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Author Topic: Landlocked - soniclovenoize reconstruction  (Read 14131 times)
runnersdialzero
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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2013, 06:51:45 AM »

Reconstructing something close to a Celebration Of The Lizard LP would be as easy as assembling a playlist of the right songs from the Waiting For The Sun album and the "Celebration Of The Lizard" song, wouldn't it? Not much work to be done there. I don't know everything there is to know about this, though, but that's the impression I get.

Elliott's From A Basement On The Hill album, the original double LP version, could only really be done accurately by someone who has access to his notes or probably Jennifer Chiba, his girlfriend at the time of his passing. I really hope his notes were consulted for the 2004 single disc version in terms of the tracklist, but I somehow get the feeling they weren't most of the time. Also, the rough mixes of "King's Crossing" and "Coast To Coast", while probably incomplete, kind of showed me the trip Elliott was on, the one I knew he was on but that isn't especially well-represented on the 2004 disc. It's nice, I'm thankful his family saw to it that his music got out despite what they were going through at the time, but I'm really hoping a 2 disc set is released some day. The guy's unreleased catalog is massive, most of what's gotten out is very much worth hearing. Just yesterday, a really cool Heatmiser take of "Christian Brothers" surfaced.

sonic, indeed, most of leaked material from this era is in lossy formats. I hate to say someone ages ago sent me a few unreleased tracks from this era in lossless, but I've since lost them. Shame the people who own his post-1998 recordings just fucking won't put any of it out in the foreseeable future because they don't see any big financial gain to be made from it. The stuff that did get put out and the stuff that didn't get put out are on the exact same quality level, I understand they did the best they could given some kind of contractual limitations set by Dreamworks (i.e. they could only put out one disc), but this stuff deserved to be released alongside the rest where it belongs.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 06:55:51 AM by runnersdialzero » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2013, 07:56:32 AM »

Decloaking at last...in addition to Adult/Child, I'd like to make the following requests:
From A Basement on a Hill - Elliott Smith (the proposed double-LP version)
Celebration of the Lizard - The Doors (and if you have trouble getting sources on this, there's a guy named Ray in Texas who may be able to help...)
Look Back - The Beatles -this was supposed to be a volume of oldies covers culled from the Get Back sessions. Somebody seriously needs to do some heavy-duty editorial work and save anything good from the Nagras on this. Diamonds are there in the rough, but need cutting and polishing...
Surf's Up - BBs. This one would be tougher, since we don't seem to have any version of "Burlesque" anywhere.

Love your stuff. So entertaining and well-done. Somebody needs to give you a job doing this.



I've worked on some the A/B Road material. Here is an edit I've done of three originals:

https://soundcloud.com/natural-e-tunes
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2013, 11:23:48 AM »

Reconstructing something close to a Celebration Of The Lizard LP would be as easy as assembling a playlist of the right songs from the Waiting For The Sun album and the "Celebration Of The Lizard" song, wouldn't it? Not much work to be done there. I don't know everything there is to know about this, though, but that's the impression I get.
Funny thing, I spent this morning researching it, and you are pretty much correct, it is a matter of re-juggling the songs!

But I just finished my own edit of "Celebration" that combines a few different sources so it isn't simply the lack-luster demo run-though from the Waiting For The Sun 40th remaster.  I like the results, I guess I'll actually do this one, coming up in a few weeks I suppose. 

Quote
sonic, indeed, most of leaked material from this era is in lossy formats. I hate to say someone ages ago sent me a few unreleased tracks from this era in lossless, but I've since lost them. Shame the people who own his post-1998 recordings just fucking won't put any of it out in the foreseeable future because they don't see any big financial gain to be made from it. The stuff that did get put out and the stuff that didn't get put out are on the exact same quality level, I understand they did the best they could given some kind of contractual limitations set by Dreamworks (i.e. they could only put out one disc), but this stuff deserved to be released alongside the rest where it belongs.

Yeah, it's a total bummer.  Someone from another board made a Basement mix that was good, but yeah, half of it was lossy sourced.  With all this new Smith outtakes coming out, it's so weird that one of these final sessions have come out...  Sad

What I had read was that his inspiration for the project was The White Album, so my idea was to reconstruct Basement as using The White Album as a literal blueprint...  As in, what would be the "Back in the USSR" equivalent?  Coast To Coast...  What would the "Dear Prudence" equivalent be?  Pretty Ugly Before...  Some of it it pretty easy (Twilight = Julia, Honey Pie = Memory Lane) but we simply don't have enough finished songs for all 30, and what would Revolution 9 be? 

