Dennis Wilson is insanely overrated

[CenturyDeprived]

Hey, my mom was there too! She claims to
have smoked cigs out back with The Stones

That's awesome And I second the request for you to get a DNA test
Did your mom go to Santa Monica High School? My mom did, which is how she wound up attending The T.A.M.I. Show, since a concert promoter dropped by the campus, offering kids on campus free tickets to see live bands play a concert that same evening across the street, at the Santa Monica Civic Center (R.I.P.).

My mom actually hung out with another T.A.M.I. Show act, The Barbarians, and she has pics to prove it... but she doesn't recall if it was then when they were in town for The T.A.M.I. Show, or possibly at some other time around the similar time period. If only she'd been a BB fan...

[bgas]

Hey, my mom was there too! She claims to
have smoked cigs out back with The Stones

That's awesome And I second the request for you to get a DNA test
Did your mom go to Santa Monica High School? My mom did, which is how she wound up attending The T.A.M.I. Show, since a concert promoter dropped by the campus, offering kids on campus free tickets to see live bands play a concert that same evening across the street, at the Santa Monica Civic Center (R.I.P.).

My mom actually hung out with another T.A.M.I. Show act, The Barbarians, and she has pics to prove it... but she doesn't recall if it was then when they were in town for The T.A.M.I. Show, or possibly at some other time around the similar time period. If only she'd been a BB fan...

Maybe another DNA test is justified

[CenturyDeprived]

Hey, my mom was there too! She claims to
have smoked cigs out back with The Stones

That's awesome And I second the request for you to get a DNA test
Did your mom go to Santa Monica High School? My mom did, which is how she wound up attending The T.A.M.I. Show, since a concert promoter dropped by the campus, offering kids on campus free tickets to see live bands play a concert that same evening across the street, at the Santa Monica Civic Center (R.I.P.).

My mom actually hung out with another T.A.M.I. Show act, The Barbarians, and she has pics to prove it... but she doesn't recall if it was then when they were in town for The T.A.M.I. Show, or possibly at some other time around the similar time period. If only she'd been a BB fan...

Maybe another DNA test is justified

 

[SMiLE Brian]

And more than that......

Pinder, get DNA tested.

I'm calling Jerry Springer's people ASAP!

I say you go on "Maury" instead.                      "In the case of Pinder, Mike Love you are the father!"

[bluesno1fann]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!

You really think Brian Wilson, and to a lesser extent Paul Simon are bland?

[DonnyL]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!

You really think Brian Wilson, and to a lesser extent Paul Simon are bland?

I didn't count Brian on that list, but the others ... yes indeed. Doesn't make 'em bad necessarily, but those artists exemplify the sort of timid, commercial rock of the '70s. Dennis' records had guts & balls, even the pretty stuff. Dennis was a much more honest performer and producer than those in your list there in my opinion. Totally unfiltered, and yeh, uncommercial. What Dennis and Brian have in common more than anything -- and more than any of the other Beach Boys -- is that they were both able to put feelings into music ways that no one else could.

But taste is taste. I would not consider the artists on your list 'true greats' of Dennis' era.

[Gabo]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!

You really think Brian Wilson, and to a lesser extent Paul Simon are bland?

I didn't count Brian on that list, but the others ... yes indeed.

Dennis is blander than all the artists on that list. As several have mentioned, most of his melodies aren't very strong and his lyrics are usually cliched.  Even Forever is a pretty bland song.

Neil Young and Paul Simon may be Bob Dylan wannabes (especially Neil) but at least their lyrics went far beyond the Hallmark cliches of Dennis's songs, and Paul in particular wrote some of the catchiest songs of the 60s, like Feelin' Groovy.

Another flaw of Dennis's music is the complete lack of lyrical coherence of many of his songs. I really don't think the lyrics of To Live Again, for instance, were considered at all. It's just a laundry list of cliches.

I like Dennis's voice and I think it sounds powerful on To Live Again but the song as a whole doesn't go "to the next level" because its lack of lyrical substance. I don't mind that nearly all of his songs are romantic but I do mind that they almost never have "a point." They don't express anything beyond that he's in love with whatever girl he had a fling with at the time.

[startBBtoday]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!

You really think Brian Wilson, and to a lesser extent Paul Simon are bland?

I didn't count Brian on that list, but the others ... yes indeed.

Dennis is blander than all the artists on that list. As several have mentioned, most of his melodies aren't very strong and his lyrics are usually cliched.  Even Forever is a pretty bland song.

