, as I helped Dave with that paragraph, and I should have written it "Beach Boys- and Brian Wilson-related..."

BTW, the arrangement of "Make the Night" owes a lot to this version by The Palisades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU8TR-08yyU


Lee

Really like listening to the Honeys version, but ( and I only skimmed this post originally)   "Owes a lot" is a mighty big understatement! Updated copy is more like it.  

And as I continue to listen to "The Big Beat" , I'm struck by how cool it has to be to be considered a "go to guy"when Capitol needs good recordings. You da man, Lee!!

I think it's just because I'm the only one not smart enough to ask for a "usage fee" for my acetates!

You know, Chris, I should have told them to contact you about the "Johnny Dew" acetate.

Lee

[The Shift]

Johnny who?

[Mikie]

"Johnny Dew" was actually Brian Wilson. 

He was credited with Farmers Daughter (Nov-62 written & produced) and Lana (Nov-62 written & produced).

[Andrew G. Doe]

Long story short, there's an acetate of alternate versions of "Lana" & "Farmer's Daughter" credited to "Johnny Dew" seemingly recorded 1/16/63 and according to 'manager' Shane Wilder in New York at Fine Studio while the band were on tour. Small problem - the band weren't on tour anywhere in January 1963 and wouldn't hit NYC until very late August. Nik Venet implies the tracks were recorded in LA, possibly at the Tower: maybe yes, maybe no, but the simple fact he knew anything about it strongly argues against a session in NYC (aside from the fact they weren't there anyway).

[PaulTMA]

I wish I could listen to this magical-sounding collection of mp3s.   

[LeeDempsey]

Long story short, there's an acetate of alternate versions of "Lana" & "Farmer's Daughter" credited to "Johnny Dew" seemingly recorded 1/16/63 and according to 'manager' Shane Wilder in New York at Fine Studio while the band were on tour. Small problem - the band weren't on tour anywhere in January 1963 and wouldn't hit NYC until very late August. Nik Venet implies the tracks were recorded in LA, possibly at the Tower: maybe yes, maybe no, but the simple fact he knew anything about it strongly argues against a session in NYC (aside from the fact they weren't there anyway).

OK, I have another theory...  Perhaps these tracks were also under consideration for Aldon Music as part of BW's songwriting portfolio, Brian sent Al Nevins and Don Kirshner (both in NYC) a tape, and Aldon got Fine Studio to cut an acetate for their files?  Just speculating...

Lee

[Andrew G. Doe]

I may be misremembering Wilder's part in this... but the fact is the tracks could not have been cut in NYC because the band weren't there, individually or collectively. And, sorry Lee, but the acetate has a Radio Recorders label: all that likely means is that the disc was pressed up there. That said, cutting the tracks there would make much more sense. Duh... I used the words "make" and "sense" in a Beach Boys context. Think I'd know by you, wouldn't you ?

Nik Venet's recollection (I know...) could be read as the tracks being cut at the Tower... but then, surely the acetate would have a Capitol label.

[LeeDempsey]

I may be misremembering Wilder's part in this... but the fact is the tracks could not have been cut in NYC because the band weren't there, individually or collectively. And, sorry Lee, but the acetate has a Radio Recorders label: all that likely means is that the disc was pressed up there. That said, cutting the tracks there would make much more sense. Duh... I used the words "make" and "sense" in a Beach Boys context. Think I'd know by you, wouldn't you ?

Nik Venet's recollection (I know...) could be read as the tracks being cut at the Tower... but then, surely the acetate would have a Capitol label.

Ahh that's right; I should have pulled out my photocopies of the acetate labels before opening my mouth and inserting my foot...

Lee

[CenturyDeprived]

I still have yet to download this set (I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction against paying for mp3s/non-physical releases, but I will nevertheless buy this soon)... but from all this very interesting talk in this thread, one thing occurs to me.

This set of music seems to really be evidence of how Brian, even at a very early stage in his music career, was struggling to figure out whether a given song was "suitable" for the BBs. I see it almost as if the "inappropriate music" saying that he repeated over the years about how SMiLE was not the “right” music that the BBs should have been recording/releasing was in his head from a far earlier era, since his early songs that seemed to stray the most outside of the very early BB Surfin’ Safari/Surfin’ USA surf formula were the songs that he gave to/wrote for other artists. Granted, the BBs eventually became BW’s vehicle for almost all of his output.

