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Author Topic: 14 Beach Boys albums coming to vinyl/SACD  (Read 211271 times)
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« Reply #250 on: December 14, 2014, 07:28:09 PM »

 

 There was one listing that specifically mentioned Artisan, but I don't think it was the one I bought, and now I can't find it anymore! Darn. There's also a DJ promo version being sold. Would that be a worthwhile purchase?

COMMENT:  There were several runs of Sunflower done over the years. After the Artisan versions came pressings from Capitol Pressing Plant (under Warner contract) being one generation down.  DJ promos are usually end runs or pressings near the limit of the stamper's life that may not be considered for sale. Not good enough for the public, but good enough for a sample to a DJ. The envelope or jacket will have a hole punched into the corner.

~swd

 


Not to say that I know better, but I question this line of reasoning. It seems strange  that WB/Rep would stamp as many pressings as were possible for the first run stamper, and place all of these in storage, while pulling the end of the run pressings so as to make the promos that would be sent out weeks, possibly months, prior to the actual release of the LP.

 And, for reference, the Sunflower/SU covers didn't have holes punched, but instead had DJ timing strips pasted onto the covers( usually the front) Capitol releases had many different ways of marking promos.
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« Reply #251 on: December 14, 2014, 07:38:48 PM »


COMMENT:  Good Move. When you get your LP, look within the lead-out grooves and see if the Artisan logo is visible. It's a circle with an "A" combined. If you see that logo, then you have an original pressing from the original mastering house. If you don't see the Artisan logo, then you have a pressing made sometime after the original offering, or a re-issued or second pressing, or third pressing. Should be the same as the original, just a generation down. 

Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

This is a fascinating discussion and I have enjoyed reading Stephen Desper's comments, insights, and opinions.

Perhaps I'm obsessive in regard to Sunflower, since I own 14 vinyl copies of the album (as well as a number of CDs).  Eight of those copies are on the US Brother/Reprise label, including the original i bought on August 21, 1970.  Five of my US copies were purchased new during the years 1970 - 1980, and three were purchased used in the eighties and nineties - a Capitol Record Club pressing and two Reprise Records Radio Station Service copies. 

In the past, having looked the matrix numbers in the lead out grooves, I'd seen the Artisan logo that Stephen describes, but never knew what it represented, so it's really cool to now have that knowledge.  Since there are discernible EQ differences found between many of my vinyl copies of Sunflower (and the CD copies as well), a few years ago I made notes detailing those differences. 

What is interesting, in checking my notes and comparing my listening conclusions to the Artisan mastered LPs, is that the LPs I had found to sound identical to my original 1970 album purchase were all mastered by Artisan, and with one exception those that sounded different do not have the Artisan logo.  To be specific, I have US copies of Sunflower purchased new in 1970, 74, and 78, as well as the two Reprise Radio Station promo copies from 1970 that were all mastered by Artisan and sound identical.  The Capitol Records Club version, which would have been pressed early on, in 1970 or 71, lacks the Artisan logo, but also sounds essentially similar to the original.  But two US copies I purchased new in 1978 and 1980 do not have the Artisan logo and sound significantly worse than the others, with noticeably less bass and overly boosted treble.  (My foreign copies of Sunflower, as well as the US 2009 Capitol LP, also have EQ differences compared to the original.  The US 2009 Capitol LP is unique in this respect in that not only is the overall EQ different from the original US release, but the EQ also varies between various songs in ways not found on the original release.)

 I'm curious as to the later copies;  do the ones that sound bad have 31,007/8 or 31,007/8 RE1 as the master # ?
and purely from the collector's view, are any of them on the Steamboat label? ( if so, are they RE1? or first run)

and I don't think 14 copies is even close to being obsessive from a collector's POV
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #252 on: December 14, 2014, 08:50:20 PM »

test
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 09:06:59 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #253 on: December 14, 2014, 08:59:47 PM »


 
COMMENT:  Good Move. When you get your LP, look within the lead-out grooves and see if the Artisan logo is visible. It's a circle with an "A" combined. If you see that logo, then you have an original pressing from the original mastering house. If you don't see the Artisan logo, then you have a pressing made sometime after the original offering, or a re-issued or second pressing, or third pressing. Should be the same as the original, just a generation down.  

Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper

This is a fascinating discussion and I have enjoyed reading Stephen Desper's comments, insights, and opinions.

Perhaps I'm obsessive in regard to Sunflower, since I own 14 vinyl copies of the album (as well as a number of CDs).  Eight of those copies are on the US Brother/Reprise label, including the original i bought on August 21, 1970.  Five of my US copies were purchased new during the years 1970 - 1980, and three were purchased used in the eighties and nineties - a Capitol Record Club pressing and two Reprise Records Radio Station Service copies.  

In the past, having looked the matrix numbers in the lead out grooves, I'd seen the Artisan logo that Stephen describes, but never knew what it represented, so it's really cool to now have that knowledge.  Since there are discernible EQ differences found between many of my vinyl copies of Sunflower (and the CD copies as well), a few years ago I made notes detailing those differences.  

What is interesting, in checking my notes and comparing my listening conclusions to the Artisan mastered LPs, is that the LPs I had found to sound identical to my original 1970 album purchase were all mastered by Artisan, and with one exception those that sounded different do not have the Artisan logo.  To be specific, I have US copies of Sunflower purchased new in 1970, 74, and 78, as well as the two Reprise Radio Station promo copies from 1970 that were all mastered by Artisan and sound identical.  The Capitol Records Club version, which would have been pressed early on, in 1970 or 71, lacks the Artisan logo, but also sounds essentially similar to the original.  But two US copies I purchased new in 1978 and 1980 do not have the Artisan logo and sound significantly worse than the others, with noticeably less bass and overly boosted treble.  (My foreign copies of Sunflower, as well as the US 2009 Capitol LP, also have EQ differences compared to the original.  The US 2009 Capitol LP is unique in this respect in that not only is the overall EQ different from the original US release, but the EQ also varies between various songs in ways not found on the original release.)

Stephen, would it be correct to assume that for some reason the mastering engineer for the poorer sounding Brother/Reprise copies I purchased in 1978 and 1980 was working from an LP master tape which was a copy of the mastering you and Carl did, but for some reason that engineer reduced the bass and boosted the treble when cutting a new LP lacquer?  Or could he have received a tape copy where someone had made those EQ changes?

COMMENT:  What a fascinating bouquet of Sunflower's you have in your collection. The sonic differences you hear may be do to over-active engineers, but is probably due to the use of different lathe manufactures. I liked Neumann. I thought they were more "Hi-Fi" sounding. Scully Lathes are brighter with less bottom. Ortofon lathes peak in the mids. Neumann seemed more balanced to me. If the record you play has the Artison logo within the leadout grooves, you can be assured that Carl and myself were involved in the mastering. The way it worked back then was that after the final album reel was assembled, it would be mastered. Carl and I had some last minute tweaks made at the time of mastering -- around fifty changes or so. A master disc was cut while at the same time an LP Master (or Mastering Master) tape was made. The final LP Master was mastered to sound correct if the master disc was cut on a Neumann Lathe using an SX-68 or SX-74 cutter head. From the master disk a mother was made, and so forth. Pressings from this first-pressing were approved by Carl and myself. Later pressings were approved by me until there were so many you could not keep track. However, I will assure you that any disc with the Artisan Logo was mastered by Carl and myself and is part of the batch pressed from the Neumann cut master.  Thanks again for the tour of your many Sunflower versions. I never know how many versions there were out there, but I can see how some would sound different from others. ~swd  
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 09:05:15 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #254 on: December 14, 2014, 11:46:30 PM »

"Please Let Me Wonder" sounds like a complete mono remix, to my ears.  When compared to other releases.

I wouldn't believe that when I read what you wrote, but now I finally found the time to check - and it definitely is as you say. On the original there is a mixing flub in the instrumental break they eliminated from the new version. I'm glad the 2009 LP still contains the original mix, from whatever tape they've sourced that from.