Neil Young and Paul Simon may be Bob Dylan wannabes (especially Neil) but at least their lyrics went far beyond the Hallmark cliches of Dennis's songs, and Paul in particular wrote some of the catchiest songs of the 60s, like Feelin' Groovy.

Another flaw of Dennis's music is the complete lack of lyrical coherence of many of his songs. I really don't think the lyrics of To Live Again, for instance, were considered at all. It's just a laundry list of cliches.

I like Dennis's voice and I think it sounds powerful on To Live Again but the song as a whole doesn't go "to the next level" because its lack of lyrical substance. I don't mind that nearly all of his songs are romantic but I do mind that they almost never have "a point." They don't express anything beyond that he's in love with whatever girl he had a fling with at the time.

I'm not an expert on Dennis Wilson lyrics by any means, but "Carry Me Home" and "River Song" are neither romantic nor without a point.

[Lonely Summer]

I think there's a tendency to romanticize the lives and art of guys like Dennis and Jim Morrison - we all love the tale of guys who lived fast and hard, and died tragically young because of it. It lends itself to all kinds of "what if?" scenarios, like "what if Dennis had lived, what if he had cleaned up, and created more masterworks?" Carl's life, in comparison, seems rather dull. Yeah, he had a drug period, a divorce, the fight with the draft board, but much of his later years was consumed with taking care of his brothers, particularly Brian. So I think on this board, and among diehard Beach Boys fans, Dennis might be a bit overrated, but not among the general public who barely know the names of the band members, aside from Brian or Mike.

[Smilin Ed H]

Paul Simon wrote rather more than 'catchy songs.'

Do we have to compare? It's always the same with music. Artist B pisses all over Artist B. Fans both erudite and ignorant indulge in it because it's easy and feeds their prejudices. Dennis remains considerably underrated by music fans in general and by some BB fans.

[Mike's Beard]

Another flaw of Dennis's music is the complete lack of lyrical coherence of many of his songs. I really don't think the lyrics of To Live Again, for instance, were considered at all. It's just a laundry list of cliches.

I like Dennis's voice and I think it sounds powerful on To Live Again but the song as a whole doesn't go "to the next level" because its lack of lyrical substance. I don't mind that nearly all of his songs are romantic but I do mind that they almost never have "a point." They don't express anything beyond that he's in love with whatever girl he had a fling with at the time.

I find WIBNTLA's lyrics to be little more than the 'moon in June' variety. There's no wordplay in the lyrics to Dennis' songs, no story and ultimately as you mention no 'point'. It's the one thing he lacks as a great artist.

[Phoenix]

I agree completely with the above points but one has to remember, (in most cases) guys like Brian didn't write lyrics at all (or sometimes wrote "meaningless" lyrics) and are judged on the merit of their skills of composition, arranging, melody, etc.  What happens when Dennis's lyrics are removed from the equation.  Does the opinion change? 

For me personally, it doesn't.  I think Dennis wrote a handful of some really GREAT songs (as well as a bunch of good ones and a few clunkers) but I feel those are more the exception than the rule.  Your mileage may vary tho.

[Moon Dawg]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!
 

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

[bgas]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!
 

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

You can't be serious. What of any note did Neil Young do in the 70's besides back up  CS&N ??

[Russ_B66]

I am really amazed at how Dennis gets so much attention on this board and Carl gets so little. Carl was the backbone of the Beach Boys live show for many years. He had a great voice on record and in concert and his guitar work was always tasty and well suited for the material. He made two decent solo albums and by many accounts was the glue that kept everyone together at times. Dennis might show up for a gig or not. He might not be fit to play when he did. I am not saying that he wasn't a big part of the group and I love everything he did up through Sunflower. After that, with the exception of Baby Blue, there isn't much that does it for me. A lot of plodding overly sweetened ballads with lyrics that run the gammut of "I love you" to "I am really sorry that I treated you like garbage but I still love you." If Bruce Johnston had done the same songs, they would be dismissed after one playing.

[bgas]

I am really amazed at how Dennis gets so much attention on this board and Carl gets so little. Carl was the backbone of the Beach Boys live show for many years. He had a great voice on record and in concert and his guitar work was always tasty and well suited for the material. He made two decent solo albums and by many accounts was the glue that kept everyone together at times. Dennis might show up for a gig or not. He might not be fit to play when he did. I am not saying that he wasn't a big part of the group and I love everything he did up through Sunflower. After that, with the exception of Baby Blue, there isn't much that does it for me. A lot of plodding overly sweetened ballads with lyrics that run the gammut of "I love you" to "I am really sorry that I treated you like garbage but I still love you." If Bruce Johnston had done the same songs, they would be dismissed after one playing.