Do we know if all the songs on this set were originally intended for other artists, or if perhaps any of them were initially conceived as BB songs, but then determined by BW to be more suited to be recorded for other artists? (Rabbit’s Foot, Surfer Moon, etc).

IMO, it’s fascinating to me that many of Brian’s better, or at least more interesting songs of the very early years (like Cindy, Oh Cindy, Lana, The Baker Man, or even Land Ahoy) went unreleased, while the main problem that the Surfin’ Safari album suffers from is that its songs sound too much alike, tempo and structure wise, at least to my ears (and it could’ve benefitted from some of these tracks in place of some of the tracks actually on the record).

I guess one could chalk this up to the “surf” noose that Brian probably felt around his neck more tightly at the very beginning, when the band was figuring out if it was gonna be just a novelty act, or a vehicle for Brian to be more ambitious with. Do we know why Ten Little Indians was chosen as the 2nd single off Surfin’ Safari? (I assume it was a conscious effort/statement for the BBs to not be solely a “surf” band).

[The Shift]

Seems the release of all those Beatles goodies hasn't stemmed a bootleg tide…





These are both SIX CD sets… cripes!

[bgas]

I may be misremembering Wilder's part in this... but the fact is the tracks could not have been cut in NYC because the band weren't there, individually or collectively. And, sorry Lee, but the acetate has a Radio Recorders label: all that likely means is that the disc was pressed up there. That said, cutting the tracks there would make much more sense. Duh... I used the words "make" and "sense" in a Beach Boys context. Think I'd know by you, wouldn't you ?

Nik Venet's recollection (I know...) could be read as the tracks being cut at the Tower... but then, surely the acetate would have a Capitol label.

Ahh that's right; I should have pulled out my photocopies of the acetate labels before opening my mouth and inserting my foot...

Lee

Ahh, I generally don't remember all of all this stuff!  Shane Wilder being dead makes it a bit of a bother to get any more details from him( fact or fiction)
That said, I'm not sure what the hooey is about Radio Recorders. with them being located in Hollywood CA; I could see some ?? is they were in NYC , I guess

[Mikie]

If you're a Beatle collector worth his weight in gold, you'll get 'em all. 40 smackers. The first 25 or so percent are outtakes from Please Please Me/With The Beatles. The remaining 75% are Top of the Pops/BBC. Outtakes are in better quality than bootlegs.

[Jim Murphy]

MESSAGE from VICKIE KOCHER (VICTORIA HALE)

I had the always pleasant opportunity to chat with Victoria and she had a few things she asked me to pass on to the dearly devoted . . .

First and foremost, she is deeply appreciative of Lee Dempsey, as I am sure she has told him many times, and his efforts to make the release of THE SUMMER MOON a reality.  The process by which she hand-delivered a fragile acetate made with Brian Wilson and Bob Norberg, which she has treasured for fifty years, was very smooth and professional.  As in Lee's excellent interview with Vickie in ESQ (Spring 2011), she is just thrilled that her song with Brian is finally out there for people to enjoy.

Second, she would like to clarify that her name is Vickie Kocher (not Korcher as appeared on the track list on Amazon and itunes). Professionally, she adopted her mother's maiden name of Hale.  So, as a professional actress, she goes by the name Victoria Hale.

She confirmed, allaying the doubt in my cynical ears, that it is indeed Bob Norberg singing on "The Big Beat" and "Ride Away."  Although she did point out, as she did in Lee's interview, I believe, that Brian often sang along with them, sometimes singing a guide vocal softly in their ears.  So, I wonder if Brian doubles Bob to some extent on "Ride Away?"  Vickie pointed out that she was very familiar with Bob's singing voice as they sang "The Summer Moon" together and she also heard several other songs he had done or was working on.

She will get back to us whether she thinks "First Rock And Roll Dance" might be the instrumental track for "Rock and Roll Bash," written by Brian, Bob Norberg, and Vickie.