Thank you to Mr. Desper and Custom Machine for all that info regarding mastering in general and Sunflower versions! I have the 2009 LP, which to me better than the CD version as I said, but obviously I have no clue how it is supposed to sound! Custom Machine, what is your opinion on the job done with the 2009 print?
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« Reply #255 on: December 15, 2014, 07:19:05 AM »

Stephen thanks for all the information - this is definitely new info to me that the master tape and LP frequency response and dynamic range are similar and therefor no limitation or modification is necessary because of any limitation of the LP medium.  I had always thought bass response was "shaved" and high frequencies rounded off because of the limits of LP reproduction of sound.  Now I know better. 
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« Reply #256 on: December 15, 2014, 08:42:21 AM »

Stephen thanks for all the information - this is definitely new info to me that the master tape and LP frequency response and dynamic range are similar and therefor no limitation or modification is necessary because of any limitation of the LP medium.  I had always thought bass response was "shaved" and high frequencies rounded off because of the limits of LP reproduction of sound.  Now I know better.  

COMMENT:  Just to be clear, if spectral restrictions or dynamic limits are applied it is not because of medium limitations. As a general rule these limitations are applied to extend the marketplace for the product. If the playbacks were targeted for a strictly audiophile market, the modifications made to the Master Tape would be kept to a minimum or even none at all. But pop music is marketed to be heard by the average listener through distribution markets or  broadcast markets. If you want to expand a tape master to appeal to a more sophisticated listening crowd you might consider some extension of range, but that requires resetting balances and that gets into the music and so forth and so on. In contrast, if you wish to appeal to the MP3 listeners on their ipods and tablets you may want to limit dynamics and spectral content for them. We see that a lot today. It works both ways. I can't tell you the frequency range for Sunflower on a CD. I would expect it to be close to the LP which has frequencies from 32-24kHz as seen through an inspection microscope. Go to this link and look at the chart. You will find it interesting and it will give you a better sense of fidelity within each storage medium.

>>>  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0909/


  ~swd

PS COMMENT  Just got my issue of Stereophile Magazine (January 2015) and on page 22 Bob Katz (mastering engineer) has s feature article that speaks to the issues we have been discussing here.  ~

 
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« Reply #257 on: December 15, 2014, 11:35:26 PM »

Quote from: Micha link=topic=16766.msg488934#msg488934
Custom Machine, what is your opinion on the job done with the 2009 print?
Great question, Micha - I hope Custom or any others would like to chip in an opinion if they are able (no pressure).

I only have an old Stateside pressing and the '09 - the '09 soumds detailed and nuanced - I can hear a lot of vocal and musical intracacies I'd not noticed before.  However, while the bass tones and nice and deep, I feel the presentation is a bit trebly, similar to above comments re the CD.

The '09 pressing was also mastered by Ron McMaster who also remastered the current clutch of UMe Capitol reissues.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 03:00:34 AM by Alan Smith » Logged

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« Reply #258 on: December 16, 2014, 12:18:42 PM »

I guess this is the printing and packaging of the albums. (for tragic s only) LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FIyYBRTTj0
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« Reply #259 on: December 16, 2014, 12:35:22 PM »

I guess this is the printing and packaging of the albums. (for tragic s only) LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FIyYBRTTj0

great video.  been nice to match SUSA the song, with the LP tho
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« Reply #260 on: December 16, 2014, 05:46:10 PM »

Here's a little more info on the reissues:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/beach-boys-reissues-master-tapes-ready-ship
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« Reply #261 on: December 16, 2014, 05:57:02 PM »

Ooh, nice.
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« Reply #262 on: December 17, 2014, 12:03:27 AM »

Rather! A bit of an unexpected treat - I'm expecting Mr Fremmer to post a review(s) very soon.

Great vids, even if you are not interested in the new editions, but interested in the way this company produces it's product - the hands on approach was quite suprising and appreciated.  I can feel my credit card levitating slowly out of my wallet, each time I see those crystal clear and vaguely hypnotic newly pressed album covers.

The mastering info from Kevin Gray was invaluable - have a listen to his comments about "pre-echo" in vinyl tracks, caused by the lacquer degrading in a short amount of time.  While the UMe releases have been quite well done, some quality related artifacts have shown through (listen to the gap between Do It Again and I Can Hear Music); not indicative of the quality of the mastering, but potentially indicative of differences in the overall end to end quality control between the 2 projects (downstream issues catered for appropriately by A/P project).

