-->
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 01:51:00 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
News: Carnival Of Sound
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  The Smiley Smile Message Board
|-+  Non Smiley Smile Stuff
| |-+  The Sandbox
| | |-+  Health Care
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Health Care  (Read 131394 times)
0 Members and 46 Guests are viewing this topic.
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #275 on: November 08, 2013, 02:12:34 PM »

And what I'd argue it always should come down to. The difference with the health care situation today is that people will see close to the exact dollar amount they're being asked to pitch in involuntarily, rather than have it be a nameless few-dollar tax or surcharge which they pay regularly on everything from phone bills to a gallon of gas and don't really pay attention.

If you set up a situation where instead of a dollar more to cover a social program, people will see several hundred dollars more on their monthly health care bill, it won't be good. Especially if the people seeing the increases are already struggling to pay their own bills. And people will not only react but respond with action. And the nature of the ideology itself behind the law will be questioned.

The fact that lies and distortions campaigned for and sold this law only makes it worse. And if anyone questions the increases or changes being reported, you have me as a direct reference and example of how it affects people, with exact amounts.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #276 on: November 08, 2013, 02:17:50 PM »

And what I'd argue it always should come down to. The difference with the health care situation today is that people will see close to the exact dollar amount they're being asked to pitch in involuntarily, rather than have it be a nameless few-dollar tax or surcharge which they pay regularly on everything from phone bills to a gallon of gas and don't really pay attention.

If you set up a situation where instead of a dollar more to cover a social program, people will see several hundred dollars more on their monthly health care bill, it won't be good. Especially if the people seeing the increases are already struggling to pay their own bills. And people will not only react but respond with action. And the nature of the ideology itself behind the law will be questioned.

The fact that lies and distortions campaigned for and sold this law only makes it worse. And if anyone questions the increases or changes being reported, you have me as a direct reference and example of how it affects people, with exact amounts.

Well, put and Bean Bag's relentless pointing out of the lies (and he is correct) aside, we all get that and have long gotten it ....... So, what sort of a system do we strive for, advocate??
Logged
Rocky Raccoon
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2393



View Profile
« Reply #277 on: November 09, 2013, 10:20:45 PM »

We need a single-payer system, it's that simple.
Logged

Bean Bag
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177


Right?


View Profile
« Reply #278 on: November 11, 2013, 12:56:14 PM »

I think food and water is more important than healthcare, Rocky.  What system do you propose for that?
Logged

409.
Bean Bag
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177


Right?


View Profile
« Reply #279 on: November 11, 2013, 01:21:24 PM »

Once again, your entire approach seems to be 99% self-image based.... And when did I say ObamaCare doesn't go far enough? I said it was hideous and I mean it..... My point is, don't divide and conquer to the point where you're knocking off folks who share your essential belief about what it is you're on the ramage about just because they don't despise it with quite the same jackhammer intensity like you..... I respect your opinions, Bean, I really do.

You are obviously blessed with high intelligence AND a sense of humor. It's just that we all know where you stand and there comes a point where you have to ask "OK, but what are we going to do about it"Huh Bashing Obama only does so good (no matter how much pleasure it gives you) becsuse he'll be out of there soon enough, so let's hear some ideas other than throwing out all the Democrats because that's not going to happen, and even if it did, they'd still have their hand up the elephant's ass, if you know what I mean......
My approach has always been twofold.

First, alert people to the nightmare (not everyone is).  I created a thread (that has since morphed into this thread) detailing the reality of this bill, as it unfolded.  To show, just as predicted, what's actually happening as a result of the Affordable HealthCare Act:  Higher premiums, not lower.  People losing care, not gaining care.  Higher costs, not lower -- and the death panels, will also arrive.

Second, direct people's anger.  Get people disgusted with the actual slimeballs that did this.  "We gotta pass it, to find out what's in it."  The extremists -- the Democrats.  The Noble Peace Prize Winner, Barrack O'Bama.  Not because I'm "partisan" (you're right, Obama will be gone soon) but because, anger -- properly aligned and focused, and based on truth -- is what will be required to overcome a massive government insurrection on the most basic of human freedoms.  Our body.

