Dennis Wilson is insanely overrated

[RioGrande]

Each of The Wilson Brothers (as well as each Beach Boy) had special gifts the others either didn't have or were not as good at, which of course just makes for a better group with more variety and charisma. So, I don't see any issue or any reason to compare Dennis to Brian.... Dennis peaked with a solo project that really didn't have anything to do with The Beach Boys letalone Brian and with material that was very very unlike anything Brian had and would ever produce. And that album is a singular, distinct work of genius and it's as good or better than anything Brian ever did........ yet so different that there's no reason to compare.... Once again here we go dissing someone else because to praise them somehow threatens poor little Brian! ... I thought we were long past this!

You behave as Brian drove over a whole pack of your dogs. As it's about the whole extent of your contributions to this board, you're a troll like me, but I admit it.

[RioGrande]

Have to say this before being banned: agree that Carl is the most underrated Beach Boy.

[Mike's Beard]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

[Smilin Ed H]

I put together a comp of BB stuff from 68 - the present. It's not meant to be a best of, just stuff I like, perhaps the more arty progressive stuff, so I make no apologies for leaving out Kokomo or It's Okay.  Here it is, over four discs:

Disc 1

01.   Old Man River (vocal section) 02.   Soulful Old Man Sunshine 03.   Break Away (alt. version) 04.   Celebrate The News 05.   Sail Plane Song/Carnival 06.   Cotton Fields (The Cotton Song) (single version) 07.   Where Is She? 08.   All I Wanna Do 09.   This Whole World 10.   Slip On Through 11.   Forever 12.   Tears In The Morning 13.   Cool, Cool Water 14.   Fallin' In Love (Dennis) 15.   Sound Of Free (Dennis) 16.   How Sweet (Charles Lloyd with Mike) 17.   Feel Flows 18.   A Day In The Life Of A Tree 19.   Big Sur (early version) 20.   (Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again


Disc 2

01.   Long Promised Road 02.   Disney Girls (1957) 03.   Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song) 04.   4th Of July 05.   'Til I Die 06.   Surf's Up 07.   Out In The Country 08.   You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone 09.   Marcella 10.   Hold On Dear Brother 11.   Cuddle Up 12.   TM (Charles Lloyd with Carl, Mike and Alan) 13.   All This Is That 14.   Sail On Sailor 15.   California Saga (On My Way To Sunny Californ-I-A) 16.   Funky Pretty 17.   We Got Love


Disc 3

01.   The Trader 02.   Carry Me Home 03.   Steamboat 04.   Dom Dom Kingdom 05.   Sweet Mountain (Spring with Brian) 06.   Wishing You Were Here (Chicago with Carl, Dennis and Al) 07.   Had To Phone Ya 08.   Just Once In My Life 09.   Johnny Carson 10.   I'll Bet He's Nice 11.   The Night Was So Young 12.   Lines 13.   That Same Song (with the Double Rock Baptist Choir) 14.   Pitter Patter 15.   Winter Symphony 16.   My Diane 17.   River Song (Dennis) 18.   Pacific Ocean Blues (Dennis) 19.   Moonshine (Dennis) 20.   My Love Lives On (Dennis)


Disc 4

01.   Good Timin' 02.   Baby Blue 03.   Love Surrounds Me 04.   Looking Down The Coast (original version) 05.   California Feelin' 06.   Country Pie (Celebration with Mike) 07.   Angel Come Home 08.   Love Remember Me (Dennis) 09.   Santa Ana Winds 10.   Heaven (Carl) 11.   Where I Belong 12.   Melt Away (Brian) 13.   Somewhere Near Japan 14.   You're Still A Mystery 15.   Midnight's Another Day/Lucky Old Sun Reprise (Brian) 16.   California Dreamin' (Al with David Crosby, Glen Campbell) 17.   Strange World 18.   Think About The Days 19.   From There To Back Again

Apart from the duly noted DW tracks, notice how many of the rest he either wrote or sang. Granted, I've gone for a certain kind of vibe, but you can't seriously tell me he's overrated.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.

Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

[Bean Bag]

I put together a comp of BB stuff from 68 - the present. It's not meant to be a best of, just stuff I like, perhaps the more arty progressive stuff, so I make no apologies for leaving out Kokomo or It's Okay.  Here it is, over four discs:

Disc 1

01.   Old Man River (vocal section) 02.   Soulful Old Man Sunshine 03.   Break Away (alt. version) 04.   Celebrate The News 05.   Sail Plane Song/Carnival 06.   Cotton Fields (The Cotton Song) (single version) 07.   Where Is She? 08.   All I Wanna Do 09.   This Whole World 10.   Slip On Through 11.   Forever 12.   Tears In The Morning 13.   Cool, Cool Water 14.   Fallin' In Love (Dennis) 15.   Sound Of Free (Dennis) 16.   How Sweet (Charles Lloyd with Mike) 17.   Feel Flows 18.   A Day In The Life Of A Tree 19.   Big Sur (early version) 20.   (Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again


Disc 2

01.   Long Promised Road 02.   Disney Girls (1957) 03.   Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song) 04.   4th Of July 05.   'Til I Die 06.   Surf's Up 07.   Out In The Country 08.   You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone 09.   Marcella 10.   Hold On Dear Brother 11.   Cuddle Up 12.   TM (Charles Lloyd with Carl, Mike and Alan) 13.   All This Is That 14.   Sail On Sailor 15.   California Saga (On My Way To Sunny Californ-I-A) 16.   Funky Pretty 17.   We Got Love


Disc 3

01.   The Trader 02.   Carry Me Home 03.   Steamboat 04.   Dom Dom Kingdom 05.   Sweet Mountain (Spring with Brian) 06.   Wishing You Were Here (Chicago with Carl, Dennis and Al) 07.   Had To Phone Ya 08.   Just Once In My Life 09.   Johnny Carson 10.   I'll Bet He's Nice 11.   The Night Was So Young 12.   Lines 13.   That Same Song (with the Double Rock Baptist Choir) 14.   Pitter Patter 15.   Winter Symphony 16.   My Diane 17.   River Song (Dennis) 18.   Pacific Ocean Blues (Dennis) 19.   Moonshine (Dennis) 20.   My Love Lives On (Dennis)


Disc 4

01.   Good Timin' 02.   Baby Blue 03.   Love Surrounds Me 04.   Looking Down The Coast (original version) 05.   California Feelin' 06.   Country Pie (Celebration with Mike) 07.   Angel Come Home 08.   Love Remember Me (Dennis) 09.   Santa Ana Winds 10.   Heaven (Carl) 11.   Where I Belong 12.   Melt Away (Brian) 13.   Somewhere Near Japan 14.   You're Still A Mystery 15.   Midnight's Another Day/Lucky Old Sun Reprise (Brian) 16.   California Dreamin' (Al with David Crosby, Glen Campbell) 17.   Strange World 18.   Think About The Days 19.   From There To Back Again

Apart from the duly noted DW tracks, notice how many of the rest he either wrote or sang. Granted, I've gone for a certain kind of vibe, but you can't seriously tell me he's overrated.

I gotta say... that's a damn-good comp.  Seeing "Love Remember Me" on there, obviously reminded me of that song... and hearing it in my head as I type, it's just fking unreal good.  There's few songs that make me have to stop what I'm doing. You know?

[Bean Bag]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.

Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

Good points.  Carl was certainly integral, and we may never know his full contribution.  Although, when he sings, it's unmistakable.  You know, I've heard people, who don't like the Beach Boys, say they love "I Can Hear Music" and its the best Beach Boys song.  While I don't agree obviously, its someone's valid opinion, and something I found moving, and evidence that with Carl (as with Dennis) there was even more of an audience waiting to be reached by this band.  Brian was just a part, potentially.  Oh... those wasted years.

Carl was the man.