Also notice A/S has pushed the shipping date for the first batch back 3 days to 19/12 or 12/19.
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« Reply #263 on: December 17, 2014, 01:55:25 AM »

I guess this is the printing and packaging of the albums. (for tragic s only) LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FIyYBRTTj0

I gotta have these. Great choice to use "Surf Jam", my 3rd favorite Surf instrumental of all time.

Why on earth is this YouTube video unplayable in Germany? Because of the music on it? Come on! Fortunately, there's means to view it anyway.
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« Reply #264 on: December 17, 2014, 02:10:52 AM »

Too bad they don't show the printed SUSA cover in the printing clip. On the ordering webpage http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/95563/The_Beach_Boys-Surfin_USA-200_Gram_Vinyl_Record they show the wrong version of the cover with only 10 songs mentioned, that's from a 70s 10-track reissue. The original had all 12 tracks mentioned. Just a minor detail though.
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« Reply #265 on: December 17, 2014, 02:29:53 AM »

I guess this is the printing and packaging of the albums. (for tragic s only) LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FIyYBRTTj0

Love it!  Grin
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« Reply #266 on: December 17, 2014, 08:12:52 AM »

The mastering info from Kevin Gray was invaluable - have a listen to his comments about "pre-echo" in vinyl tracks, caused by the lacquer degrading in a short amount of time.  

COMMENT:  You've got no more than 24 hours to plate the LP Master before pre-echo sets in. Really more like 18 hours tops. This is why LP's pressed in Japan or Europe are always one generation removed from the LP master tape. You can't send the matrix Master LP disc itself to one of these distant pressing plants. By the time it got there, it would be too late. The only answer is to send a copy of the tape or email a digital copy -- but then it's no longer analog. In earlier times, some mastering houses would send their master LPs in refrigerated containers to reduce groove-wall migration. 
Kevin also touched on the review signal. This idea was added to all lathes by Neumann back in the 50s. To explain, all record cutting lathes have two motors. One drives the platter (turntable) and the other drives the advance screw (the mechanism that moves the cutting head across the disc). Normally the advance screw is advanced at a steady speed. This speed is set to allow for an average audio signal to swing the cutting stylus so that it does not kiss (or touch) the groove that was just cut or the new one that will be cut on the next rotation. What the advance head does is to feed the advance screw motor with a signal that is in advance or in the future with respect to the audio signal. Thus if a series of soft signals is to be cut the advance screw knows in advance of the actual sound signal what to expect and can adjust the speed of the cutting head's advancement down. This make the grooves closer together, which is OK because the signal has a low level and the stylus swing is small. Putting the grooves closer together allows for more time or playback time to fit onto a given disc. In contrast, if a series of loud sounds is part of the song, then when those loud sounds are about to start, the advance screw turns faster, thus moving the cutting stylus further away from adjacent grooves so it can swing back and forth with a greater or wider swing without kissing an adjacent groove wall. Bass that is out-of-phase will produce a vertical motion of the stylus because the actual signal sent to the cutting head is reversed on one side, plus for minus. This is done so that the bulk of the signal, which is in-phase, will move the stylus left or right (lateral) and makes it compatible with mono records. Bass just on one side of the stereo panorama can cause the stylus to loose contact with the groove wall. This is overcome by the use of an "elliptical equalizer."  This device sums all bass starting below about 150 Hz. It's a gentle summation so the sloop of summing builds up as the frequency deepens. Usually it cannot be heard since deep bass is non-directional. Also of interest is that the head is cooled by flowing helium around the coils. This allows for a greater signal strength to be used to drive the stylus, or in other words, a greater signal strength results in the amplifier driving the cutter head to have more control over the stylus and thus more accurate fidelity. Neumann uses a 300 watt per channel amplifier to drive the little cutting head. Six hundred watts of power concentrated in such a small coil must have some way of dissipating the heat, so helium is used to remove the heat. The stylus itself has a little wire wrapped around it to heat the tip so that it cuts cleaner through the acetate material of the disc. And by the way, you can play a Master disc without harming it. Many times the Master is checked by playing parts of it. The Neumann lathe uses a Shure V15 cartridge for this as it is one of the most non-colored pickups you can use.

