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Author Topic: Dennis Wilson is insanely overrated  (Read 23979 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2013, 03:29:37 PM »

My basic point is that those guys created standard, predictable '70s commercial rock for the most part. I understand there are opinions about which is better. My opinion is that the those artists adhered to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day ... which was stripped-down, singer-songwriter stuff. Dennis went for a sort of unusual '70s wall of sound thing. Can you name any other '70s hit 'ballad' that gets into the territory of 'Thoughts of You'? I mean, like it or not, this was unusual, unique and ballsy material. There were plenty of great artists and great records in the '70s, I just happen to feel that they were not made by Paul Simon, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell. Dennis' material I think is comparable to maybe something like Starsailor by Tim Buckley in it's artistry and depth.  But with in Dennis' unique POP style ... a West-Coast Spector/Beach Boys sound, taken into the '70s.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 03:36:26 PM by DonnyL » Logged

feelsflow
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« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2013, 03:50:16 PM »

Solid Air by John Martyn, a hit around my house.
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...if you are honest - you have no idea where childhood ends and maturity begins.  It is all endless and all one.  ~ P.L. Travers        And, let's get this out of the way now, everything I post is my opinion.  ~ Will
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« Reply #127 on: December 14, 2013, 04:11:10 PM »

Musically Dennis' material is surely not overrated. However his lyrics are to many ears overly saccharine and the lyrical content of many of his songs are about the same thing which takes away a little of the shine. Productionwise I consider POB/Bambu to be very strong with great taste in instrumentation, but imo Dennis 'bleeds' into the tape a little much.
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clack
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« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2013, 04:12:56 PM »

My basic point is that those guys created standard, predictable '70s commercial rock for the most part. I understand there are opinions about which is better. My opinion is that the those artists adhered to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day ... which was stripped-down, singer-songwriter stuff. Dennis went for a sort of unusual '70s wall of sound thing. Can you name any other '70s hit 'ballad' that gets into the territory of 'Thoughts of You'? I mean, like it or not, this was unusual, unique and ballsy material. There were plenty of great artists and great records in the '70s, I just happen to feel that they were not made by Paul Simon, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell. Dennis' material I think is comparable to maybe something like Starsailor by Tim Buckley in it's artistry and depth. Or Bryter Layter by Nick Drake. But with more of a West-Coast Spector/Beach Boys sound, take into the '70s.
'Tonight's the Night' adheres to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day? 'Hejira'?

Judging aesthetic quality is tricky. Yeah, a lot of it is subjective. But still, the Beatles were better than Billy J Kramer and the Dakotas. The Beach Boys were better than Jan and Dean. Or is that just opinion too? No objective truth when judging artistic quality?

And if you strike Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, and Joni Mitchell from the list of great songwriters, let's substitute some others from Dennis's 60's-70's era. Pete Townshend? Ray Davies? David Bowie? Lou Reed? Van Morrison? Or are they too "bland" as well? Because those -- and others even more prominent that I could name -- those are Dennis's contemporaries against whom Dennis is measured when Dennis is called "great" or a genius.

I would rank Dennis as a writer and performer alongside such as Randy California, Chris Hillman, or Dave Mason. Now, I love the songs of those guys -- California and Hillman especially -- just as I love Dennis's. And yes, some of their songs achieve greatness. But writing 3 or 4 great songs is not the standard for consensual greatness as a recording artist.
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donald
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« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2013, 05:12:00 PM »

when in San Francisco, I frequent the very fine vinyl stores in the Haight.    while digging for Beach Boys Gold there a few years ago, a proprietor of one of the shops asked me in a sincere manner if  me if I though DW was really all that great in that he had frequent requests from people willing to pay high prices for POB (prior to the cd release).   I immediately understood his question.   Trouble was I didn't have a good answer.   At that time POB was legendary but generally unavailable.    I am still searching for an answer.........

I will say that I prefer Bambu in that it is more straight ahead in an R&B fashion and not so dramatic and over the top as POB.

