Dennis Wilson is insanely overrated

[Jon Stebbins]

Wow I guess things have really cycled a 180 if you think about it. It wasn't too long ago...15 years or less...that Dennis was routinely labeled as the LEAST talented of the Beach Boys. I know it seems ridiculous to many of us now, but a little while back even solid Beach Boys fans and some "historians and authors" tried to tell us that Dennis was a good looking guy with nothing to back it up. They said he didn't sing much on the records (I know, did they ever really listen to a Beach Boys blend?)...they said he never played drums on the records (so stupid and untrue)...they even wrote in some cases that POB had no impact in it's time...geez buy a back issue of Rolling Stone or Creem. Anyway...he became the poster child for "most underrated Beach Boy" by a whole lot of people who started paying attention. Now...in 2013 we got a guy telling us he's "Insanely Overrated"...I got a good laugh out of that one.

Dennis is "insanely overrated" relative to assertions in posts about Dennis and Brian on this board, and not just a recent thread. Obviously we all love the Beach Boys. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend that Dennis Wilson was the second-coming of Beethoven. Obviously, the majority of Beach Boys die hards don't believe that, so I certainly don't want to accuse everyone of holding that opinion. But I have witnessed a vocal minority on this board essentially say that Dennis is as good as Brian. Considering Brian's enormous and rare talent, it's hard to believe that some people hold that bizarre opinion. We don't need to show our support for Dennis and the Beach Boys by making clearly false assertions.

Regarding a few common responses, yes Dennis was probably a better songwriter than Brian in the mid-70s. I wouldn't argue that.  But Brian at his peak versus Dennis at his peak...the two are nowhere even close.

The quote Dennis himself made about the Beach Boys should probably be taken to heart by some fans, even though it was clearly an exaggeration and did not give the other guys nearly enough credit. Dennis was certainly a talented guy who is UNDERRATED by the general public and general Beach Boys fan base. Still, the reality is that Brian was a creative tour de force. There were very few musicians comparable to him in the world, let alone his own band.

Dennis would be the first to agree with your last sentence. And a big part of his problem is that he was always compared to brian, no matter what, which really had to suck...for the reasons you already stated. That's a high bar to reach. Lindsey Buckingham succinctly said Dennis was the closest thing there was to Brian Wilson, he was about half way there. I think what Lindsey was saying is nobody can come close to brian, but there was a guy who was heading in the right direction. Dennis understood Brian's "formula" in a way no one else did. It's all through his music. Not in an obvious way. But in an inside way. You listen to the chords, inversions, choices of bass notes, choices of instrument combinations in his arrangements. He dabbled in harmony, but it was more in the way he put his tracks together that you see fingerprints of Brian. I know a lot of Beach Boys people don't even get that. But ask Desper, ask Hanlon, ask Carl (sorry we can't), ask Daryl Dragon...the list is long. Dennis was Brian's biggest fan, and he shared his secrets on tape. But unlike Brian, Dennis had a relationship with '70's "rock"...if you dig it you'll embrace it, if not it just sounds derivative and plodding. But when it really came together for Dennis he took Brian's sonic bliss, and added his muscle to it...sort of like Led Zeppelin meets Spector. You can hear it in River Song. That is something Brian could not have done. That track is beyond Brian's capabilities in 1975-77. It's gospel/metal with a total Beach Boys vibe happening within it that has nothing to do with "retro"...it's purely moving forward...it grabs the Beach Boys by the collar and drags them into the now. Here's what we could be. Here's what we should be. Dennis knew the way when Brian did not. This is why people make that comparison, and sometimes in DW's favor. Personally for me, Brian is the master, Dennis is the warrior.

[Wirestone]

Brian made music to please his father.

Dennis made music to please himself.

That's the difference in a nutshell. Brian, the introvert, made music in an attempt to find love and companionship. Dennis, the extrovert, made it to express himself in all his overwrought complexity. Totally different guys, making music for totally different reasons.

[Dudd]

Oh, and 'It's Over Now' is awful.

You fiend!

[SMiLE Brian]

Oh, and 'It's Over Now' is awful.

You fiend!

[Rotat]

Oh, and 'It's Over Now' is awful.