Well, that's my idea anyways. 
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ontor pertawst
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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2013, 11:32:46 AM »

Ray Shackleford's sources are definitely lossless.

http://www.lewisshiner.com/liberation/glimpses.pdf
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2013, 11:34:25 AM »

Ray Shackleford's sources are definitely lossless.

http://www.lewisshiner.com/liberation/glimpses.pdf
Hey!  I was looking for that this morning, thinking Glimpses had some good primary sources about how the album would have been...

Then I found out what the book was about.  Razz
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2013, 11:58:07 AM »

"Revolution #9"? How about the mix of "O So Slow" with all the sound effects? %_%

Maybe. But yeah, I'm sure a decent fan mix could be made and I like your approach, but still, I'm really hoping some day, someone strikes up the right deal and the right people are involved to really dig through Elliott's notes and get a two disc version out.
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« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2013, 07:58:38 AM »

i'm loving this discussion, though I feel a little guilty that I've highjacked the thread into being a soniclovenoise topic--perhaps we should continue this in a newer thread in Gen MX Discussion? Just thinking out loud here. Not a complaint, just an attempt to be "correct"...

Celebration/Lizard - I was indeed thinking of Ray's initial "research" sources in "Glimpses"--I'm no Doors expert, so I was just taking it all at the author's word. And I couldn't find a fan-made version anywhere--maybe I wasn't looking in the right places. But I thought this idea of doing it yourself might strike a chord with you.

Basement--the guy that did most of the recording--David McConnell, the artist?--claims to have 3 years' worth of notes on how it was supposed to go. After a quick reread of a couple of things, the only thing I noted from it was that Shooting Star was the opener, and not position 12. Maybe you could email the guy who assembled Grand Mal and see if he has lossless stuff.

Surf's Up - I adore your Landlocked, but it feels totally different than the moody/adult/poetic Surf's Up I think of. Landlocked--your version--feels like a miraculous new lost BBs album, not an alt-SU. Hence my suggestion.

And I just thought of a couple more, though I don't know how possible they are:
Neil Young - Homegrown. Yeah, I know the real thing is gonna be on the next Archive, but who knows when that's coming out? And wouldn't it be fun to see how close you come to the final product?

Neil Young - Tonight's the Night, original version. I don't know what the chances are of any of the original mixes being out there--the ones with the long weird improvised raps--but there's a whole tour's worth of live versions--maybe those might be close enough? And there's also that acetate version floating around, though it's not "the" original intended version.

More about "Look Back": I agree the pickin's might be slim. But who knows--I still haven't listened to all 80 hours of AB  Road yet...there may yet be some surprises. My suggestions:
-Third Man Theme - complete, pretty well played
-Blue Suede Shoes - this got wedged into a medley on Anthology, but it's an Apple take, pretty well played, just could use a little editing and touch-up
-The Walk - it's longer on AB Road--maybe an edit could yield a finished song?
-Ummm...that's all I can think of for oldies. You may be right: not enough worth saving along those lines.
Maybe just a nice single-album compilation of whatever good, oldies or not, might be more viable. Actually, PM me and let's discuss further, as I've already started work on a thing or two.

That's enough for now, I'm sure.
-onkster
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2013, 08:13:59 AM »

Yeah,I've spent sometime researching Celebration of The Lizard, and was surprised myself that no one has done it.  And you are not the only one to suggest it, like three other people also did over the last year or so. 

It's pretty simple really:
1. Drop Hello I Love You and Summer's Already Gone
2. Add Celebration of The Lizard
3. Re-order tracks

And you're done!  Smiley  I've read that people seem to think "Gloria" would have been on there, but who knows (and there's no recordings anyways, right?).  Anyways, I have this done, was listening to it all last night and I think it sounds good.  I will upload it sometime. 

No I agree about Surf's Up vs Landlocked, I was making a joke. But the reason I chose to do Landlocked over others like Reverberation or Add Some Music is because it was the most far-removed from what actually came out.    So I probably won't do an alternate Surf's Up, but if I did, it would probably be all the druggy Wilson-driven tracks, dropping all the commercial Mike/Al-driven tracks. 

Neil Young, I am looking into that currently.  I have to assess if the source-material is even available for a reconstruction that sounds good (case in point, the 3rd CSNY album--no decent sounding source tapes). 

The Beatles one, I am still skeptical.  Sorry...
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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2013, 08:17:24 AM »

Neil Young - Homegrown. Yeah, I know the real thing is gonna be on the next Archive, but who knows when that's coming out? And wouldn't it be fun to see how close you come to the final product?