SHANE WILDER

Perhaps no more enigmatic figure in early Beach Boys' history than Shane Wilder. As the self-professed "first manager of the Beach Boys," who claimed he "met them at Hawthorne High School in 1960" and "had run into Brian in a store,"  one would reasonably expect Wilder to be a wealth of information about the band's early history. Well, one would be wrong. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to find Shane Wilder. I know more Shane Wilders now than I thought humanly possible. All of them fine people.  None of them that Shane Wilder. I have good reason to suspect that, sadly, he is no longer with us.  But he was a real person. He did exist. He had a daily, syndicated four-hour radio show in LA called "Spotlight on Music," reportedly owned a record store in Thousand Oaks (although a search of 1960-1963 Yellow Pages proved indeterminate and somewhat fruitless), and formed a record production company with LA businessman Herb Warme. Hence the "Wil-War Record Productions" notation that appears on the "Lana" / "Farmer's Daughter" (Johnny Dew) acetate manufactured at Radio Recorders, 7000 Santa Monica Boulevard, that Andrew explained so well and so succinctly, is indeed Shane WILder and Herb WARme.  So, he was involved with the band.  But to what extent? Well, that's debatable. I suspect that, later in life, he may have embellished his credentials and association with the Beach Boys. That's not uncommon. I love that word "embellished." It forgives so many sins. The only interview with Wilder I am aware of was conducted by Dominic Priore in his first Dumb Angel Gazette.  Here are some excerpts from that interview in which Wilder discusses "Surfin'." --  "In four weeks they'd hit the number 32 spot in Billboard.  We never got to number one with "Surfin'" because the Kingston Trio had a record out called "Tom Dooley" which, I'm sure you'll recall, stayed in the charts for five weeks at number one."  Well, as a rule of thumb, when you're interviewing someone and they make three false statements in one sentence, there's good reason to start doubting everything they say. Sure, "Tom Dooley" ruled the charts . . . in fall 1958! Three years before "Surfin'" was released. And "Surfin'" peaked in Billboard at #75 and never had a chance at #1.  But I'll cut Wilder some slack as it did reach #3 in LA on KFWB for the week ending February 16, 1962.  Wilder goes on to make a frustrating number of true, semi-true, and utterly false statements during the interview. Suffice it to say that everything he said about Candix Enterprises, Inc., is untrue. Wilder goes into great length describing the Beach Boys' East Coast promotional tour of New York radio stations. A tour that, as Andrew pointed out, never happened.  They were in the midst of the Surfin' USA album sessions and trying to bounce back after "Ten Little Indians," a respectable #49 hit, but a disappointing and illogical follow-up to "Surfin' Safari." Wilder states they recorded four songs at Fine Studios in NYC, including thirty-three takes of "Farmers Daughter," but had to come back the following night during which time they nailed "Farmer's Daughter" in one take.  

The JOHNNY DEW reference, according to Nick Venet, came about because Murry was always getting on Brian saying, "Brian do it. Brian do it, just do it." Well, according to Venet, Brian sought advice from a recording engineer on how to handle Murry, and the engineer suggested, "Well, you could change your name to Johnny." Hence, 'Johnny Dew' became their inside joke on Murry.  This is all from Stephen J. McParland's pioneering work interviewing music industry figures,many of whom had a direct impact on the Hawthorne Hotshots and, quite frankly, are no longer with us. Without Stephen's work their stories would have been lost forever. Beach Boys' fans everywhere owe a debt of gratitude to Stephen.    

