Why didn't Brian fire Mike?

[clack]

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

[CenturyDeprived]

Brian didn't fire Michael for one very simple reason - he was a founding member and was vital to the band's sound and live image. Brian is Michael's biggest fan, and vice versa. The two of them have a bond that none of us will ever understand. Blood runs thicker than water. I know that's tough for a certain radical pro-Brian faction on here to take but it's the truth.

There's an even simpler reason, and it's the same one which explains why Mike didn't fire anyone post-C50: he couldn't, without the support of his brothers. The band were formally incorporated on 3rd April 1964 as Beach Boys Entertainment Enterprises Inc., with Brian, Carl, Dennis & Mike as directors. As much as he may have wanted to (which was almost certainly - not), "you're out of the band, buckwheat !" was never a solo option.

I'm guessing that if Al had never left, he'd have probably been included in this '64 incorporation? I'm pretty sure I've read this somewhere, but just to double check - is the presumed reason that Al wasn't included on this incorporation based out of some sort of "punishment" for him leaving the group for a spell in '62? Or because Murry knew that Al would stick around to be part of a (now) famous group regardless of being left out of the incorporation, so why give him any extra bucks/power if they didn't have to? Or because he was not family? (Or all of the above)?

[Cyncie]

I think Brian needed the Beach Boys and the boys needed Brian. I think the family and friends support dynamic pushed Brian forward when it might not have been in his nature to take that kind of risk. Didn't Brian once say that Mike's admonishment that his "noodling" was better than what was on the radio is the reason he agreed to the band? Brian didn't fire Mike because Brian needed Mike. Not so much as a lyricist, but as a cousin. Brian could find others who were good with words, and sometimes did. But, Mike was family.  Maybe that's the real reason the Smile and Pet Sounds controversy was so painful for both.  For Mike, it wasn't  just about a composer using another lyricist, it was about family loyalty. And,  for Brian, it wasn't just that "Mike didn't like the words," but "My cousin isn't supporting me."

Conversely, I don't think any of the Boys would have been rock stars without Brian. None of them had  his grasp of songwriting, melody and harmony construction. Dennis and Carl developed their songwriting and producing skills from being in the studio with Brian and other musicians. Dave had his own band, but never quite broke into the mainstream.

It's easy to say the others would have been "pumping gas" without Brian. To an extent, that's true. I think Mike and Dennis would have been stuck in much less glamorous jobs. Al probably would have finished his degree. Brian would have also finished college and would be teaching music or psychology. And, we would have missed out on all that wonderful music.

This band happened because of the synergistic group dynamic between family and friends. Take anything away, and you just don't have The Beach Boys.

[Micha]

Brian would have been pumping gas at the station across the street from where Mike and Al and Carl and Dennis were pumping gas.

[Cam Mott]

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

We do because he tried numerous times and failed even with the advantage of the success of the BBs.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think Brian might well have drifted towards scoring movies and/or TV shows. He certainly had/has a very visual musical sensibility.

[Mike's Beard]

I honestly think that for every great musical legend that has ever come down the pike there has got to be at least one other person of equal talent that never caught even a tiny break. All the talent in the world won't get you anywhere if you don't have the right people to back you up and even then you have to be at the right place, at the right time with the right song. The odds that Brian Wilson would be just as famous today if he'd never have formed The Beach Boys are astronomical.

[DonnyL]

The Beach Boys have always been greater than the sum of their parts. I've watched some footage of the Brian, Al & Dave show and the Mike & Bruce show ... neither of them really do anything for me. Yet when you watch the 2012 reunion footage, it just TURNS ON ... I can't explain it. And I was skeptical they could pull something legit off, but they really did somehow.

Brian has never really done anything without the Beach Boys to come close to his work with the group in my opinion. And while I think the Beach Boys have come close to Brian's greatness without him ("I Can Hear Music") ... his energy and contribution seems to be present even in his absence. And of course, the real great stuff happens only with Brian's involvement.

I knew Sky Saxon from the Seeds for awhile before he passed away, and he hooked up with a young garage band (named Shapes Have Fangs) to act as The Seeds for some club gigs. On some occasions, they would play some dates where Shapes Have Fangs would open for The Seeds (basically, the same band opening for themselves + Sky Saxon). The band were good enough, but when they finished their set and Sky got on stage with them to start the Seeds set ... the whole thing transformed into something magic. I couldn't quite explain it. I learned something very valuable about musical charisma and chemistry there.

[Cam Mott]

Brian would have been pumping gas at the station across the street from where Mike and Al and Carl and Dennis were pumping gas.

It would have been a five corner intersection.

[guitarfool2002]

The Beach Boys have always been greater than the sum of their parts. I've watched some footage of the Brian, Al & Dave show and the Mike & Bruce show ... neither of them really do anything for me. Yet when you watch the 2012 reunion footage, it just TURNS ON ... I can't explain it. And I was skeptical they could pull something legit off, but they really did somehow.