[Mikie]

I put together a comp of BB stuff from 68 - the present. It's not meant to be a best of, just stuff I like, perhaps the more arty progressive stuff, so I make no apologies for leaving out Kokomo or It's Okay.  Here it is, over four discs:

Disc 1

01.   Old Man River (vocal section) 02.   Soulful Old Man Sunshine 03.   Break Away (alt. version) 04.   Celebrate The News 05.   Sail Plane Song/Carnival 06.   Cotton Fields (The Cotton Song) (single version) 07.   Where Is She? 08.   All I Wanna Do 09.   This Whole World 10.   Slip On Through 11.   Forever 12.   Tears In The Morning 13.   Cool, Cool Water 14.   Fallin' In Love (Dennis) 15.   Sound Of Free (Dennis) 16.   How Sweet (Charles Lloyd with Mike) 17.   Feel Flows 18.   A Day In The Life Of A Tree 19.   Big Sur (early version) 20.   (Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again


Disc 2

01.   Long Promised Road 02.   Disney Girls (1957) 03.   Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song) 04.   4th Of July 05.   'Til I Die 06.   Surf's Up 07.   Out In The Country 08.   You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone 09.   Marcella 10.   Hold On Dear Brother 11.   Cuddle Up 12.   TM (Charles Lloyd with Carl, Mike and Alan) 13.   All This Is That 14.   Sail On Sailor 15.   California Saga (On My Way To Sunny Californ-I-A) 16.   Funky Pretty 17.   We Got Love


Disc 3

01.   The Trader 02.   Carry Me Home 03.   Steamboat 04.   Dom Dom Kingdom 05.   Sweet Mountain (Spring with Brian) 06.   Wishing You Were Here (Chicago with Carl, Dennis and Al) 07.   Had To Phone Ya 08.   Just Once In My Life 09.   Johnny Carson 10.   I'll Bet He's Nice 11.   The Night Was So Young 12.   Lines 13.   That Same Song (with the Double Rock Baptist Choir) 14.   Pitter Patter 15.   Winter Symphony 16.   My Diane 17.   River Song (Dennis) 18.   Pacific Ocean Blues (Dennis) 19.   Moonshine (Dennis) 20.   My Love Lives On (Dennis)


Disc 4

01.   Good Timin' 02.   Baby Blue 03.   Love Surrounds Me 04.   Looking Down The Coast (original version) 05.   California Feelin' 06.   Country Pie (Celebration with Mike) 07.   Angel Come Home 08.   Love Remember Me (Dennis) 09.   Santa Ana Winds 10.   Heaven (Carl) 11.   Where I Belong 12.   Melt Away (Brian) 13.   Somewhere Near Japan 14.   You're Still A Mystery 15.   Midnight's Another Day/Lucky Old Sun Reprise (Brian) 16.   California Dreamin' (Al with David Crosby, Glen Campbell) 17.   Strange World 18.   Think About The Days 19.   From There To Back Again

Apart from the duly noted DW tracks, notice how many of the rest he either wrote or sang. Granted, I've gone for a certain kind of vibe, but you can't seriously tell me he's overrated.

Makes you wonder why goofy threads like this get started in the first place, eh Ed?

[Rotat]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.

Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

I really like Goin' South.. Doesn't help that I live in FL now, but when I lived up north, listening to it during winter time when snow was on the ground, fireplace lit, staying cozy in my house during the holidays.. it gives you a really nice warm feeling. It's perfect for the feeling its trying to convey.

I think Carl IS probably the most underrated Beach Boy. People talk about Dennis and praise him. I don't think he gets praised quite enough (this overrated business is ridiculous) but still, there are people out there devoted to his music and sing his praises. I don't really see much praise for Carl. People acknowledge that he has a great voice, but the only praise I really see for him is "God Only Knows" and obvious stuff. Maybe that and "I Can Hear Music".. Aside from this board, I don't remember seeing any praises for Carl anywhere except maybe Endless Harmony or some doc.

Good call on the co-writing credits too. I don't know if a lot of people realize how much he collaborated with Brian, and though it's a 50/50 credit with half in his favor, no one says anything except maybe once in a blue moon on this board about his contributions. I really wonder what he contributed to certain songs actually.

He also co-wrote "Friends", "Sail Plane Song" (which strangely, the credits totally changed when turned into Loop De Loop) and he seemed to do a lot of help production wise on certain songs/albums. He helped Brian finish Surf's Up and Love You and I'm sure there's other things he helped Brian with that I can't remember right now.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.

Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

Good points.  Carl was certainly integral, and we may never know his full contribution.  Although, when he sings, it's unmistakable.  You know, I've heard people, who don't like the Beach Boys, say they love "I Can Hear Music" and its the best Beach Boys song.  While I don't agree obviously, its someone's valid opinion, and something I found moving, and evidence that with Carl (as with Dennis) there was even more of audience waiting to be reached by this band.  Brian was just a part, potentially.  Oh... those wasted years.