CENTURY DEPRIVED

Excellent points.  I have always found it quite remarkable that Brian was working with so many diverse artists in 1963 -- Bob and Sheri, Bob and Vickie, the Honeys, Jan & Dean, the Survivors, Sharon Marie, the Castells, the Timers -- all while producing three albums with the Beach Boys, three double-sided hit singles, and a perennial Christmas single ("Little St. Nick"). A phenomenal output.  Especially considering that just a few months earlier the Capitol contract had struck so quickly that they were hustled into the studio with precious little material to record. Hence, the reason for the month lag between the first session on August 8th (the day Marilyn Monroe was laid to rest) and September 5th and 6th, when they wrapped up the album.  When Capitol arranged for the lease of "Surfin'" from Hite Morgan for $1, they bumped "Land Ahoy" and it became the album's only outtake. There wasn't a lot of depth to those first sessions in terms of extra songs in the can.  Fast forward six to nine months, and it seems Brian has music coming out of every pore in his body. Really an exponential growth as an artist.  "Ten Little Indians" was a controversial choice.  Brian had suggested "Chug-A-Lug" in a radio interview given July 14 at the First Annual Diaper Derby sponsored by the Downtown Merchants Association in Oxnard, California (Derek Bill's old stomping grounds). Nick Venet, on the other hand, had heard about a song called "C.C. Cinder," written by two East Coast songwriters, that he felt could be a big hit and he wanted Brian to record it with the Beach Boys as their follow-up single to "Surfin' Safari" b/w "409." Venet also knew that his buddy Russ  Regan had written a song called "The Cinnamon Cinder (It's A Very Nice Dance)"  All of this because Joey Dee and the Starliters had scored a huge hit with "The Peppermint Twist" inspired by the New York nightclub of the same name. And KRLA disc jockey Bob Eubanks was getting ready to open his first Cinnamon Cinder night club in Long Beach, CA.  Both Regan and Venet wanted to beat the other to the punch with a record tie-in to the club.  Regan won out and had the Pastel Six, later the house band at the Cinnamon Cinder, record his song and it was a sizable hit, especially in LA. Brian hated "C.C. Cinder." justifiably so, in my humble, and refused to record it. For some reason, "Chug-A-Lug" got vetoed, perhaps by Venet, and they went with "Ten Little Indians" with a beautifully incongruous picture sleeve, because nothing says "Ten Little Indians" like five guys holding a surfboard!  When "Indians" stalled at #49 it gave Murry more ammunition to rail against Gary Usher (the co-writer of "Indians" and its flip side, "County Fair") and Venet for pushing "Indians" as the follow-up. But, in Usher's and Venet's defense, there were very few contenders for the all-important follow-up single.  A quick run down of the album tracks, excluding what had already been released as singles, does not reveal a strong front runner. Personally, I've always wondered how "Chug-A-Lug" would have fared as a single.  And what a cool picture sleeve they could have photographed at the A&W Root Beer stand on Hawthorne Boulevard!      

[metal flake paint]

For some reason, "Chug-A-Lug" got vetoed, perhaps by Venet, and they went with "Ten Little Indians" with a beautifully incongruous picture sleeve, because nothing says "Ten Little Indians" like five guys holding a surfboard!  

The Danes had the right idea

[bgas]

For some reason, "Chug-A-Lug" got vetoed, perhaps by Venet, and they went with "Ten Little Indians" with a beautifully incongruous picture sleeve, because nothing says "Ten Little Indians" like five guys holding a surfboard!  

The Danes had the right idea

Yep. Good Idea making those feathers appear to be surfboards!

[Jim Murphy]

You guys crack me up. 

But you'e right, at least the Danish EMI art director designed a unique picture sleeve that was associated with the song title. What a quirky sleeve. Of course, today that sleeve would be banned for being politically incorrect. Of course, so would bgas, but that's another story   

That's a really rare sleeve.  Manfred was kind enough to make me a color photocopy until I could trade a kidney for an original.  I used to joke with Manfred by telling him that I thought my international sleeve collection was pretty good, that is, until his book came out. Hardest country to collect, imho?  Italy.

[metal flake paint]

Jim, was there a particular Italian sleeve(s) that proved the most difficult to snare?

[Don Malcolm]

This thread just gets better and better--amazing stories from all. What a superb early Xmas present! Thanks to all--and don't stop, please!!!

Much of this seems to confirm what many of us seem to see as a key thread in BBs history...that Brian's most significant steps forward as a songwriter and producer took place away from his work with the band, whereupon he would then reapply what he'd learned to taking the BBs music forward a notch or three.

[Jay]

This is the greatest Beach Boys related thread I've ever read.  These threads make me wish I had been around and been a fan back in the day.

[Cliff1000uk]

Can I just say a massive thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread.
I think on Christmas Day, when everyone is sleeping off their goose and wine, I'm going to get myself a cigar and a smalll single malt and start from the very beginning

[Smilin Ed H]

This IS a great thread and it reminds me why this board can be so good. It's nice to read a thread where someone isn't having a pop at Mike or Brian or where someone is using something said in error or haste - or error of judgement - to jump all over another poster (and then back it up with asshat emails...). 

Special tip of the hat to Mikie too!