Dennis Wilson is insanely overrated

[Rotat]

I have to agree with Gabo for the most part, but I do like some of Dennis's songs ("Be with Me," "Celebrate the News," "Never Learn Not to Love," "Slip On Through," "WIBNTLA," "My Love Lives On.") Most of his work just isn't that impressive to me and is sort-of boring.

Like Gabo said, most of the lyrics are really cliched and the melodies aren't too great, either. Also, his music has never really caught my attention. Most of it seems bland, but I appreciate his attempts to experiment, like "Steamboat."
To me, Dennis would be like if Brian had grown up on 70's rock.

I've listened to POB once or twice, hoping it would live up to everything I've heard. It kinda let me down. It seemed like an average seventies release spurred on by the romanticism of Dennis's story. It's his swan song. It seems like, from reading people's response, that they mostly love Dennis's music from learning about his past, which isn't really a fair way to judge music. Although, I'll admit, it happens all the time to Brian as well.

I once read/heard a description of "Only with You" that I dig: "It's not as good as it thinks it is."

I think the hype of POB can be harmful for someone listening to it expecting something grandiose and brilliant. When I first heard it I couldn't really get into it much either. I always loved his stuff, especially the piano ballads in the Beach Boys but POB came across as more straight forward 70's rock to me that was kind of boring at times and I didn't feel it had any strong melodies. Compared to Brian's music, even at the time, it really doesn't but it has a lot of depth to it. There's a lot of creative things going on in it. It's very unusual too and not really like any other album in 1977. Some weird arrangements on that album and song structures that got in my skin over time. "Friday Night" and "Dreamer" are 2 pretty strange and unique arrangements for example.

[Peter Reum]

The Beach Boys would have been severely diminished had Dennis not been in the group. His visceral music and magnetism attracted women to a group whose music,  at last initially, was mostly about cars and surfing. Brian and Carl were not the focus in those early years.....almost all eyes were on Dennis. Dennis  exuded sexual energy, as did his music. He brought charisma to a group who desperately needed it. As time passed, Brian taught Carl and Dennis studio craftsmanship, and they ran with it, with each of them shining in his own way. Carl shined as a producer/studio facilitator, vocalist, and composer. Dennis brought sexuality and emotional intensity  to his music in a sensual manner that made him admired by men, and caused women to be attracted almost before they even knew what was happening to them.  Dennis was an alpha male, and yet at the same time was able to expose a type of vulnerability that made women want to forgive him, even when he was "misbehaving."  Just ask any of his former wives or lovers.  His songs are full of this duality, and it is that quality that makes his music so earthy, so powerful.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Each of The Wilson Brothers (as well as each Beach Boy) had special gifts the others either didn't have or were not as good at, which of course just makes for a better group with more variety and charisma. So, I don't see any issue or any reason to compare Dennis to Brian.... Dennis peaked with a solo project that really didn't have anything to do with The Beach Boys letalone Brian and with material that was very very unlike anything Brian had and would ever produce. And that album is a singular, distinct work of genius and it's as good or better than anything Brian ever did........ yet so different that there's no reason to compare.... Once again here we go dissing someone else because to praise them somehow threatens poor little Brian! ... I thought we were long past this!

You behave as Brian drove over a whole pack of your dogs. As it's about the whole extent of your contributions to this board, you're a troll like me, but I admit it.

If Brian ran over a pack of my dogs, the tone would be quite a bit more severe, but thank you for the kinda analysis..... I actually meant exactly what I said. No more and no less.... Qutie the overly sensetive and quick to insult newish lot around here.... I hardly every post anymore and quite likely will not as soon as the force of habit wears off. But insulting me will just make me post more.... Just sayin......

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

The Beach Boys would have been severely diminished had Dennis not been in the group. His visceral music and magnetism attracted women to a group whose music,  at last initially, was mostly about cars and surfing. Brian and Carl were not the focus in those early years.....almost all eyes were on Dennis. Dennis  exuded sexual energy, as did his music. He brought charisma to a group who desperately needed it. As time passed, Brian taught Carl and Dennis studio craftsmanship, and they ran with it, with each of them shining in his own way. Carl shined as a producer/studio facilitator, vocalist, and composer. Dennis brought sexuality and emotional intensity  to his music in a sensual manner that made him admired by men, and caused women to be attracted almost before they even knew what was happening to them.  Dennis was an alpha male, and yet at the same time was able to expose a type of vulnerability that made women want to forgive him, even when he was "misbehaving."  Just ask any of his former wives or lovers.  His songs are full of this duality, and it is that quality that makes his music so earthy, so powerful.

Just watch The T.A.M.I show! There are some shots from behind the Boys where you can see that the entire mass of screaming girls are literally all turned toward Dennis and basically away from the other guys!!!

