AGD's comments

[filledeplage]

Ya know, I read Andrew's comments this morning, and I have to admit that it gave me pause. Definitely kinda made me wonder though, as I never really pegged him as a bigot. Or anti-gay. I kinda thought that was more a middle American WASPy type thing to do, so I was a bit surprised.
Then again, apparently Bruce is a full-fledged tea bagger, and he's AGD's fave Beach Boy. So who knows?

bigot - a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Hmm well under these circumstances I wouldnt peg AGD as a bigot. If what he experienced is true he is just venting some steam. Cant blame the guy myself.
(quote)
My take is that Andrew may have been experiencing what we refer to in the States, as "reverse discrimination."  Here, it comes from Equal Protection.  It means that "similarly situated individuals have to be treated similarly." So, Andrew goes to some office for whatever, and everyone is in the "same boat" there, and needs a life jacket, but, some groups get preferential treatment and are considered (in the States) as "protected classes."

The "protected classes" get a life jacket first.  And, it is the disparate treatment which can feel frustrating.  My impression is that he was "venting his spleen."  

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Exactly. Believe me , I'd be the FIRST person to take offense otherwise!

[Mikie]

Wow, what a charming personal message, ORR.

But, hey, what should I expect from someone who quotes themselves in their own signature?

And I'm the tool...  

I feel less favored now as I had assumed I was the only recipient of a nasty PM  from our friend ORR.

My oh my.

Nope.  I got 3! What a coincidence!

[Mikie]

Wow, what a charming personal message, ORR.

But, hey, what should I expect from someone who quotes themselves in their own signature?

And I'm the tool...  

Wow! You got one too? He must be PM'ing everybody in the Sandbox that doesn't agree with him. Kinda sad really.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Exactly. Believe me , I'd be the FIRST person to take offense otherwise!

As long as you'd be equally as not bothered had it been some regular board member who'd made the comments, than fair enough.

As long as I can make veiled jibes about Muslims (pun intended!) and gays and, er, young pregnant women (those benefit-scrounging sluts!), and as long as no-one can pick me up on it, then fine, argument over.

[Mike's Beard]

In all seriousness I must ask, what exactly is the beef with a non American Indian using an image of one in his avatar? What makes the likeness of your own people so off limits to others?

[SMiLE Brian]

If there was anything to find offense with, it was AGD's comments.


I didn't find them that rude or out of good taste. AGD has been on better behavior recently and has settled back into his role as "crusty BBs expert"....

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Exactly. Believe me , I'd be the FIRST person to take offense otherwise!

As long as you'd be equally as not bothered had it been some regular board member who'd made the comments, than fair enough.

As long as I can make veiled jibes about Muslims (pun intended!) and gays and, er, young pregnant women (those benefit-scrounging sluts!), and as long as no-one can pick me up on it, then fine, argument over.

I did actually have a problem with part of that statement, but since he had already apologized for it and admitted he was out of line on that part, I did indeed let it go. As for the other part of it , filledeplage summed up my feelings at the top of this page.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Exactly. Believe me , I'd be the FIRST person to take offense otherwise!

As long as you'd be equally as not bothered had it been some regular board member who'd made the comments, than fair enough.

As long as I can make veiled jibes about Muslims (pun intended!) and gays and, er, young pregnant women (those benefit-scrounging sluts!), and as long as no-one can pick me up on it, then fine, argument over.

I did actually have a problem with part of that statement, but since he had already apologized for it and admitted he was out of line on that part, I did indeed let it go. As for the other part of it , filledeplage summed up my feelings at the top of this page.

Actually Andrew very specifically only apologized about mentioning gays, and that was it. If I said 'I hate the way the Polish and gays get all the jobs' and then later said, 'sorry if I offended any gays', would that be sufficient apology? To a Polish person I imagine it wouldn't. But hey ho... Can't be bothered arguing anymore. Like I said, as long as similar beneficial treatment to that which he complained about isn't happening on this board then fair enough. But if certain people are allowed to get away with certain behaviour and others aren't - well, that's just sh*t isn't it.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Again, I may have misread it, or read into it wrong (stated asuch previously)

[Mike's Beard]

 It's actually a myth that asylum seekers and such get more benefits in the UK, they actually get less. However they do have access to crisis type loans that residing UK benefit claimers rarely get to have.