Carl was the man.

Speaking of more of audience waiting to be reached by this band, I'm happy to say that I got my mom (who is a child of the 60s) into Dennis' music.  And I can't get her into the BBs to save my life.

My mom was never much of a BB fan (though she likes "Don't Worry Baby"), but in general she doesn't feel that emotional spark or connection to BB music, which I chalk up to both personal taste, as well as bias from the cheesy lilly-white goody-two-shoes BB stereotype that was surely well prevalent in LA in the 60s, where she grew up as a teen. Her fave bands of the era include The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan, Joan Baez, etc. Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck. The most praise she'll give the BBs when I play her tracks is "well, I guess that sounds nice, but it doesn't really do anything for me"... and I've even gone as far as to sit her down and play her The Smile Sessions album reconstruction from start to finish. No dice in making her a BB fan, even when giving her a brief history lesson of Smile in relation to Sgt. Pepper (an album which she deeply loves).

But... when I played her POB, she instantly liked it. Now, one could argue that her taste just gravitates toward a different style than typical BB songs (and it is difficult to say there is a "typical" BB style, with all the styles this band has done throughout the years). But it tells me something: Denny was on to something very special and unique which truly connected to people way outside of the BB universe.

[filledeplage]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.
Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

Good points.  Carl was certainly integral, and we may never know his full contribution.  Although, when he sings, it's unmistakable.  You know, I've heard people, who don't like the Beach Boys, say they love "I Can Hear Music" and its the best Beach Boys song.  While I don't agree obviously, its someone's valid opinion, and something I found moving, and evidence that with Carl (as with Dennis) there was even more of audience waiting to be reached by this band.  Brian was just a part, potentially.  Oh... those wasted years.
Carl was the man.

Speaking of more of audience waiting to be reached by this band, I'm happy to say that I got my mom (who is a child of the 60s) into Dennis' music.  And I can't get her into the BBs to save my life.

My mom was never much of a BB fan (though she likes "Don't Worry Baby"), but in general she doesn't feel that emotional spark or connection to BB music, which I chalk up to both personal taste, as well as bias from the cheesy lilly-white goody-two-shoes BB stereotype that was surely well prevalent in LA in the 60s, where she grew up as a teen. Her fave bands of the era include The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan, Joan Baez, etc. Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck. The most praise she'll give the BBs when I play her tracks is "well, I guess that sounds nice, but it doesn't really do anything for me"... and I've even gone as far as to sit her down and play her The Smile Sessions album reconstruction from start to finish. No dice in making her a BB fan, even when giving her a brief history lesson of Smile in relation to Sgt. Pepper (an album which she deeply loves).

But... when I played her POB, she instantly liked it. Now, one could argue that her taste just gravitates toward a different style than typical BB songs (and it is difficult to say there is a "typical" BB style, with all the styles this band has done throughout the years). But it tells me something: Denny was on to something very special and unique which truly connected to people way outside of the BB universe.

Your mom still has pretty good taste in music and it is ok if she isn't wild about the BB's.  But, she is a wonderful resource of info about how the music of that time evolved.  And she would have great insight anyway.  It is pretty extraordinary that you got her to listen to POB! Bravo and a  for you both!

And, the BB's are connected in lots of ways to the Beatles.  They are a mutual admiration society of sorts, and I think found inspiration from one another.   She must be amazed that you are so interested in this generation of music.  And, she went to the T.A.M.I. Show!  That is historic!

Good for you, both!   

Don't Worry Baby got you in the door!   

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.

Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

Good points.  Carl was certainly integral, and we may never know his full contribution.  Although, when he sings, it's unmistakable.  You know, I've heard people, who don't like the Beach Boys, say they love "I Can Hear Music" and its the best Beach Boys song.  While I don't agree obviously, its someone's valid opinion, and something I found moving, and evidence that with Carl (as with Dennis) there was even more of audience waiting to be reached by this band.  Brian was just a part, potentially.  Oh... those wasted years.

Carl was the man.

Speaking of more of audience waiting to be reached by this band, I'm happy to say that I got my mom (who is a child of the 60s) into Dennis' music.  And I can't get her into the BBs to save my life.