[clack]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

[Shady]

He wrote Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again), he can't possibly be overrated.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

I see your point and agree, however: to me, Dennis need not be compared to people like Brian: absolute masters and authoirities on formal form/structure and also masters on breaking up/throwing out formal form and structure..... The problem with Dennis in relation to The Beach Boys stigma (and let's be honest, with Dennis, ultimatly it was a stigma) is that he has much more in common with such rebellious and transgressive artists such as Lou Reed, Alex Chilton, John Cale, Kevin Ayers, Nico, Richard Thompson, and the like ..... People don't generally compare those guys to people like Brian or Bacharach, or Mozart, etc, because the important thing with such artists is how they subverted and personalized whatever it is that makes someone a talented writer/composer/singer/musician. Their personalities and quirks were seen as just as valuable as Brian's gifts/skills.... Of course Brian proved he could do all that other stuff too, but as far as Dennis being compared with Brian at his peak, I just happen to think it's unwarrented..... Just my opinion....... Also, Dennis as just a drummer wasn't anything to scoff at either.

[Micha]

Feel Flows is also a good one to play sceptics.

Actually, "Feel Flows" is a song that could turn me into a sceptic. Jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang (ad infinitum)........ That song doesn't do anything for me.

Personally, I think from 1969 until his death Dennis was a better songwriter than Brian. (If you don't compare Breakaway with its flip side, that is! )

[alf wiedersehen]

he has much more in common with such rebellious and transgressive artists such as Lou Reed, Alex Chilton, John Cale, Kevin Ayers, Nico, Richard Thompson, and the like .....

I'm not really sure if I would bunch Dennis in with that group.

This is how I see it: Brian Wilson is to Ray Davies as Dennis Wilson is to Dave Davies.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

He wrote Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again), he can't possibly be overrated.

An even better way to put it...

He wrote Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again). And River Song, Slip On Through, Lady, Cuddle Up, Forever, 4th of July, It's About Time, Moonshine, Celebrate The News, Thoughts of You, Baby Blue, Carry Me Home - he can't possibly be overrated.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I seriously can't even think of a Dennis song that sounds "unique" in any capacity. Even "Forever" sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

Again, I respect your opinions and you got guts (unless you're trolling), but, again, I have to disagree with you.

IMO, much of Dennis Wilson's music sounds as contemporary today as it did when it was recorded 40 years ago. I would include in that list:

- Lady
- Cuddle Up
- Steamboat
- Only With You
- Baby Blue
- River Song
- You And I
- Moonshine
- Thoughts Of You
- End Of The Show

That's 10 songs; I think there's more. I could easily hear them on an album today - using the same versions - and I think they would sound very much 2013. Or 2014. IMO

All true. And besides, what on earth is wrong with sounding 'of the time' anyway?? I mean, the Blade Runner soundtrack was unmistakably written in early '80's - doesn't change the fact that it's brilliant!

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Brian Wilson, one of the greatest musical geniuses of all time.

And you call Dennis insanely overrated?

[buddhahat]

Brian Wilson, one of the greatest musical geniuses of all time.

And you call Dennis insanely overrated?

 

[PaulTMA]

'Cuddle Up' is insanely overrated, I'll give him that at least.

[RangeRoverA1]

The Beach Boys would have been severely diminished had Dennis not been in the group. His visceral music and magnetism attracted women to a group whose music,  at last initially, was mostly about cars and surfing. Brian and Carl were not the focus in those early years.....almost all eyes were on Dennis. Dennis  exuded sexual energy, as did his music. He brought charisma to a group who desperately needed it. As time passed, Brian taught Carl and Dennis studio craftsmanship, and they ran with it, with each of them shining in his own way. Carl shined as a producer/studio facilitator, vocalist, and composer. Dennis brought sexuality and emotional intensity  to his music in a sensual manner that made him admired by men, and caused women to be attracted almost before they even knew what was happening to them.  Dennis was an alpha male, and yet at the same time was able to expose a type of vulnerability that made women want to forgive him, even when he was "misbehaving."  Just ask any of his former wives or lovers.  His songs are full of this duality, and it is that quality that makes his music so earthy, so powerful.

Mr. Reum, you are my favorite BBs insider (at least, you don't involve yourself in all the angry talks the board rushes in sometimes) & just one of the nicest people, but I have to object to you on Dennis. Yes, he isn't ugly & mildly good-looking but the 1st time I saw the band's collective image (circa early 60s), he didn't grab my attention. You would say it's only a photo & of average quality one, but even viewing the videos I never had this thought that "Wow, Dennis looks cool!" My point is, good looks & charisma isn't the essential thing in music-performing. Whoever in mass media created that cliched ideology is immensely stupid, full stop. Isn't it annoying when, say, a very diplomatic lady goes to a BBs concert with her well-bred 15-year-old daughter & they cannot hear the actual singing, only screaming teenage girls? Think about it. And while you think, I'll add - those idolized the most by the girls/guys in the audience are really poor people, because no one takes them seriously. That's why Dennis is underrated as opposed to overrated. He quickly lost talent, sadly.

[I almost foresee filledeplage won't agree with me, judging by what she's written.]

[mtaber]

Dennis unquestionably did some great work. Some of his material ranks with the best of the group's output.  But Brian was able to get his music to the masses, whereas Dennis is more of a cult figure. Brian had the pressure of competing toe to toe with the Beatles. He had the pressure to produce material that supported a large network of family and band mates. That pressure, along with mental illness, caused him to collapse during Smile and through the following decades. Later , when Brian did create music, it was often with the proverbial gun to his head. Dennis perhaps benefitted from not having that pressure. He could do as he pleased.  When it came time to do his solo tour, he backed off. Perhaps he feared that too much commercial success would draw him into that same pressure to produce.