We've never rolled back an entitlement program -- surely not one as massive as this.  One-sixth of the US economy.  The scale of this is almost indescribable.  The anger and sorrow that people will experience as this rolls out, flattening an entire generation like a giant typhoon -- must be properly directed.  The media is very good at blaming their opponents -- "the other party."  And the "other party" is so bad, and so willing to be loved, that they will always go along.  Once the Democrat media starts saying "sick people over 70 are too expensive to take care of -- not because of the program, but because the program wasn't funded enough -- Republicans wouldn't raise taxes.  They did this."

That's where this story will try to go.  That's not gonna help anything.  So we need to focus, like a laser beam -- for once in our life -- focus our disgust and political angst squarely at the people that did this.  We are blessed only with the truth and the fact that the program is called ObamaCare.  And little else.

Talking about "what we're going to replace it with" (which is what I think you're asking) comes later.  It's so far down the line, in my thinking.  Basically -- the house is on fire... it's not the time to talk about what color the drapes should be when we rebuild.  Planning ahead is good but, I find the task before us, so scary, massive and drastic -- that I'm running on fumes as is.



In conclusion -- it's really all about ANYBODY who supports the bill.  One by one, we will need these azzhats to lose their respective elections.  And if making Obama so toxic... that others think twice.  If it makes politicians attempt to understand just how toxic he is, and how angry people are -- then that's what we have to do.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:47:01 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

409.
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #280 on: November 11, 2013, 02:53:01 PM »

Once again, your entire approach seems to be 99% self-image based.... And when did I say ObamaCare doesn't go far enough? I said it was hideous and I mean it..... My point is, don't divide and conquer to the point where you're knocking off folks who share your essential belief about what it is you're on the ramage about just because they don't despise it with quite the same jackhammer intensity like you..... I respect your opinions, Bean, I really do.

You are obviously blessed with high intelligence AND a sense of humor. It's just that we all know where you stand and there comes a point where you have to ask "OK, but what are we going to do about it"Huh Bashing Obama only does so good (no matter how much pleasure it gives you) becsuse he'll be out of there soon enough, so let's hear some ideas other than throwing out all the Democrats because that's not going to happen, and even if it did, they'd still have their hand up the elephant's ass, if you know what I mean......
My approach has always been twofold.

First, alert people to the nightmare (not everyone is).  I created a thread (that has since morphed into this thread) detailing the reality of this bill, as it unfolded.  To show, just as predicted, what's actually happening as a result of the Affordable HealthCare Act:  Higher premiums, not lower.  People losing care, not gaining care.  Higher costs, not lower -- and the death panels, will also arrive.

Second, direct people's anger.  Get people disgusted with the actual slimeballs that did this.  "We gotta pass it, to find out what's in it."  The extremists -- the Democrats.  The Noble Peace Prize Winner, Barrack O'Bama.  Not because I'm "partisan" (you're right, Obama will be gone soon) but because, anger -- properly aligned and focused, and based on truth -- is what will be required to overcome a massive government insurrection on the most basic of human freedoms.  Our body.

We've never rolled back an entitlement program -- surely not one as massive as this.  One-sixth of the US economy.  The scale of this is almost indescribable.  The anger and sorrow that people will experience as this rolls out, flattening an entire generation like a giant typhoon -- must be properly directed.  The media is very good at blaming their opponents -- "the other party."  And the "other party" is so bad, and so willing to be loved, that they will always go along.  Once the Democrat media starts saying "sick people over 70 are too expensive to take care of -- not because of the program, but because the program wasn't funded enough -- Republicans wouldn't raise taxes.  They did this."

That's where this story will try to go.  That's not gonna help anything.  So we need to focus, like a laser beam -- for once in our life -- focus our disgust and political angst squarely at the people that did this.  We are blessed only with the truth and the fact that the program is called ObamaCare.  And little else.