My mom was never much of a BB fan (though she likes "Don't Worry Baby"), but in general she doesn't feel that emotional spark or connection to BB music, which I chalk up to both personal taste, as well as bias from the cheesy lilly-white goody-two-shoes BB stereotype that was surely well prevalent in LA in the 60s, where she grew up as a teen. Her fave bands of the era include The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan, Joan Baez, etc. Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck. The most praise she'll give the BBs when I play her tracks is "well, I guess that sounds nice, but it doesn't really do anything for me"... and I've even gone as far as to sit her down and play her The Smile Sessions album reconstruction from start to finish. No dice in making her a BB fan, even when giving her a brief history lesson of Smile in relation to Sgt. Pepper (an album which she deeply loves).

But... when I played her POB, she instantly liked it. Now, one could argue that her taste just gravitates toward a different style than typical BB songs (and it is difficult to say there is a "typical" BB style, with all the styles this band has done throughout the years). But it tells me something: Denny was on to something very special and unique which truly connected to people way outside of the BB universe.

You tried playing her Holland? Sounds like that'd be way more her cup of tea than something like Smile. And you should leave her to listen to it alone, rather than being there to point out how brilliant it all is. Feel Flows is also a good one to play sceptics.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.
Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

Good points.  Carl was certainly integral, and we may never know his full contribution.  Although, when he sings, it's unmistakable.  You know, I've heard people, who don't like the Beach Boys, say they love "I Can Hear Music" and its the best Beach Boys song.  While I don't agree obviously, its someone's valid opinion, and something I found moving, and evidence that with Carl (as with Dennis) there was even more of audience waiting to be reached by this band.  Brian was just a part, potentially.  Oh... those wasted years.
Carl was the man.

Speaking of more of audience waiting to be reached by this band, I'm happy to say that I got my mom (who is a child of the 60s) into Dennis' music.  And I can't get her into the BBs to save my life.

My mom was never much of a BB fan (though she likes "Don't Worry Baby"), but in general she doesn't feel that emotional spark or connection to BB music, which I chalk up to both personal taste, as well as bias from the cheesy lilly-white goody-two-shoes BB stereotype that was surely well prevalent in LA in the 60s, where she grew up as a teen. Her fave bands of the era include The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan, Joan Baez, etc. Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck. The most praise she'll give the BBs when I play her tracks is "well, I guess that sounds nice, but it doesn't really do anything for me"... and I've even gone as far as to sit her down and play her The Smile Sessions album reconstruction from start to finish. No dice in making her a BB fan, even when giving her a brief history lesson of Smile in relation to Sgt. Pepper (an album which she deeply loves).

But... when I played her POB, she instantly liked it. Now, one could argue that her taste just gravitates toward a different style than typical BB songs (and it is difficult to say there is a "typical" BB style, with all the styles this band has done throughout the years). But it tells me something: Denny was on to something very special and unique which truly connected to people way outside of the BB universe.

Your mom still has pretty good taste in music and it is ok if she isn't wild about the BB's.  But, she is a wonderful resource of info about how the music of that time evolved.  And she would have great insight anyway.  It is pretty extraordinary that you got her to listen to POB! Bravo and a   for you both!

And, the BB's are connected in lots of ways to the Beatles.  They are a mutual admiration society of sorts, and I think found inspiration from one another.   She must be amazed that you are so interested in this generation of music.  And, she went to the T.A.M.I. Show!  That is historic!

Good for you, both!  

Don't Worry Baby got you in the door!  

Yeah, I’m more or less done trying to “convert” her to realize the brilliance of this band. I did play her a few “wilderness years” deep cuts here and there (possibly some Holland stuff), plus Pet Sounds - but didn’t get much response. She won’t really connect with any of it… but POB was a different story – and she seemed to “get it” upon just 1 listen. It’s not like she’s some tremendous Denny fan now or anything, but she digs the album - POB resonated with her in a way very quickly, in a way that the BB never really did. Now maybe part of it is also partly psychological, since the name Dennis Wilson doesn’t have the “BB” stereotype baggage that a song under the “BB” banner could have to someone who grew up with the BB stereotype deeply ingrained; but still, I feel it’s indicative of Denny’s solo music having a special something, that even goes beyond what the cream of the BW-penned BB song crop has. But at the end of the day, it is comparing apples and oranges.