It's no secret that single mothers get top priority with local Councils for accommodation. Which is why so many 17 year olds are getting knocked up.

Gay people don't receive any special treatment in regards to claiming Welfare in the UK.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Wow, what a charming personal message, ORR.

But, hey, what should I expect from someone who quotes themselves in their own signature?

And I'm the tool... 

Wow! You got one too? He must be PM'ing everybody in the Sandbox that doesn't agree with him. Kinda sad really.

Actually, not acting like a petulant child, having to act out publicly.

Also, following the Board Rules:

Treat everyone how you want to be treated. No name calling, belittling, or abusing other people. If you REALLY want to share your feelings with someone, please keep it in a private message.

Heated debates are welcome, but please keep to the point of the subject matter and don't ever get personal. That's all we ask to keep this place a fun and safe environment.

Consequences are simple, if one of the moderators feel that you are going out of line, they will ban you for the time necessary. If you have any problems please discuss them in a  private message to one of the moderators.

Thanks, and have fun!

I guess the Mods don't enforce their own rules anymore.

[SurfinTroll]

Someone will always be offended by something.  Personally, I feel this is an opportunity for a meaningful discussion on "racism/sexism/homophobia", etc.  Because, and this just may be my opinion, but EVERYONE has these biases lurking inside them.  This is true, sorry, but it is.  Everyone, no matter who they are, can be prone to thoughts and feelings regarding others that they may be successful in squashing, but which reside inside them nonetheless.  Is it better to hide these things?  Or to come out and admit it?  At least with outing ourselves around these issues we could then examine the real causes - but typically it just gives rise to one being vilified as a "bigoted nazi homophobic terrible monster" and others dressing themselves up in white robes of self righteous indignation, pretending to be free of any such personal flaws themselves.   Is AGD really terribly bigoted or homophobic?  Or is he just a normal person with some of this inside of him (as we all have) who had a moment of temper and stated some thing which may or may not have any truth, but perhaps sometimes appear as if they do.  He may "apologize" if he wishes, but that isn't going to really address the issue being talked about - those who are finger pointing are hypocrites, even though you may not even realize it.  

[smile-holland]

I guess the Mods don't enforce their own rules anymore.

You might be right, because if we do, by now you'd be banned. And you know I hate doing that. But seeing the number of complaints we're receiving these last 24 hours, I'm more worried about your status as a member than anyone else's right now.

I'm seriously asking you to log out, leave the board for a day, and cool/calm down a bit. And I'm not saying this to lit up the fire even more, but for your own good.

[Jim V.]

OK. I gotta weigh in here.

I think AGD's comments in regards to Muslims and gays are deplorable. But he did apologize about the gays. However, why is it that we are still allowing him to continue on this board while he willingly posts hate about a certain religion (on a topic he really doesn't understand...he might know The Beach Boys well, but I don't think he understands government policy very much, sounds like he buys into what the right-wing hate groups in his country tell him to think). But anyways Mods, will have be held to task for posting hate about one religion in particular? I hope he doesn't get banned, but I think posting things like that are in very poor taste and extremely hurtful and uniformed.

And while I do think ORR went a bit overboard in criticizing AGD's use of that Native American photo, I think a lot of people on here are jumping all over him here, because they wanna make him look foolish while making sure that we don't lose Andrew and all his knowledge.

[smile-holland]

Thanks sweetdudejim for chiming in.

As for me personally: I'm not happy with this situation at all. I don't think this was a case of just one or two persons being to blame (although some may think differently about it). No matter who we would have banned, it would have resulted in more negative responses. Which is why I asked for a cooling down. Not a perfect solution either, I know, but seeing the sudden emotions that started overtaking this topic, to me a more proper solution...

So if my previous post addressed to ORR gave you (or anyone else) the impression I was (solely) blaming him, my apologies, I certainly didn't want to make that impression. I just addressed to the guy that - imo - at that moment was getting the most direct responses, and seeing his replies was clearly not comfortable with that.

[bgas]

OK. I gotta weight in here.

I think AGD's comments in regards to Muslims and gays are deplorable. But he did apologize about the gays. However, why is it that we are still allowing him to continue on this board while he willingly posts hate about a certain religion (on a topic he really doesn't understand...he might know The Beach Boys well, but I don't think he understands government policy very much, sounds like he buys into what the right-wing hate groups in his country tell him to think). But anyways Mods, will have be held to task for posting hate about one religion in particular? I hope he doesn't get banned, but I think posting things like that are in very poor taste and extremely hurtful and uniformed.