Funny I was just thinking recently how amazing "It's Over Now" and "Still I Dream Of It" is. Speaking of Dennis, I wish Adult Child could have been a few of those songs from those sessions with some Dennis songs thrown in there. Would have been classic.

As for the thread, Dennis did "Cuddle Up". He did "River Song". He did "Farewell My Friend". If anyone can get the closest to the most  heartbreakingly beautiful, emotional, tearjerking music Brian was capable of, it's him.

[send me a picture and i'll tell you]

Oh, and 'It's Over Now' is awful.

         

You friend!

[Mitchell]

Is there an in-depth analysis of Dennis's songs anywhere? I'd be interested to see how his "melodic invention" and use of chords, etc. compares to Brian and others. I'm no musicologist or anything but he does have a distinct style. I'd say his singing and delivery add a dimension of emotion (or whatever you want to call it) that elevates his songs.

[Mikie]

I use to think that Dennis essentially died trying to prove himself to his family and to an extent the world. Pretty much his entire adult life he played second fiddle to Brian and I think especially in the 70's, he wanted to be acknowledged for his music, but I don't think he ever really was. I mean, those statements about him and his music by Brian and Al in the Endless Harmony doc - did they ever tell Dennis that in person? Especially Mike and his brothers - all they ever did was give Dennis crap in the 70's (some deserved). POB got some good sales and that must have given him confidence and inspired him a little to write more, and he didn't have the confidence to tour POB without The Beach Boys. Murry didn't live to see all of Dennis' work come to fruition and I think he would have been proud and that alone I think would have made Dennis feel better about himself.

[mtaber]

One thing that I think about is how Brian must have felt about Dennis' musical development and freedom.  In the '70's, here was Dennis, recording whenever and whatever he wanted, and basically being allowed the freedom to do so. If Dennis wanted to do solo stuff, he basically could. If he wanted to give or withhold material from the band, he pretty much could . But if Brian started to work on anything, there was the band, pushing him to "write a hit". There was the manager, running to the press to tell all that "Brian will be all over the new album". Drag Brian to Holland, drag him to Caribou, drag him to Miami. Jeez, the damned studio was in his house for years, if Brian touched the piano, there were hands out, asking for the bread-winner to feed them all. I imagine Brian may have been jealous of Dennis' relative lack of that pressure. And maybe Dennis had a bit of fear over whether the same thing might happen to him if, say, "River Song" became a big Beach Boys hit .

[Gabo]

Is there an in-depth analysis of Dennis's songs anywhere? I'd be interested to see how his "melodic invention" and use of chords, etc. compares to Brian and others. I'm no musicologist or anything but he does have a distinct style. I'd say his singing and delivery add a dimension of emotion (or whatever you want to call it) that elevates his songs.

His songs are nowhere near as complex or well developed as Brian's music. That much can be ascertained just by listening. Songs like "Cuddle Up" and "Make It Good" sound like he didn't know where he wanted them to go, and are similarly marred by lyrical pointlessness.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Comparing Brian to Dennis is like comparing Gershwin to Beethoven, or Elvis to Johnny Cash; neither is better, both are great, but different.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Each of The Wilson Brothers (as well as each Beach Boy) had special gifts the others either didn't have or were not as good at, which of course just makes for a better group with more variety and charisma. So, I don't see any issue or any reason to compare Dennis to Brian.... Dennis peaked with a solo project that really didn't have anything to do with The Beach Boys letalone Brian and with material that was very very unlike anything Brian had and would ever produce. And that album is a singular, distinct work of genius and it's as good or better than anything Brian ever did........ yet so different that there's no reason to compare.... Once again here we go dissing someone else because to praise them somehow threatens poor little Brian! ... I thought we were long past this!