That would be impossible because a lot of the tracks that are supposed to go on the album have never surfaced.
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2013, 10:06:23 AM »

Basement--the guy that did most of the recording--David McConnell, the artist?--claims to have 3 years' worth of notes on how it was supposed to go. After a quick reread of a couple of things, the only thing I noted from it was that Shooting Star was the opener, and not position 12. Maybe you could email the guy who assembled Grand Mal and see if he has lossless stuff.

McConnell wasn't around for the last year of Elliott working on the album at all, thus I don't know how reliable he'd be in terms of what Elliott wanted in October of 2003 as the album had come to include more songs and newer recordings. I know Elliott's family kind of snubbed him (according to him, anyway) in terms of not consulting with him at all on the final album and kind of treating him poorly. That's his side of the story, though.

I think "Shooting Star" being the original opener is kind of a somewhat unfounded myth that came to be accepted as reality by a lot of people without there ever being concrete evidence. The only evidence to that, I believe, is Elliott playing several Basement tracks for an interviewer in 2003 and the first thing played happened to be "Shooting Star". Among these was "True Love", which Elliott stated he wasn't even sure would make the album, thus I don't think what was played for the interviewer was meant to show an album tracklist or anything. "Shooting Star", to me, is not an opening track at all. "Coast To Coast", on the other hand, is one of the best album openers I've ever heard. Just me, I guess.

The guy who assembled Grand Mal doesn't have access to lossless stuff anymore than the rest of us, I believe. I know on older editions of it, he generally worked exclusively in MP3, edited, and then re-encoded to MP3, which is transcoding. No idea if he's since changed his approach, but he didn't seem to care about losing quality when I (probably rudely I'll admit, those were bad times) told him he was losing quality and making original quality files harder to find by doing this.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 10:18:25 AM by runnersdialzero » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2013, 11:03:13 PM »

A few points:

1) I love the extra long "'Til i Die" that was on Pegboy. I used to play that over and over some 15 years ago.

2) I really enjoy your Lifehouse. It's one that rides in my car.

3) The intro to "Life Is For The Living" is really bad sounding on all available copies. The source material for this must have been an old cassette. I have heard an edit that loops part of the song at the beginning and although it is obviously a Frankenstein it comes off sounding smoother.

Love your blog. How about an alt Bambu?
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2013, 04:56:08 AM »

3) The intro to "Life Is For The Living" is really bad sounding on all available copies. The source material for this must have been an old cassette. I have heard an edit that loops part of the song at the beginning and although it is obviously a Frankenstein it comes off sounding smoother.

Disagree, I hate the fan edit versions. Not sure what the thought process was behind them, but they're everywhere now and have really dirtied the pool.

I still feel "Life Is For The Living" might be my biggest "How the f*** was this not included on MIC?" track. They've found the reels now, so yeah. Cry
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2013, 05:47:57 AM »

3) The intro to "Life Is For The Living" is really bad sounding on all available copies. The source material for this must have been an old cassette. I have heard an edit that loops part of the song at the beginning and although it is obviously a Frankenstein it comes off sounding smoother.

Disagree, I hate the fan edit versions. Not sure what the thought process was behind them, but they're everywhere now and have really dirtied the pool.

I still feel "Life Is For The Living" might be my biggest "How the f*** was this not included on MIC?" track. They've found the reels now, so yeah. Cry

Just a guess--did member(s) of the band not want to include the line "Don't sit around on your ass, smokin' grass" because of the word "ass" and direct reference to drugs (theoretically opposed to their use, but somewhat ambiguous considering the amount of drugs that were clearly used in making this song and Adult/Child in general).  If the band was trying to present itself as family friendly it could have been omitted for that purpose.  But I agree; it's a great track.
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2013, 07:10:44 AM »

3) The intro to "Life Is For The Living" is really bad sounding on all available copies. The source material for this must have been an old cassette. I have heard an edit that loops part of the song at the beginning and although it is obviously a Frankenstein it comes off sounding smoother.

Disagree, I hate the fan edit versions. Not sure what the thought process was behind them, but they're everywhere now and have really dirtied the pool.

I still feel "Life Is For The Living" might be my biggest "How the f*** was this not included on MIC?" track. They've found the reels now, so yeah. Cry

Just a guess--did member(s) of the band not want to include the line "Don't sit around on your ass, smokin' grass" because of the word "ass" and direct reference to drugs (theoretically opposed to their use, but somewhat ambiguous considering the amount of drugs that were clearly used in making this song and Adult/Child in general).  If the band was trying to present itself as family friendly it could have been omitted for that purpose.  But I agree; it's a great track.