And while I do think ORR went a bit overboard in criticizing AGD's use of that Native American photo, I think a lot of people on here are jumping all over him here, because they wanna make him look foolish while making sure that we don't lose Andrew and all his knowledge.

I think more people are jumping on ORR because he wouldn't let it go. And then kept going off on more tangents from there.  
I also don't think AGD is constantly spouting about any particular religion, but he did mention those damn muslims this time. Many people post about many things, now and then, tied to to what they're posting on the BBs and very few get called out for it.
I presume you're saying that anyone that posts once about something you find in poor taste should be beaten?  Then banned the next time?  Going to be a mighty small board...  Maybe the constant influx of new 10 year old fans who know everything about everything, will make up for it

[Disney Boy (1985)]

OK. I gotta weight in here.

I think AGD's comments in regards to Muslims and gays are deplorable. But he did apologize about the gays. However, why is it that we are still allowing him to continue on this board while he willingly posts hate about a certain religion (on a topic he really doesn't understand...he might know The Beach Boys well, but I don't think he understands government policy very much, sounds like he buys into what the right-wing hate groups in his country tell him to think). But anyways Mods, will have be held to task for posting hate about one religion in particular? I hope he doesn't get banned, but I think posting things like that are in very poor taste and extremely hurtful and uniformed.

And while I do think ORR went a bit overboard in criticizing AGD's use of that Native American photo, I think a lot of people on here are jumping all over him here, because they wanna make him look foolish while making sure that we don't lose Andrew and all his knowledge.

I think more people are jumping on ORR because he wouldn't let it go. And then kept going off on more tangents from there.  
I also don't think AGD is constantly spouting about any particular religion, but he did mention those damn muslims this time. Many people post about many things, now and then, tied to to what they're posting on the BBs and very few get called out for it.
I presume you're saying that anyone that posts once about something you find in poor taste should be beaten?  Then banned the next time?  Going to be a mighty small board...  Maybe the constant influx of new 10 year old fans who know everything about everything, will make up for it

Who ever said AGD was 'constantly' saying offensive things about religion, 'damn muslims' or otherwise? Once was enough.

I'm an atheist - as with 99% of the worlds scientists, I think all religion is basically nonsense - but that doesn't mean I approve of people using Muslims as scapegoats. Tell you what, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be a Muslim in Britain today with the amount of venom they have poured on them from certain sections of the press/public. I don't care what benefits were (supposedly) being offered...  

[Andrew G. Doe]

Them as don't want to know why I said what I said, stop reading. Now. There, you've been warned, so any consequent bitching is inadmissible.

OK, so... I was getting more than a little ticked at Gregg's constant harping on my being a bookie and trading on the misery of others (I gather there's a family history - know something ? NOT MY PROBLEM, I don't live or work in the US), so I decided to inform him why I took the job, viz I'd been out of work for 18 months on minimal benefits after having my previous workplace (a bakery, since you asked - now I guess I'm contributing to the world obesity crisis, oh and global warming too, of course) closed by the parent company at ten days notice, thus I wasn't, at age 56, going to turn down a job I could do, was local, challenging and reasonably well-paid. And indoors. Being in something of a high temper, I made reference to my being on minimal benefits because I wasn't part of a recognised minority, and without thinking included the gay community. That was entirely wrong on about nine levels, and I apologise unreservedly for that, especially to Clay. The muslim thing, no, because it's not that much of an exaggeration: when I was in the benefits office signing on, I jokingly said "if I'd come in here waving a copy of the Qu'uran, you'd be throwing money at me", and instead of laughing along, she bridled somewhat and said huffily "we have to look after our minorities" - except apparently my minority, the Roma, but no matter. True, the vast majority of UK muslims are decent, hard-working an law abiding folk, but as with any community (and that includes the English), there will be those who play the system. Why do so many immigrants and refugees wash up in the UK despite having to pass through at least three other EU nations where they could settle ? Because we're a soft touch, is why. What about the muslim communities who who willingly accept the benefits on offer then declare they only respect Sharia law, and sometimes rail against us ?  I'm English and hugely proud of my country, and increasingly it breaks my heart to see what's happening to this still green and pleasant land. Our colonial past has greatly enriched this nation in so many ways - try walking down Brick Lane on a Sunday if you want an experience to give all your senses a superb workout ! - but there are times when the tree-hugging PC brigade go way too far. I'm all for fairness for all, but if you live here, you play by the rules, be you Muslim, English, Mormon or Scientologist. FWIW I disagree with women getting preferential if treatment if they decide to try their hand a national politics. If they're good enough, they'll get elected. Filling artificial quotas is no way to run a country.