My shelves are littered with acetates I have cut while working for the Boys. I was constantly checking groove depth since the matrix produces more vertical movement than would normally be used. In all that testing, I figured out how to adjust the lathe to cut a disc that had 3 dB more level than the RIAA standard or enough extra room on a typical disc to contain one more song. But all this advance research was discarded by a Warner engineer (I write about it in my book) and frankly since then has been lost to the industry. The one exception is the disc by Michael Jackson History. When consulting on this production, I made certain that it would transfer to disc without problems by using the same techniques I had developed when with the Beach Boys.

One other thing you might find fascinating is the platter hold-down feature. You see the hose that is coming from the center spindle. That hose can be popped of the spindle to remove the disc. The spindle is hollow and connects to slots cut into the platter. While cutting that hose removes air from the slots on the platter that are in contact with the bottom of the acetate disc. The holes allow for the air to create a vacuum that holds the acetate disc in close contact to the platter. This makes the acetate disc very flat for an accurate groove depth throughout the entire disc surface. And of course, another vacuum moves the groove thread (what is cut from the disc material) away from the cutting styles were it is deposited into a fireproof container under the lathe.

I don't think much has changed in the disc cutting field since the 60's or 70's. It's as good now as it was back then.
~swd     
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« Reply #267 on: December 17, 2014, 12:38:33 PM »

My shelves are littered with acetates I have cut while working for the Boys. ~swd     

Happy to send you my address and pay shipping, if you need to clean all these acetates off your shelves! 
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« Reply #268 on: December 17, 2014, 10:14:01 PM »

This video makes me really hopeful for the sound of these reissues, but it also makes me sad that Wild Honey and Friends weren't included.
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« Reply #269 on: December 18, 2014, 11:10:21 AM »

I don't understand why they couldn't have done them all (at least the 60s albums) and put them into a lovely big box (similar to the Beatles Mono Box).  Then at least we'd have a coherent release as it might never happen again (I really need saving from buying all of these time and time again!).
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« Reply #270 on: December 18, 2014, 03:13:36 PM »

I don't understand why they couldn't have done them all (at least the 60s albums) and put them into a lovely big box (similar to the Beatles Mono Box).  Then at least we'd have a coherent release as it might never happen again (I really need saving from buying all of these time and time again!).

Exactly. I was thinking the same thing. They released the Beatles Mono and Stereo boxes (CD & vinyl) - why not give The Boys the same treatment? And it isn't right to leave out ANY of the albums in the Beach Boys 60's catalogue, especially Wild Honey and Friends and 20/20, all of which deserve release. I wonder why Capitol/BRI won't license the last three albums to Analogue??

After watching these videos, I can safely predict that these records will produce the best sound quality that we've ever heard. At 30 smackers apiece, they'd better be!! Might be time to upgrade to two dedicated mono blocks or tube amplifiers and turntable/cartridge/stylus to get the best possible analogue sound possible out of this virgin vinyl.
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« Reply #271 on: December 18, 2014, 04:49:08 PM »

Curious that there are two vinyl reissue programmes running concurrently, with Party! being the only LP to feature in both.

Then there are two SACD reissue programmes, one from AP and one from Capitol Japan. To be honest I haven't compared the line-ups there for similarities… Amazon UK has a few of some of these listed but the info is so spartan it's impossible to tell what you'd get for your money, which I guess means they're even more confused than I am… someone really clever needs to make a spreadsheet…
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« Reply #272 on: December 18, 2014, 05:28:55 PM »

John, it is all a bit of a mess.  Having so many releases at the same time leaves me scratching my head to be honest.
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« Reply #273 on: December 18, 2014, 06:31:22 PM »

  I figure Capitol owns the rights, so they license them to anyone that pays the $$; no reason to tell any potential licensees that others are releaseing the same material.
That would make for less profit
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« Reply #274 on: December 18, 2014, 07:21:36 PM »

Then there are two SACD reissue programmes, one from AP and one from Capitol Japan.

Well, let me re-think this. Maybe the SACD's will sound as good or better than the vinyl. If you can hear that nice warm analog sound on SACD, you won't need to spring for the vinyl. It's a matter of preference for dog-eared audiophiles, but there's a reason that vinyl is making a comeback in the past few years. On the other hand, hardware might be a consideration too - not all CD/Video players play SACD's, but buying one of those is cheaper than upgrading the stereo equipment to play the vinyl....
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