For me, being a tremendous fan of 60s music in general, I felt I’d want to do my part to get her into the BB, probably the most overlooked bands of the era for her. But maybe I went wrong when trying to tell her the BBs are in a similar league to The Beatles. She has a tremendous emotional and sentimental attachment to The Beatles; she says listening to them is like “listening to friends”. Unfortunately, actually listening to “Friends” has no effect on her. 

[bluesno1fann]

To say something instead of only answering: Dennis died in 1983, God Only Knows what he could have done (but I think he would be as great as Brian, now). Brian didn't, and reading the posts here it seems most of you actually regret that. You treat everything Brian did after 1967/1970/1973/1976 (according to how deep your particular bias runs) as negligible. Like there was no Rio Grande. No That Lucky Old Sun. No Gershwin. No 4 last songs in TWGMTR. Hell, I would dump all those damn surf/cars/girls songs for Brian's solo career.

Agreed. Although really the Gershwin album is just an album of covers.

[Gabo]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how dated Dennis's music sounds. Dennis's songs were very derivative of contemporary 60s and 70s music and are much harder to appreciate imo than Brian's much more creative songwriting.  You may say that Brian could never make anything like POB, but that's because Brian's musical and lyrical ideas far surpassed contemporary cliches.

I honestly think it overrates Dennis to consider him the second best songwriter of the band after Brian. None of the other members of the band deserve the privilege to be compared to Brian in that capacity. Dennis may have written a couple good songs, but not enough to compare him to the man who wrote all of the music that makes the band special.

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how dated Dennis's music sounds. Dennis's songs were very derivative of contemporary 60s and 70s music and are much harder to appreciate imo than Brian's much more creative songwriting.  

This is similar to the broad brush Brian's detractors paint him with because his music is so obviously derivative of '50's and early 60's music...doo wop, Berry, Spector, etc... It's  a bad argument because each guy took the influences that were meaningful to them and made it unique in their own way.

[Mr. Wilson]

I do believe JON is correct.. Great analogy..

[Gabo]

Not a bad argument at all. Brian really made something of his influences: Pet Sounds and Smile. Though he still drew on Spector for inspiration, his gifts for melody and production were so well developed by that time he was able to make music that really transcended his influences, and sounded like nothing produced before or since. I seriously can't even think of a Dennis song that sounds "unique" in any capacity. Even "Forever" sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

[18thofMay]

I hate commenting on threads which are based on one persons opinion and rarely post lately anyway. But I just would like to add that discovering more  of DW work with particular reference to POB,Bambu and MIC box has for been a revelation. DW music to me seems more relevant now more than ever it sounds fresh, soulful and leaps out to me. It feels natural and in touch with my surrounds (Australia-water, nature, coastline and love). I now listen to a "best of" DW mix comprised of his Beach Boys and solo work and it is my preferred option most days.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how dated Dennis's music sounds. Dennis's songs were very derivative of contemporary 60s and 70s music and are much harder to appreciate imo than Brian's much more creative songwriting.  You may say that Brian could never make anything like POB, but that's because Brian's musical and lyrical ideas far surpassed contemporary cliches.

All of this obviously ventures into IMHO territory, but while there is a very distinctly "of its time" element to much of Denny's POB/Bambu music (synths, etc), it doesn't bug me in the slightest. It doesn't scream "whoa, look at this dated 70s gimmick" anymore than when I listen to Pink Floyd. It fits the music, and it was being progressive at the time.  To me, it still sounds amazing and powerful.

Now, compare to BB songs like "Bluebirds Over the Mountain" or "Student Demonstration Time", or Al's "rad" lyrics in "California Calling", all of which seem much more dated.

[Gabo]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how dated Dennis's music sounds. Dennis's songs were very derivative of contemporary 60s and 70s music and are much harder to appreciate imo than Brian's much more creative songwriting.  You may say that Brian could never make anything like POB, but that's because Brian's musical and lyrical ideas far surpassed contemporary cliches.

All of this obviously ventures into IMHO territory, but while there is a very distinctly "of its time" element to much of Denny's POB/Bambu music (synths, etc), it doesn't bug me in the slightest. It doesn't scream "whoa, look at this dated 70s gimmick" anymore than when I listen to Pink Floyd. It fits the music, and it was being progressive at the time.  To me, it still sounds amazing and powerful.