And... I'm drifting from the point. Gregg had strained my patience (admittedly in the course of making himself look pretty silly, if the other posts are any indication) and I made a bad choice. So, I'm human (bet that surprised you, but yes, I am), I make mistakes and bad calls. I like this place, a lot, and as with my country, it pains me to see people trying to be nothing but disruptive, be it derailing any given thread with badly phrased drivel or trying so very hard to find something negative in a perfectly innocuous interview (no need - as has very recently proven, there's enough regrettable stuff that doesn't require digging). This place has done some sterling research work, and has directly influenced some recent - and doubtless future - archive releases (you don't have to believe me on this, but it's true), and most of the folk here are good, good people. We all have this common cause, the most wonderful pop music ever crafted, which should bind us in, if not exactly brother(sister)hood, then a united vision. Doesn't look like that right now, does it, and yes, I regret my part in this: I've got a short fuse for idiots and I should walk away from posts patently designed to annoy me much more often than I have in the past. I'm a work in progress in this respect. Hopefully old dogs can be taught new tricks. This Beach Boys thing should be fun. It was once, and it's not going to be around forever. Asking for a group hug and general bygones being bygones ? Nah, because it's not going to happen: speaking personally, I know there are folk on this board who think about the same of me as I do of them, so no point expending energy there, but I'm with Smile Holland - reasonably peaceful co-existence should be possible. I'm willing to give it a go.

And... anyone know how to install an "ignore" function here ?  

[guitarfool2002]

And... anyone know how to install an "ignore" function here ?  

Well said.

Some points are worth ignoring, others are worth confronting. What someone experiences firsthand is just that, and expressing it should never be subject to the kind of scrutiny we've witnessed. I wasn't even going to comment, probably shouldn't, but this whole thread is much ado about nothing. It's an open forum, period. Barring direct personal attacks on an individual, why even raise the notion that someone's opinion or statement on what they witnessed firsthand should be "banned" if it contradicts what someone else feels on any issue? That's getting into speech codes, and I hate the notion even more than the practice itself. I hope it doesn't go there, ever.

What's the threshold for walking away, or pressing the hypothetical "ignore button"?

If you're enjoying a ham sandwich for lunch, and someone walks up to you saying "Why are you eating that turkey sandwich?", you might laugh it off and say "It's ham and swiss on rye, not turkey". If that person continues on the rant then tries to convince you that your ham sandwich is in fact a turkey sandwich, and you shouldn't be eating it for some reason or another, then you know you're dealing with an irrational if not idiotic person...and then it's time to walk away.

And keep in mind we're living in an era where education in some circles has been reduced to finding ways to make a wrong answer on a mathematics exam "right" if the student believes it's right. In other words, 2+2 equaling anything but 4 is not always a wrong answer.

That's a positive sign for the future, isn't it? 

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Them as don't want to know why I said what I said, stop reading. Now. There, you've been warned, so any consequent bitching is inadmissible.