Brian has never really done anything without the Beach Boys to come close to his work with the group in my opinion. And while I think the Beach Boys have come close to Brian's greatness without him ("I Can Hear Music") ... his energy and contribution seems to be present even in his absence. And of course, the real great stuff happens only with Brian's involvement.

I knew Sky Saxon from the Seeds for awhile before he passed away, and he hooked up with a young garage band (named Shapes Have Fangs) to act as The Seeds for some club gigs. On some occasions, they would play some dates where Shapes Have Fangs would open for The Seeds (basically, the same band opening for themselves + Sky Saxon). The band were good enough, but when they finished their set and Sky got on stage with them to start the Seeds set ... the whole thing transformed into something magic. I couldn't quite explain it. I learned something very valuable about musical charisma and chemistry there.

Spot on post! I've seen this firsthand too. You bring in a charismatic singer, guitarist, whatever the case...bring in a real pro in any capacity, and the band is elevated. It's not even playing over their heads, it's just a different dynamic and excitement that comes across.

To be honest, I also saw it on the Smile tour with Brian. Not just the Smile portion, but the first set as well. Not even the "encore" oldies final set matched any of that dynamic that came from the stage in the first and Smile sets. Yet other shows where I saw Brian with the same band didn't match that level.

I think the setlist choices may also be a factor. But no doubt you know it when you feel it happening at a live show, either playing or watching.

[clack]

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

We do because he tried numerous times and failed even with the advantage of the success of the BBs.

'Surf City' went to #1.

[clack]

I honestly think that for every great musical legend that has ever come down the pike there has got to be at least one other person of equal talent that never caught even a tiny break. All the talent in the world won't get you anywhere if you don't have the right people to back you up and even then you have to be at the right place, at the right time with the right song. The odds that Brian Wilson would be just as famous today if he'd never have formed The Beach Boys are astronomical.

Think of all the Lennons who never met their McCartneys, or the Jaggers their Richards...

[Cam Mott]

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

We do because he tried numerous times and failed even with the advantage of the success of the BBs.

'Surf City' went to #1.

Someone else produced that hit with another group.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think Brian needed the Beach Boys and the boys needed Brian. I think the family and friends support dynamic pushed Brian forward when it might not have been in his nature to take that kind of risk. Didn't Brian once say that Mike's admonishment that his "noodling" was better than what was on the radio is the reason he agreed to the band? Brian didn't fire Mike because Brian needed Mike. Not so much as a lyricist, but as a cousin. Brian could find others who were good with words, and sometimes did. But, Mike was family.  Maybe that's the real reason the Smile and Pet Sounds controversy was so painful for both.  For Mike, it wasn't  just about a composer using another lyricist, it was about family loyalty. And,  for Brian, it wasn't just that "Mike didn't like the words," but "My cousin isn't supporting me."

Conversely, I don't think any of the Boys would have been rock stars without Brian. None of them had  his grasp of songwriting, melody and harmony construction. Dennis and Carl developed their songwriting and producing skills from being in the studio with Brian and other musicians. Dave had his own band, but never quite broke into the mainstream.

It's easy to say the others would have been "pumping gas" without Brian. To an extent, that's true. I think Mike and Dennis would have been stuck in much less glamorous jobs. Al probably would have finished his degree. Brian would have also finished college and would be teaching music or psychology. And, we would have missed out on all that wonderful music.

This band happened because of the synergistic group dynamic between family and friends. Take anything away, and you just don't have The Beach Boys.

Brian teaching psychology??

[clack]

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

We do because he tried numerous times and failed even with the advantage of the success of the BBs.
'Surf City' went to #1.

Wasn't that what we were discussing? Whether Brian could have been successful without the Beach Boys? Well, he did have success -- granted, as a songwriter, not a producer.
Someone else produced that hit with another group.

[feelsflow]

Brian didn't fire Michael for one very simple reason - he was a founding member and was vital to the band's sound and live image. Brian is Michael's biggest fan, and vice versa. The two of them have a bond that none of us will ever understand. Blood runs thicker than water. I know that's tough for a certain radical pro-Brian faction on here to take but it's the truth.

There's an even simpler reason, and it's the same one which explains why Mike didn't fire anyone post-C50: he couldn't, without the support of his brothers. The band were formally incorporated on 3rd April 1964 as Beach Boys Entertainment Enterprises Inc., with Brian, Carl, Dennis & Mike as directors. As much as he may have wanted to (which was almost certainly - not), "you're out of the band, buckwheat !" was never a solo option.