Talking about "what we're going to replace it with" (which is what I think you're asking) comes later.  It's so far down the line, in my thinking.  Basically -- the house is on fire... it's not the time to talk about what color the drapes should be when we rebuild.  Planning ahead is good but, I find the task before us, so scary, massive and drastic -- that I'm running on fumes as is.





In conclusion -- it's really all about ANYBODY who supports the bill.  One by one, we will need these azzhats to lose their respective elections.  And if making Obama so toxic... that others think twice.  If it makes politicians attempt to understand just how toxic he is, and how angry people are -- then that's what we have to do.

Bean, for once we agree completely Smiley
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #281 on: November 13, 2013, 10:50:00 AM »

It's amazing to watch all of this unfold, but I think come apart at the seams is a better description. What more can be added to what's already playing out? People are angry, and asking questions. That's what I said way back on page 1 - ask the questions about how will this affect you. And it didn't even need to reach that point as it's now in the millions, the number of letters which have gone out.

I'm still angry. At least now versus October 1st when all of this arrived at my own front door, there are many more exactly in my situation feeling the same way. And as that number rises, look at what is still being done by those who crafted this fiasco in the first place.

Marginalize the numbers. Oh, there's not that many, it's only a small number, people cancel plans all the time. The new plans are better and more affordable. You'll now have maternity coverage! Thanks for that, as a man I really needed to pay for that versus the "junk" plan I had before this stupid law made it non-compliant.

Keep on that, you bunch of idiots. Dig the hole deeper.

Lie, lie, and continue to lie. Lie not only about the bill itself, but then also lie about what you lied about, about the bill itself. Keep it up. With the decline in credibility comes the decline in the ability to do much of anything substantial. Yet there must be an assumption that people like me who are actually directly affected by this are either ignorant or not as smart as the guys like Zeke Emmanuel who continue to lie and distort, ostensibly because they know what's better for me than even my own stupid self.

Now millions know who they are and what they are about. That's a good thing.

Solutions? I could list them. But as pointed out, the house is burning now, it's not as important to pick out your new furniture as you're watching the flames as it is to actually try putting out the fire, and minimizing the damage before the fire spreads.

Speaking of lies, outright lies, we now have the spectacle of a group of democrats whose political seats are on the line in the next elections. They called a meeting with Obama, a fact coincidentally not reported to anyone until some reporters got wind of the scuttlebutt going around DC. They gave him an earful, apparently, about how the lies are harming their chances. Of how they're having to field thousands if not tens of thousands of calls and letters from their constituents demanding answers on this law. And all of those are not some GOP-led ploy, but rather their own voters and supporters who have gotten "the letter" and have seen firsthand the exact opposite of what they were told the law would offer them. Namely, affordable care, reduced rates, and the ability to keep their own plans if they wished.

So we see now these democrats like Feinstein (CA) and Landreiu (LA) suggesting they were all but blindsided by the spectacle of their constituents if not their own friends and family members getting cancellation letters, and being forced into more expensive plans.

Problem is, that's an outright lie.

It's just starting to break, but look further into a senator named Mike Enzi (WY). He read the bill, and in 2010 took to the floor of the Senate with a proposal to stop what is happening now, namely to correct the "grandfathering" elements of the law which are in large part behind what's going on as we speak.

He was voted down, in fact every democrat voted against it. So when they suggest "we didn't know this would happen" or "we were misled" up to Fall 2013, they are quite simply full of sh*t. And they're lying. Since they in fact had this proposal in front of them and presented to them in 2010, and all of them to a person were against it.

Now they're left not only lying, but looking like fools. Of course, if they took the advice "you need to pass to bill to find out what's in the bill", they're in perfect lock-step with the plan from the beginning.

And Obama and his administration have created their own Catch-22 in a way. Now they're said to be looking into options to allow us to keep our current plans if we want.

Problem is, the very design of this bill, and how it would be funded, hinged on moving people currently buying their own insurance into higher-priced government exchange plans.

Let me repeat that: In order to fund the plan, millions who were currently buying insurance would need to move to the exchanges. And since they would not do so voluntarily, the plans would be audited and declared "non-compliant" in order to terminate them, and force those private payers into the Obama exchanges, which would then add millions to the available funding and keep the new "Affordable Care Act" feasible.