OK, so... I was getting more than a little ticked at Gregg's constant harping on my being a bookie and trading on the misery of others (I gather there's a family history - know something ? NOT MY PROBLEM, I don't live or work in the US), so I decided to inform him why I took the job, viz I'd been out of work for 18 months on minimal benefits after having my previous workplace (a bakery, since you asked - now I guess I'm contributing to the world obesity crisis, oh and global warming too, of course) closed by the parent company at ten days notice, thus I wasn't, at age 56, going to turn down a job I could do, was local, challenging and reasonably well-paid. And indoors. Being in something of a high temper, I made reference to my being on minimal benefits because I wasn't part of a recognised minority, and without thinking included the gay community. That was entirely wrong on about nine levels, and I apologise unreservedly for that, especially to Clay. The muslim thing, no, because it's not that much of an exaggeration: when I was in the benefits office signing on, I jokingly said "if I'd come in here waving a copy of the Qu'uran, you'd be throwing money at me", and instead of laughing along, she bridled somewhat and said huffily "we have to look after our minorities" - except apparently my minority, the Roma, but no matter. True, the vast majority of UK muslims are decent, hard-working an law abiding folk, but as with any community (and that includes the English), there will be those who play the system. Why do so many immigrants and refugees wash up in the UK despite having to pass through at least three other EU nations where they could settle ? Because we're a soft touch, is why. What about the muslim communities who who willingly accept the benefits on offer then declare they only respect Sharia law, and sometimes rail against us ?  I'm English and hugely proud of my country, and increasingly it breaks my heart to see what's happening to this still green and pleasant land. Our colonial past has greatly enriched this nation in so many ways - try walking down Brick Lane on a Sunday if you want an experience to give all your senses a superb workout ! - but there are times when the tree-hugging PC brigade go way too far. I'm all for fairness for all, but if you live here, you play by the rules, be you Muslim, English, Mormon or Scientologist. FWIW I disagree with women getting preferential if treatment if they decide to try their hand a national politics. If they're good enough, they'll get elected. Filling artificial quotas is no way to run a country.

And... I'm drifting from the point. Gregg had strained my patience (admittedly in the course of making himself look pretty silly, if the other posts are any indication) and I made a bad choice. So, I'm human (bet that surprised you, but yes, I am), I make mistakes and bad calls. I like this place, a lot, and as with my country, it pains me to see people trying to be nothing but disruptive, be it derailing any given thread with badly phrased drivel or trying so very hard to find something negative in a perfectly innocuous interview (no need - as has very recently proven, there's enough regrettable stuff that doesn't require digging). This place has done some sterling research work, and has directly influenced some recent - and doubtless future - archive releases (you don't have to believe me on this, but it's true), and most of the folk here are good, good people. We all have this common cause, the most wonderful pop music ever crafted, which should bind us in, if not exactly brother(sister)hood, then a united vision. Doesn't look like that right now, does it, and yes, I regret my part in this: I've got a short fuse for idiots and I should walk away from posts patently designed to annoy me much more often than I have in the past. I'm a work in progress in this respect. Hopefully old dogs can be taught new tricks. This Beach Boys thing should be fun. It was once, and it's not going to be around forever. Asking for a group hug and general bygones being bygones ? Nah, because it's not going to happen: speaking personally, I know there are folk on this board who think about the same of me as I do of them, so no point expending energy there, but I'm with Smile Holland - reasonably peaceful co-existence should be possible. I'm willing to give it a go.

And... anyone know how to install an "ignore" function here ?  

All taken on board and appreciated, however I must say that my original post/thread wasn't 'patently designed to annoy you'. It was a direct response to being extremely annoyed by something you'd said. Guess I've got a short fuse too...

And yes, the Beach Boys music is beyond wonderful and they're the greatest band of all time and that's a scientific fact. Let's leave it there.

[Andrew G. Doe]

That's a positive sign for the future, isn't it?  

No... but this is:

+

 

[bgas]

That's a positive sign for the future, isn't it?  

No... but this is:

+

 

Why is the Red Cross a positive sign for the future AND laughable?

[Andrew G. Doe]

... and some fell on stony ground. 

[Wirestone]

There are important distinctions to be made here.

It is my impression that mods on this board are most interested in how posters treat one another, not necessarily what they believe. We have certainly had a lot of spirited political /cultural debate on the board, and discussions about minority groups haven't inevitably led to bannings.

Andrew's original post was not actually about gay people, or Muslims, or women. It was about a personal frustration with his local government. If his post had been on the order of "I hate gays / Muslims / women because ..." or "I think gays / Muslims / women are inferior because ..." I would feel far differently. But he never said or implied that these groups deserved ill treatment.

There have been other posters here who have specifically written messages about how they don't like gay people acting a certain way, or how women can't ever love the Beach Boys, and other such nonsense. I find those posts more distasteful than someone's perceptions of reverse bias. Andrew has never posted much on these subjects, or indeed shown much interest in them otherwise.

All that being said, I don't think the original post was one of Andrew's best, or especially wise. But I think Billy's attitude is the right one, and the reaction of some folks here to this entire discussion has been distasteful. Let's move along; there's less than nothing to be seen here.