Not sure. It is a little left of center for the guys, too. Still, they included the "hash joints" comment on the Smile box a couple years ago - they've come a long way. I doubt they're about to release that lost "Bitches Ain't sh*t" cover they did with Don Was, but I think they're well aware their image isn't as squeaky clean as it used to be while still trying to keep it decent. I think one "ass" per box set would probably be allowed, I'm still just really surprised by how much the Adult/Child material got shafted for MIC.
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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2013, 09:11:43 AM »

Many, many thanks for this - and for the other albums on your blog. I downloaded your SMiLE reconstructions a couple of years ago and never realized how extensive your catalogue of work had grown in the meantime.

Apologies if you've already answered this but your blog notes say that this is the third of four Beach Boys uploads. What is the fourth going to be? Adult/Child or some solo BB collection?

Keep up the good work!
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« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2013, 12:35:44 PM »

What can you do with Carry Me Home?
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Mayoman
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« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2013, 01:45:14 PM »

Those saying that "Big Sur" runs slow, how much should it be sped-up?
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« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2013, 02:49:11 PM »

Those saying that "Big Sur" runs slow, how much should it be sped-up?

I don't think it's slow. If it's slow, it should only be sped up by a nat's ass.  The real problem with it is that it pans back and forth between channels. The original doesn't do that.

Steve Mayo, is that you?
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« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2013, 03:33:22 PM »

Somebody in the thread earlier posted it was runing slow. I personally didn't hear it.

And no, I'm not Steve Mayo, just some random Beach Boys fan.  Grin
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rogerlancelot
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« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2013, 05:03:30 PM »

3) The intro to "Life Is For The Living" is really bad sounding on all available copies. The source material for this must have been an old cassette. I have heard an edit that loops part of the song at the beginning and although it is obviously a Frankenstein it comes off sounding smoother.

Disagree, I hate the fan edit versions. Not sure what the thought process was behind them, but they're everywhere now and have really dirtied the pool.

I still feel "Life Is For The Living" might be my biggest "How the f*** was this not included on MIC?" track. They've found the reels now, so yeah. Cry

I think the thought process was to cover up the bad sounding intro. There is also the instrumental mix on All This Is That but unfortunately the vocal version begins with a vocal ("liiiiife"). Not much can be done with it but I do appreciate your artistic integrity in preserving it the way it was without adding the intro.

Also I think that "Everybody Wants To Live" is my favorite of the unreleased Adult Child songs but also has a bad sounding Carl vocal like "It's Over Now" did. Maybe it can be fixed as well? It's not a very complicated song but it is catchy and Gabro likes it. Isn't that Dennis on background vocals or am I just hearing things?
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« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2013, 10:05:50 PM »

One more request--not an album, just a track:
CAN'T WAIT TOO LONG.

The megamix!
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« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2013, 10:10:08 PM »

One more request--not an album, just a track:
CAN'T WAIT TOO LONG.

The megamix!

I second that!

I would love to know how the sections from various sources relate to each other with regard to pitch...I've tried putting pieces together but can never get them in pitch with each other.
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« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2013, 11:58:40 PM »

Those saying that "Big Sur" runs slow, how much should it be sped-up?

I don't think it's slow. If it's slow, it should only be sped up by a nat's ass.

If I directly compare this version to the versions I have the difference is evident. This version runs 2:40, the ones I have 2:37. They sound like they're apart even more, but apparently they're not. I checked some of the other tracks (not all), the others seem to run the same speed as the versions I have.
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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2013, 12:16:46 AM »

Also I think that "Everybody Wants To Live" is my favorite of the unreleased Adult Child songs but also has a bad sounding Carl vocal like "It's Over Now" did. Maybe it can be fixed as well?

Doubt it - that's down to Carl being smacked up, not incorrect tape speed/pitch.
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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2013, 06:50:11 AM »

Those saying that "Big Sur" runs slow, how much should it be sped-up?

I don't think it's slow. If it's slow, it should only be sped up by a nat's ass.

If I directly compare this version to the versions I have the difference is evident. This version runs 2:40, the ones I have 2:37. They sound like they're apart even more, but apparently they're not. I checked some of the other tracks (not all), the others seem to run the same speed as the versions I have.

Is the difference just three seconds of track leader time (silence between tracks)?

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