[bluesno1fann]

Here's My Opinion:
Brian: Lennon/McCartney/Martin
Dennis: Harrison

And as for the best work for ALL Beach Boys:
Best 60's BB's work: Brian Wilson (No Contest, and a No Brainer)
Best 60's Solo work: Bruce Johnston (I'm not familiar with David Marks's solo work, and Surfers' Pyjama Party is a brilliant album)
Best 70's BB's work: Dennis Wilson (Brian may have made Love You, but Dennis outshines him significantly in the 70's. IMHO No Contest!)
Best 70's Solo work: Dennis Wilson (Pacific Ocean Blue may possibly be the greatest BB's related album other than Pet Sounds/Smile)
Best 80's BB's work: Carl Wilson (The 85 album is a great album, and that's thanks to Carl!)
Best 80's Solo work: Brian Wilson (His 88 album is a pretty good album, despite Brian being under Landy's control at the time)
Best 90's BB's work: Carl Wilson (SIP may be Mike-dominated, and one hell of a sh*t album, but Carl still did great vocal work on that)
Best 90's Solo work: Brian Wilson (Imagination is a brilliant solo album, and it's got Lay Down Burden. How can you compete with that?)
Best 00's BB's work: N/A (There was none)
Best 00's Solo work: Brian Wilson (Brian Wilson Presents Smile, That Lucky Old Sun, what more could I say?)
Best 10's BB's work (So Far): Brian Wilson (That's Why God Made The Radio is the BB's best album since the 85 album, and it's all thanks to Brian!)
Best 10's Solo work (So Far): Al Jardine (A Postcard From California is a great album, plus it has Don't Fight The Sea!)


Anyway, as for Dennis being overrated? Not at all!
Dennis being underrated? In the General Public, hell yes! With the Casual BB's fan's, Yes! With this forum, and other hardcore fans, for the most part he is rated just right: Second best to Brian Wilson.

[startBBtoday]

Each of The Wilson Brothers (as well as each Beach Boy) had special gifts the others either didn't have or were not as good at, which of course just makes for a better group with more variety and charisma. So, I don't see any issue or any reason to compare Dennis to Brian.... Dennis peaked with a solo project that really didn't have anything to do with The Beach Boys letalone Brian and with material that was very very unlike anything Brian had and would ever produce. And that album is a singular, distinct work of genius and it's as good or better than anything Brian ever did........ yet so different that there's no reason to compare.... Once again here we go dissing someone else because to praise them somehow threatens poor little Brian! ... I thought we were long past this!

I disagree with the bolded portion, give or take a couple songs and especially 'River Song,' I like Dennis' Beach Boys contributions more than his solo stuff.

I'd say Dennis peaked with 'Forever,' 'Cuddle Up' or 'WIBNTLA.'

[CenturyDeprived]

IMO, Denny's music really grows on you. I'd always liked his music, but over the years, to my ears, it just gets better and better the deeper you dissect the composition, and listen to the true, true aching in the vocals, his bleeding on tape. I think that some people who don't "get" his music just haven't given it enough of a chance to grow on them.

I absolutely think that learning more about the man, his history/timeline, etc. got me deeper into his music (much like with many artists, of course, but with his music in particular)... but it's also that Denny's work isn't always quite as accessible on initial listenings.  The songs often have more unconventional structures/changes.

I really feel that much of his POB/Bambu work was influenced partially by SMiLE, as far as unconventional and experimental structures/changes happening. Denny clearly was enamored with the SMiLE album, and while his late 70s work was very different compared to SMiLE in terms of its textures/vibe, the structural and emotional ground that he was plowing was nevertheless really intricate and powerful (much like Brian's best work), and those are the areas where he was truly excelling/maturing at as an artist. It really, really sucks we will never know where he might have gone artistically.

Anyone else think that "School Girl" is one of the great lost BB-related hits? It sounds like a very calculated and clear cut attempt to make a popular radio hit (and I mean that in a good way), and I think it could've been a successful single, had it been marketed/released/promoted properly.

[Howie Edelson]

There's no better example of apples and oranges than the whole Dennis vs. Brian bit. Especially because people compare Dennis' late-'60s/'70s works with Brian's pre-'67 "heyday." But, whatever...