The larger answer has to do with, I think, accessibility to the material of a legendary character and entertainer.  Was James Dean all that good?   Was Jim Morrison?  Jackson Pollack?  You get the idea.  Was the music good?   Was the art appealing?   Or is it the legend and personality ?
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2013, 11:37:24 PM »

I am really amazed at how Dennis gets so much attention on this board and Carl gets so little. Carl was the backbone of the Beach Boys live show for many years. He had a great voice on record and in concert and his guitar work was always tasty and well suited for the material. He made two decent solo albums and by many accounts was the glue that kept everyone together at times. Dennis might show up for a gig or not. He might not be fit to play when he did. I am not saying that he wasn't a big part of the group and I love everything he did up through Sunflower. After that, with the exception of Baby Blue, there isn't much that does it for me. A lot of plodding overly sweetened ballads with lyrics that run the gammut of "I love you" to "I am really sorry that I treated you like garbage but I still love you." If Bruce Johnston had done the same songs, they would be dismissed after one playing.

Carl was reliable, dependable, professional - great qualities to have in a human being, but I guess it's seen as boring, where's the drama? Rock snobs love a tragedy - great talent marred by addiction, depression, etc.
 

In that case, it's up to those here that truly love him, to turn him into the tragic figure they can appreciate
It's interesting that one episode of Carl's life that seems to get a lot of talk is his being drunk - or stoned - onstage in 1978. I guess that stands out because again, Carl had always been the dependable one. But damn that Carl, he cleaned up shortly after that tour, thus denying us the tragic ending that other, more erratic artists gave us.  Roll Eyes
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Russ_B66
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« Reply #131 on: December 15, 2013, 06:06:58 AM »

I guess that I find Carl's death from cancer to be pretty tragic. I agree that the 1978 episode really stands out because it was a lapse in professionalism that was rare for him. Even though Carl did not have many songwriting credits, I believe that if one were to be a fly on the wall it would be evident that he was a shaper and editor and had a strong influence on the group's sound.
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #132 on: December 15, 2013, 12:15:43 PM »

I guess that I find Carl's death from cancer to be pretty tragic. I agree that the 1978 episode really stands out because it was a lapse in professionalism that was rare for him. Even though Carl did not have many songwriting credits, I believe that if one were to be a fly on the wall it would be evident that he was a shaper and editor and had a strong influence on the group's sound.
Carl's death was the ultimate tragedy in the history of the Beach Boys, one the group never recovered from.
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bluesno1fann
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« Reply #133 on: December 15, 2013, 01:20:43 PM »

I guess that I find Carl's death from cancer to be pretty tragic. I agree that the 1978 episode really stands out because it was a lapse in professionalism that was rare for him. Even though Carl did not have many songwriting credits, I believe that if one were to be a fly on the wall it would be evident that he was a shaper and editor and had a strong influence on the group's sound.
Carl's death was the ultimate tragedy in the history of the Beach Boys, one the group never recovered from.
Dennis's drowning was the ultimate tragedy. At least Carl's death from cancer was sort-of a natural death.
And the group never fully recovered after Dennis died
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:08:10 PM by PaedoSanta..heheheh » Logged
Alex
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« Reply #134 on: December 15, 2013, 04:30:59 PM »

My basic point is that those guys created standard, predictable '70s commercial rock for the most part. I understand there are opinions about which is better. My opinion is that the those artists adhered to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day ... which was stripped-down, singer-songwriter stuff. Dennis went for a sort of unusual '70s wall of sound thing. Can you name any other '70s hit 'ballad' that gets into the territory of 'Thoughts of You'? I mean, like it or not, this was unusual, unique and ballsy material. There were plenty of great artists and great records in the '70s, I just happen to feel that they were not made by Paul Simon, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell. Dennis' material I think is comparable to maybe something like Starsailor by Tim Buckley in it's artistry and depth.  But with in Dennis' unique POP style ... a West-Coast Spector/Beach Boys sound, taken into the '70s.