Well, what the heck!  Start your "Carl was the Bomb" thread and see where it goes...

[Moon Dawg]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!
 

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

You can't be serious. What of any note did Neil Young do in the 70's besides back up  CS&N ??

  Not much apparently. JOURNEY THROUGH THE PAST maybe?

[bgas]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!
 

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

You can't be serious. What of any note did Neil Young do in the 70's besides back up  CS&N ??

  Not much apparently. JOURNEY THROUGH THE PAST maybe?

YEah, that's as agood an example as any; a bunch of tracks by CSN, Buffalo Springfield, a few neil young  by himself, a BBs. Mostly 60s. Makes Dennis appear a supernova!

[alf wiedersehen]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!
 

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

You can't be serious. What of any note did Neil Young do in the 70's besides back up  CS&N ??

After the Gold Rush, Harvest, On the Beach, Tonight's the Night, and Rust Never Sleeps.

[bgas]

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!
 

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

You can't be serious. What of any note did Neil Young do in the 70's besides back up  CS&N ??

After the Gold Rush, Harvest, On the Beach, Tonight's the Night, and Rust Never Sleeps.

 
Less than great, repetitive LPs. Nothing close in grandeur of scope to Dennis' output! 

[Mike's Beard]

Personal taste but I'd say Harvest whups POB.

[bgas]

Personal taste but I'd say Harvest whups POB.

lack of personal taste it is then!

[Lonely Summer]

I am really amazed at how Dennis gets so much attention on this board and Carl gets so little. Carl was the backbone of the Beach Boys live show for many years. He had a great voice on record and in concert and his guitar work was always tasty and well suited for the material. He made two decent solo albums and by many accounts was the glue that kept everyone together at times. Dennis might show up for a gig or not. He might not be fit to play when he did. I am not saying that he wasn't a big part of the group and I love everything he did up through Sunflower. After that, with the exception of Baby Blue, there isn't much that does it for me. A lot of plodding overly sweetened ballads with lyrics that run the gammut of "I love you" to "I am really sorry that I treated you like garbage but I still love you." If Bruce Johnston had done the same songs, they would be dismissed after one playing.

Carl was reliable, dependable, professional - great qualities to have in a human being, but I guess it's seen as boring, where's the drama? Rock snobs love a tragedy - great talent marred by addiction, depression, etc.

[bgas]

I am really amazed at how Dennis gets so much attention on this board and Carl gets so little. Carl was the backbone of the Beach Boys live show for many years. He had a great voice on record and in concert and his guitar work was always tasty and well suited for the material. He made two decent solo albums and by many accounts was the glue that kept everyone together at times. Dennis might show up for a gig or not. He might not be fit to play when he did. I am not saying that he wasn't a big part of the group and I love everything he did up through Sunflower. After that, with the exception of Baby Blue, there isn't much that does it for me. A lot of plodding overly sweetened ballads with lyrics that run the gammut of "I love you" to "I am really sorry that I treated you like garbage but I still love you." If Bruce Johnston had done the same songs, they would be dismissed after one playing.

Carl was reliable, dependable, professional - great qualities to have in a human being, but I guess it's seen as boring, where's the drama? Rock snobs love a tragedy - great talent marred by addiction, depression, etc.

 

In that case, it's up to those here that truly love him, to turn him into the tragic figure they can appreciate

[donald]

The Beach Boys would have been severely diminished had Dennis not been in the group. His visceral music and magnetism attracted women to a group whose music,  at last initially, was mostly about cars and surfing. Brian and Carl were not the focus in those early years.....almost all eyes were on Dennis. Dennis  exuded sexual energy, as did his music. He brought charisma to a group who desperately needed it. As time passed, Brian taught Carl and Dennis studio craftsmanship, and they ran with it, with each of them shining in his own way. Carl shined as a producer/studio facilitator, vocalist, and composer. Dennis brought sexuality and emotional intensity  to his music in a sensual manner that made him admired by men, and caused women to be attracted almost before they even knew what was happening to them.  Dennis was an alpha male, and yet at the same time was able to expose a type of vulnerability that made women want to forgive him, even when he was "misbehaving."  Just ask any of his former wives or lovers.  His songs are full of this duality, and it is that quality that makes his music so earthy, so powerful.


Peter, your erudition renders my response to this thread unnecessary.   Music aside, DW was a great charismatic entertainer.