The similarities are that both tied the spiritual with the romantic. Brian's thing -- even PET SOUNDS -- was based on a prolonged adolescence. Even his later works always had one foot in adolescent or naive love. Brian was a kid of the '50s and he wrote about affairs of the the heart using Eisenhower colors. The romance always stayed teen-based.  In 1966 he's still singing about what a dream come true it would be to have sex and actually sleep over at a girl's house. 1966!!!!! That's the same year as "Visions Of Johanna," REVOLVER -- and he's taking about "what if's" like he's 15. He was able to go deeper and further in many other areas, but romantically -- in his music -- he was stunted. Even "Our Sweet Love" has far more to do with The Fleetwoods than "Be With Me." Dennis Wilson's thing was man/woman. Primal sh it. It's also very dark and spiritual, but there's a physicality in all of it . There's actual sexuality. Brian never got there. Dennis' romantic works (as if any of them weren't...) were full of ADULT passions. "Tug Of Love" vs. "...Tomboy." I'm not saying that Dennis wasn't damaged, too -- but Dennis was OF the Earth when Brian GONE and writing ridiculous music, e.g. "Lazy Lizzy." We all love that kind of stuff -- because it's brilliant -- but it's absurd music. Whether one digs it or not, Dennis never made invalid music.

Dennis Wilson's stuff is huge. And to say it's overrated -- in any circle at any point -- is simply spraying graffiti on somebody's a garage door for attention.

[alf wiedersehen]

There's no better example of apples and oranges than the whole Dennis vs. Brian bit. Especially because people compare Dennis' late-'60s/'70s works with Brian's pre-'67 "heyday." But, whatever...

Well, it seems fair to compare what are regarded as each other's peaks.

[Bean Bag]

The only thing that Brian had, that Dennis didn't, was access to more resources.  Brian's ability to concoct layers of harmony, for example -- on a piano, or in a barbershop quartet -- bordered on savant.  Mozart.  Bach.  Just an unbelievable capacity to visualize a physical formula in space.

Dennis had a mind like most guys.  But both he and Brian had no difficulty -- and equal talent -- in expressing themselves through music.  I think Brian actually lost (much? some?) of his ability to do this after Landy "cut the wires."  The savant is there... but the regular mind, is damaged.


I've learned a lot, in my short years, about the elusive definition of intelligence -- and thus "genius."  Athletes can be brilliant.  Even genius.  I love genius.  I think Dennis started to find his genius.  Then drank it back away.  Brian certainly did, for awhile.  Brian's genius, coupled with his almost freakish capacity to visualize auditory and harmonic equations (who the fck figures out the Four Freshman harmonies as a kid!!??!!!) made for one of the most fascinating shooting stars in music.


Dennis, however... I think appreciating Dennis' music is a great way to learn about these things.  He didn't have those resources -- the gifts that Brian had.  He had his own, for sure.  But Dennis made due with the rudimentary.

[Howie Edelson]

Absolutely.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

There's no better example of apples and oranges than the whole Dennis vs. Brian bit. Especially because people compare Dennis' late-'60s/'70s works with Brian's pre-'67 "heyday." But, whatever...

Well, it seems fair to compare what are regarded as each other's peaks.

True...but not everybody is in agreement on what time period constitutes their peaks! Many are, true, but it's not quite universal (especially in Dennis's case)

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

The only thing that Brian had, that Dennis didn't, was access to more resources.  Brian's ability to concoct layers of harmony, for example -- on a piano, or in a barbershop quartet -- bordered on savant.  Mozart.  Bach.  Just an unbelievable capacity to visualize a physical formula in space.

Dennis had a mind like most guys.  But both he and Brian had no difficulty -- and equal talent -- in expressing themselves through music.  I think Brian actually lost (much? some?) of his ability to do this after Landy "cut the wires."  The savant is there... but the regular mind, is damaged.


I've learned a lot, in my short years, about the elusive definition of intelligence -- and thus "genius."  Athletes can be brilliant.  Even genius.  I love genius.  I think Dennis started to find his genius.  Then drank it back away.  Brian certainly did, for awhile.  Brian's genius, coupled with his almost freakish capacity to visualize auditory and harmonic equations (who the fck figures out the Four Freshman harmonies as a kid!!??!!!) made for one of the most fascinating shooting stars in music.


Dennis, however... I think appreciating Dennis' music is a great way to learn about these things.  He didn't have those resources -- the gifts that Brian had.  He had his own, for sure.  But Dennis made due with the rudimentary.

Wonderful post, and I think you are right on the money here....

It's easy to see what Dennis could do when he did have access to resources. We have POB because of his basically unlimited access to rescources for a time.