Springsteen had a wall-of-sound thing going with the E-Street Band.
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« Reply #135 on: December 15, 2013, 07:02:08 PM »

My basic point is that those guys created standard, predictable '70s commercial rock for the most part. I understand there are opinions about which is better. My opinion is that the those artists adhered to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day ... which was stripped-down, singer-songwriter stuff. Dennis went for a sort of unusual '70s wall of sound thing. Can you name any other '70s hit 'ballad' that gets into the territory of 'Thoughts of You'? I mean, like it or not, this was unusual, unique and ballsy material. There were plenty of great artists and great records in the '70s, I just happen to feel that they were not made by Paul Simon, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell. Dennis' material I think is comparable to maybe something like Starsailor by Tim Buckley in it's artistry and depth.  But with in Dennis' unique POP style ... a West-Coast Spector/Beach Boys sound, taken into the '70s.

Springsteen had a wall-of-sound thing going with the E-Street Band.

Yup, Born to Run especially.
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Gabo
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« Reply #136 on: December 15, 2013, 08:58:28 PM »

I agree completely with the above points but one has to remember, (in most cases) guys like Brian didn't write lyrics at all (or sometimes wrote "meaningless" lyrics) and are judged on the merit of their skills of composition, arranging, melody, etc.  What happens when Dennis's lyrics are removed from the equation.  Does the opinion change? 

For me personally, it doesn't.  I think Dennis wrote a handful of some really GREAT songs (as well as a bunch of good ones and a few clunkers) but I feel those are more the exception than the rule.  Your mileage may vary tho.

I feel Brian's lyrics were generally at least charming when he did write them himself. Whereas a Dennis Wilson song may go "I looooove youuuuuu", a Brian song may go "I love to pick you up, cause you're still a baby to me, cribs and cradles..." He employed metaphors and other literary devices in his songs. They generally have a story to tell, or a "point," if you will, even if it is just to tell his wife that she's his baby (I Wanna Pick You). That is much more creative than merely "I love you," and much more inspiring to hear.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 09:16:31 PM by Gabo » Logged
Lonely Summer
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« Reply #137 on: December 15, 2013, 09:48:17 PM »

I guess that I find Carl's death from cancer to be pretty tragic. I agree that the 1978 episode really stands out because it was a lapse in professionalism that was rare for him. Even though Carl did not have many songwriting credits, I believe that if one were to be a fly on the wall it would be evident that he was a shaper and editor and had a strong influence on the group's sound.
Carl's death was the ultimate tragedy in the history of the Beach Boys, one the group never recovered from.
Dennis's drowning was the ultimate tragedy. At least Carl's death from cancer was sort-of a natural death.
And the group never fully recovered after Dennis died
But at least they soldiered on. After Carl died, the group was no more...unless you count the M&B show as continuing on.
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monicker
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« Reply #138 on: December 16, 2013, 12:04:14 AM »

If you like Dennis' music you think he's underrated. If you don't like his music you think he's overrated. Do these terms mean anything other than stating that you disagree with a certain opinion?

And when someone says that Dennis is overrated, obviously they mean amongst this demographic here, Beach Boys die hards, not the Rolling Stone History of Rock crowd. Dennis Wilson is sacred cow around here. So if you see little merit in his music then he's going to seem overrated. 

I personally don't get the DW appeal and don't know if i ever will. Frankly, i don't care to. I find nothing exciting, challenging or moving in his music, save for a few pre-'74 songs. And it makes perfect sense to me that people who can't get into the Beach Boys for whatever reasons would take an interest in Dennis' '70s material. 
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Don't be eccentric, this is a BEACH BOYS forum, for God's sake!
retrokid67
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« Reply #139 on: December 21, 2013, 12:25:57 PM »

hey my fellow beach boys fans.  I've now been a beach boys fan for 2 years and  I'm so glad I can finally join this board, especially now so I can express my love for the Wilson brothers.  first off, happy birthday to our beloved Carl and second I love Denny and Mr. Stebbins didn't lie when he said that in the early days, he was the one attracting all the fans; it's 50 years later and it's still working because he attracted me LOL.  with all do respect to the posters here, I personally thought this was a bad time to bring this opinion up because we're getting close to the 30th anniversary of his death  Embarrassed  but here I am bringing it up again, but I had to get my two cents in in honor of Denny and his fans.  I personally wish I can go back and time, telling the three Wilson brothers to form their own group and see which one comes out on top.  they were all geniuses in their own rights.   Smiley
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"In this new day, change your heart.  Forgive your brother, for life is precious."

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