Now, compare to BB songs like "Bluebirds Over the Mountain" or "Student Demonstration Time", or Al's "rad" lyrics in "California Calling", all of which seem much more dated.

I agree with all this. I don't think that music needs to be progressive like Smile to be enjoyable. What I have been trying to say about Dennis for a long time on this board is that I just find his music "typical." His songs -- to paraquote his entire recorded output -- is something like: "I loooooove youuuu, yooour loooove is beaaaautifuuuul, maaaaaaaakin' looooove." Just very dated stuff that doesn't have much resonance today. The cliches of the time.

I know the lyrics of even the best early Beach Boys songs are dated, but at least those songs have much stronger melodies than anything Dennis ever composed. Those songs resonate in their simplicity and transcend their subject matter.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how dated Dennis's music sounds. Dennis's songs were very derivative of contemporary 60s and 70s music and are much harder to appreciate imo than Brian's much more creative songwriting.  You may say that Brian could never make anything like POB, but that's because Brian's musical and lyrical ideas far surpassed contemporary cliches.

All of this obviously ventures into IMHO territory, but while there is a very distinctly "of its time" element to much of Denny's POB/Bambu music (synths, etc), it doesn't bug me in the slightest. It doesn't scream "whoa, look at this dated 70s gimmick" anymore than when I listen to Pink Floyd. It fits the music, and it was being progressive at the time.  To me, it still sounds amazing and powerful.

Now, compare to BB songs like "Bluebirds Over the Mountain" or "Student Demonstration Time", or Al's "rad" lyrics in "California Calling", all of which seem much more dated.

I agree with all this. I don't think that music needs to be progressive like Smile to be enjoyable. What I have been trying to say about Dennis for a long time on this board is that I just find his music "typical." His songs -- to paraquote his entire recorded output -- is something like: "I loooooove youuuu, yooour loooove is beaaaautifuuuul, maaaaaaaakin' looooove." Just very dated stuff that doesn't have much resonance. The cliches of the time.

Interestingly, I actually used to feel quite similar to you about his music. I liked it enough, but it overall still seemed kinda mushy and plodding at times. (Maybe the only Denny song that I still kinda sorta feel that way about is Make it Good, which I find overwrought). But it just grew on me more and more over time. It seems less "typical" to my ears, and more the work of someone who wasn't formally trained, wasn't adhering to convention, and was really singing from an emotional place in his heart.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I seriously can't even think of a Dennis song that sounds "unique" in any capacity. Even "Forever" sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

Again, I respect your opinions and you got guts (unless you're trolling), but, again, I have to disagree with you.

IMO, much of Dennis Wilson's music sounds as contemporary today as it did when it was recorded 40 years ago. I would include in that list:

- Lady
- Cuddle Up
- Steamboat
- Only With You
- Baby Blue
- River Song
- You And I
- Moonshine
- Thoughts Of You
- End Of The Show

That's 10 songs; I think there's more. I could easily hear them on an album today - using the same versions - and I think they would sound very much 2013. Or 2014. IMO

[alf wiedersehen]

I have to agree with Gabo for the most part, but I do like some of Dennis's songs ("Be with Me," "Celebrate the News," "Never Learn Not to Love," "Slip On Through," "WIBNTLA," "My Love Lives On.") Most of his work just isn't that impressive to me and is sort-of boring.

Like Gabo said, most of the lyrics are really cliched and the melodies aren't too great, either. Also, his music has never really caught my attention. Most of it seems bland, but I appreciate his attempts to experiment, like "Steamboat."
To me, Dennis would be like if Brian had grown up on 70's rock.

I've listened to POB once or twice, hoping it would live up to everything I've heard. It kinda let me down. It seemed like an average seventies release spurred on by the romanticism of Dennis's story. It's his swan song. It seems like, from reading people's response, that they mostly love Dennis's music from learning about his past, which isn't really a fair way to judge music. Although, I'll admit, it happens all the time to Brian as well.

I once read/heard a description of "Only with You" that I dig: "It's not as good as it thinks it is."

[alf wiedersehen]

Carl was the man.

I do, however, love Carl.