[Lonely Summer]

Each of The Wilson Brothers (as well as each Beach Boy) had special gifts the others either didn't have or were not as good at, which of course just makes for a better group with more variety and charisma. So, I don't see any issue or any reason to compare Dennis to Brian.... Dennis peaked with a solo project that really didn't have anything to do with The Beach Boys letalone Brian and with material that was very very unlike anything Brian had and would ever produce. And that album is a singular, distinct work of genius and it's as good or better than anything Brian ever did........ yet so different that there's no reason to compare.... Once again here we go dissing someone else because to praise them somehow threatens poor little Brian! ... I thought we were long past this!

I disagree with the bolded portion, give or take a couple songs and especially 'River Song,' I like Dennis' Beach Boys contributions more than his solo stuff.

I'd say Dennis peaked with 'Forever,' 'Cuddle Up' or 'WIBNTLA.'

I agree with that. Dennis was coming up with great stuff in the Sunflower/Holland era. I like POB, but I don't hear it as the masterpiece described on this board. IMHO, Carl is the most underrated Beach Boy. Wish I could break it down in an analytical way for you all, the way so many of the musicologists here can, but all I can tell you is that if Carl sang it, I have to hear it over and over and it never gets old for me. He wasn't as prolific a writer as his brothers, but I can't think of anything he wrote that I don't like.

[RioGrande]

Comparing Brian to Dennis is like comparing Gershwin to Beethoven, or Elvis to Johnny Cash; neither is better, both are great, but different.

This Brianista troll agrees (almost).

[RioGrande]

There's no better example of apples and oranges than the whole Dennis vs. Brian bit. Especially because people compare Dennis' late-'60s/'70s works with Brian's pre-'67 "heyday." But, whatever...

The similarities are that both tied the spiritual with the romantic. Brian's thing -- even PET SOUNDS -- was based on a prolonged adolescence. Even his later works always had one foot in adolescent or naive love. Brian was a kid of the '50s and he wrote about affairs of the the heart using Eisenhower colors. The romance always stayed teen-based.  In 1966 he's still singing about what a dream come true it would be to have sex and actually sleep over at a girl's house. 1966!!!!! That's the same year as "Visions Of Johanna," REVOLVER -- and he's taking about "what if's" like he's 15. He was able to go deeper and further in many other areas, but romantically -- in his music -- he was stunted. Even "Our Sweet Love" has far more to do with The Fleetwoods than "Be With Me." Dennis Wilson's thing was man/woman. Primal sh it. It's also very dark and spiritual, but there's a physicality in all of it . There's actual sexuality. Brian never got there. Dennis' romantic works (as if any of them weren't...) were full of ADULT passions. "Tug Of Love" vs. "...Tomboy." I'm not saying that Dennis wasn't damaged, too -- but Dennis was OF the Earth when Brian GONE and writing ridiculous music, e.g. "Lazy Lizzy." We all love that kind of stuff -- because it's brilliant -- but it's absurd music. Whether one digs it or not, Dennis never made invalid music.

Dennis Wilson's stuff is huge. And to say it's overrated -- in any circle at any point -- is simply spraying graffiti on somebody's a garage door for attention.

On the other hand, I disagree with you to such an extent that I won't even bother explaining why. I'll say only that: Dude, I am the greatest Dennis fan around, but you can praise Dennis without treating Brian as some kind of idiot who never grew up (though I understand it's an all too common sport here). Bother you. And I'm sure you don't own a mellotron, either. Don't let me get started about your ideas of "ridiculous music", "absurd music" and "invalid music". What's sad is that, of all the posters here, only a self-styled troll like me will say anything against such nonsense.  

[RioGrande]

To say something instead of only answering: Dennis died in 1983, God Only Knows what he could have done (but I think he would be as great as Brian, now). Brian didn't, and reading the posts here it seems most of you actually regret that. You treat everything Brian did after 1967/1970/1973/1976 (according to how deep your particular bias runs) as negligible. Like there was no Rio Grande. No That Lucky Old Sun. No Gershwin. No 4 last songs in TWGMTR. Hell, I would dump all those damn surf/cars/girls songs for Brian's solo career.

Returning to the topic of this thread: Dennis had not much of a solo career. If he had, you'd all be slashing him to pieces like you do to Brian.