And anyone who lists both "Cuddle Up" and "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" as great songs should remember that they're basically the same song... Sorta like Brian's  "Shortnin Bread"...

[bluesno1fann]

The Beach Boys would have been severely diminished had Dennis not been in the group. His visceral music and magnetism attracted women to a group whose music,  at last initially, was mostly about cars and surfing. Brian and Carl were not the focus in those early years.....almost all eyes were on Dennis. Dennis  exuded sexual energy, as did his music. He brought charisma to a group who desperately needed it. As time passed, Brian taught Carl and Dennis studio craftsmanship, and they ran with it, with each of them shining in his own way. Carl shined as a producer/studio facilitator, vocalist, and composer. Dennis brought sexuality and emotional intensity  to his music in a sensual manner that made him admired by men, and caused women to be attracted almost before they even knew what was happening to them.  Dennis was an alpha male, and yet at the same time was able to expose a type of vulnerability that made women want to forgive him, even when he was "misbehaving."  Just ask any of his former wives or lovers.  His songs are full of this duality, and it is that quality that makes his music so earthy, so powerful.

Mr. Reum, you are my favorite BBs insider (at least, you don't involve yourself in all the angry talks the board rushes in sometimes) & just one of the nicest people, but I have to object to you on Dennis. Yes, he isn't ugly & mildly good-looking but the 1st time I saw the band's collective image (circa early 60s), he didn't grab my attention. You would say it's only a photo & of average quality one, but even viewing the videos I never had this thought that "Wow, Dennis looks cool!" My point is, good looks & charisma isn't the essential thing in music-performing. Whoever in mass media created that cliched ideology is immensely stupid, full stop. Isn't it annoying when, say, a very diplomatic lady goes to a BBs concert with her well-bred 15-year-old daughter & they cannot hear the actual singing, only screaming teenage girls? Think about it. And while you think, I'll add - those idolized the most by the girls/guys in the audience are really poor people, because no one takes them seriously. That's why Dennis is underrated as opposed to overrated. He quickly lost talent, sadly.

[I almost foresee filledeplage won't agree with me, judging by what she's written.]

Yeah, that's true. Al Jardine was the first Beach Boy to grab my attention with his goofy looks lol

[RangeRoverA1]

Yeah, that's true. Al Jardine was the first Beach Boy to grab my attention with his goofy looks.

I get your irony but you're mistaken. No one caught my attention when I was 1st introduced to The BBs. That is, if we count the very 1st picture & then - the very 1st video of them (famous I Get Around clip). Folks state that Al is goofy only because he isn't tall. If he were - all kept silence about his looks, I'm sure. But I still respect your opinion & demand you respect mine - is that much asking?

Also, I'm fairly certain that people with logical minds will absolutely agree with the notion that "Good looks & charisma isn't the essential thing in music-performing". Only the music that matters. It's a well-known fact.

[bluesno1fann]

Yeah, that's true. Al Jardine was the first Beach Boy to grab my attention with his goofy looks.

I get your irony but you're mistaken. No one caught my attention when I was 1st introduced to The BBs. That is, if we count the very 1st picture & then - the very 1st video of them (famous I Get Around clip). Folks state that Al is goofy only because he isn't tall. If he were - all kept silence about his looks, I'm sure. But I still respect your opinion & demand you respect mine - is that much asking?

Also, I'm fairly certain that people with logical minds will absolutely agree with the notion that "Good looks & charisma isn't the essential thing in music-performing". Only the music that matters. It's a well-known fact.

What Irony? I really did agree with you. With the first pictures of the BB's I saw when I was being introduced to the BB's, it wasn't Dennis or Mike or Brian or anyone like that who instantly caught my eye. It happened to be Al Jardine for me, he was/is the most recognisable member, and the first member to get my attention.
And Yes, at the end, only the Music matters, not looks or personal life or etc.

[leggo of my ego]

Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck.


Impressive to have a Mom that is T.A.M.I. alumni... 

But Jagger was too busy trying to fill James Brown's shoes (not possible) and their performance
suffered pretty badly due to that. I usually fall asleep during the RS watching the DVD. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Hey, my mom was there too! She claims to
have smoked cigs out back with The Stones

[SMiLE Brian]

And more than that......

Pinder, get DNA tested.

[DonnyL]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!

[DonnyL]

I think it's helpful to compare Dennis to someone like Jim Morrison -- I think his songwriting and vocals are comparable, but much stronger overall. He just never focused on (or developed) the 'frontman' role. Comparing him to Brian just doesn't work. Brian is really singular. Dennis and Carl knew this and made it their lives' work to support him. When Dennis went off to do his own thing, it was a very humble enterprise. No way he was ever overrated in his lifetime, and I still think he is not properly appreciated today.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And more than that......

Pinder, get DNA tested.

I'm calling Jerry Springer's people ASAP!