The Real Beach Boy is spot on.  I've always been pro-Wilsons, but Brian loves Mike.  Brian's the one who has come and gone through the years.  He owed it to the band to share those late 80's tracks. That record would have been better too.  He's the one who wanted to leave the road.  And isn't Jason right about there being a very similar thread around here?  Just set in 1966...  Mike not a part of the band?  They wouldn't have made it past 1965.  Bands back then, had to tour.  Nobody else could have fronted this band, get real.  Even if Brian changed his mind and came back out to tour, Dennis and Carl were not yet ready.  And I still want Mike there.  Mike was cool in the early 70's too, even after 1974.  They did plenty of new tracks/deep cuts into the 80's.  How many oldsters are posting on this thread.  They would know it was not just surf-n-car shows, Carl and Al saw to that, and Mike did new stuff.  Carl left briefly in a beef over not practicing.  Know what, he couldn't get Brian and Dennis to either.  He got back quick.  And I don't think that was a money deal, he liked playing with Mike.  And please stop saying Mike was not an important part of the vocal mix on the records.  Mike and Brian's co-leads on so many of the mid-sixties tracks made them what they are.  Take out that element?  I think too many here are getting puffed up about the Mike/HuffPost thread, calm down little birdies.  Mike was and is like a brother to Brian.  It's the "handlers" that are telling Brian not to talk up more reunion shows.  Donny L  is right, like the Beatles, greater than the sum of their parts.  And you do realize there would be no Wild Honey or Sunflower without Mike.  Also added AGD's post 'cause I think it's neat that they signed those papers on my 12th birthday.  Okay, okay... I'm using up too many of my thoughts, I've been saving up for the "I like Mike" thread, and kids are at the door...Happy Halloween everybody!

[Cyncie]

I think Brian needed the Beach Boys and the boys needed Brian. I think the family and friends support dynamic pushed Brian forward when it might not have been in his nature to take that kind of risk. Didn't Brian once say that Mike's admonishment that his "noodling" was better than what was on the radio is the reason he agreed to the band? Brian didn't fire Mike because Brian needed Mike. Not so much as a lyricist, but as a cousin. Brian could find others who were good with words, and sometimes did. But, Mike was family.  Maybe that's the real reason the Smile and Pet Sounds controversy was so painful for both.  For Mike, it wasn't  just about a composer using another lyricist, it was about family loyalty. And,  for Brian, it wasn't just that "Mike didn't like the words," but "My cousin isn't supporting me."

Conversely, I don't think any of the Boys would have been rock stars without Brian. None of them had  his grasp of songwriting, melody and harmony construction. Dennis and Carl developed their songwriting and producing skills from being in the studio with Brian and other musicians. Dave had his own band, but never quite broke into the mainstream.

It's easy to say the others would have been "pumping gas" without Brian. To an extent, that's true. I think Mike and Dennis would have been stuck in much less glamorous jobs. Al probably would have finished his degree. Brian would have also finished college and would be teaching music or psychology. And, we would have missed out on all that wonderful music.

This band happened because of the synergistic group dynamic between family and friends. Take anything away, and you just don't have The Beach Boys.

Brian teaching psychology??

Yeah. The irony. From Wikipedia:

Wilson enrolled at El Camino College in Los Angeles, majoring in psychology, in September 1960.

[Micha]

It's the "handlers" that are telling Brian not to talk up more reunion shows.

How do you know that?

[Andrew G. Doe]

And please stop saying Mike was not an important part of the vocal mix on the records.  Mike and Brian's co-leads on so many of the mid-sixties tracks made them what they are.  

Exactly. Listen to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTsL_ImgWn0 - and then tell me Mike isn't a vital part of the vocal mix.

[Mike's Beard]

And please stop saying Mike was not an important part of the vocal mix on the records.  Mike and Brian's co-leads on so many of the mid-sixties tracks made them what they are.  

Exactly. Listen to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTsL_ImgWn0 - and then tell me Mike isn't a vital part of the vocal mix.

Well that's just 2:45 mins of perfection right there.

[Heysaboda]

If what I read on this board is true, and Mike Love is Evil Incarnate, a money grubbing bastard that never cared about the music, why didn't Brian fire him back in 1966?

Brian's a lover, not a fighter..........

 

[18thofMay]

As AGD pointed out never forget the music!

[feelsflow]

It's the "handlers" that are telling Brian not to talk up more reunion shows.

How do you know that?

I meant lawyers.  It's the take I have after reading interviews during the recent tour.

If you haven't, read the Brian/Beck fall tour thread.

The whole point of my post though, was about Mike.  More positive things need to be said.  Brian and Mike will decide what to do next between themselves.

[Micha]

If you haven't, read the Brian/Beck fall tour thread.

Too long! I'm satisfied with this information you gave me.

[Cam Mott]

Who knows whether Brian would have made it without the Beach Boys?

I think that he would have had a chance to be a sunshine pop cult figure, like Gary Zekley, Steve Barri or Curt Boettcher. But would sunshine pop even exist without the example of the Beach Boys?

We do because he tried numerous times and failed even with the advantage of the success of the BBs.
'Surf City' went to #1.

Wasn't that what we were discussing? Whether Brian could have been successful without the Beach Boys? Well, he did have success -- granted, as a songwriter, not a producer.
Someone else produced that hit with another group.

OK, fair enough. Maybe he could have been a successful co-author if he had ever gotten an opportunity without being a BB, he was not a successful producer outside of the BBs in spite of several opportunities while being a BB.