Problem is, it also depends on new people buying into new policies. That's not happening, at least so far nowhere near the goals and quotas they had set for the plan in order to financially support it.

So if you heed the call of these senators like Landrieu who lie and claim they didn't know the effects on people would have been this serious, and change it so they can keep their plans, it cuts the funding which was one of the key elements of the plan to begin with.

And it puts the whole thing into a tailspin.

So a combination of poor design, assumptions about the people who would be affected, lies and distortions in attempts to sell the plan and marginalize those questioning it, and a dose of old fashioned "supply and demand" where many people shopping for a plan ( "just as you would on Amazon and Kayak!... Grin )  have seen what products are being offered and are not rushing to mail in their payment just yet, have created what looks to be a massive shitstorm of errors, lies, and incompetence.

Difference is, people are seeing it firsthand this time. It's not buried on page 7 of your phone bill or electric bill or your yearly property tax bill.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Bean Bag
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177


Right?


View Profile
« Reply #282 on: November 14, 2013, 08:19:39 AM »

All these politicians need to lose their jobs.  Their fat, cushy, 24-hour catered jobs.  They're not governing or officiating -- they're ruling.  Living like rulers.  If they're ever caught in a lie, like Obama is, they just lie again.  Because the Media will not call them out.  Obama is now lying about the plans.  Says they're probably even better than the one you just lost.  Really?  Cuz, I'm pretty sure they're not.  Oh, by the way...2014.  People who currently get their plans from their employer (ie, most Americans) -- will start losing their plans in 2014.  That's real soon. Wink

The Media is in bed with the State.  They're "dating."  They attend the same schools.  They attend the same parties.  They trade jobs when they get fired or lose an election.  And when they're done with their spouse, they'll even trade those too, I think.

I don't know if people understand this fully.  The reason voters (dead or alive) keep reelecting entrenched, Statist politicians is because the media has made them out to look cool.  Like role models.  Rather than serve their Constitutional role, the Media opts to keep people entertained with the exploits of Miley Cyrus and Good Morning America and trying to trip-up Sarah Palin on what magazines she reads.  Yeah, awesome!  Informing Americans about how their government staged a coup on their HealthCare is not as important as getting New York street-women birth control pills.  We're only supposed to believe it's all unicorns and rainbows, as a result.

I mention this because the media knew all this was going to happen.  They chose to remain "neutral."  Which is how Poland fell in 1939.  They're supposed to protect and inform us of this crap.  To grill Washington when it even whispers of such an act.  Yet many (most) media outlets chose to even promote it.  WebMD (a "junk" medical site) was bought out.  Did you'all hear about this?  They were paid millions by the Obama Administration to spin yarns about the wonders of the Affordable Healthcare Act.  Out here in America, we call that shet "lies."  But in Washington, they call it "grossly misleading."

They're lies.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 08:23:10 AM by Bean Bag » Logged

409.
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #283 on: November 14, 2013, 10:34:04 AM »

It keeps getting better. Take a moment this afternoon to browse the headlines about the press conference today. According to the AP, the headline is: "Obama To Allow Sale Of Canceled Plans".

Am I the only one bothered by that? Exactly WHAT authority is being referenced in order to report that Obama has the power to "allow" anything without going through the legal process in which laws are written, passed, and amended?

Or is this health care law fiasco under a different set of legal boundaries, where a president can simply "allow" or "disallow" anything he sees fit to change? Since when does any part of the Executive Branch have greater authority and power to change a law independent of the Legislative and Judicial, and the systems in place regarding laws in general?

Damn, this has gone into the surreal at this point.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Awesoman
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1830


Disagreements? Work 'em out.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #284 on: November 14, 2013, 05:52:11 PM »

It's both exhilarating and frustrating to see people finally wisening up to the circus that is Obama.  Barrack Obama is a classic tale of style over substance.  He and his gang have no clue how to improve things for the country.  Obama himself seems to think his sheer ego is the answer.  Of course the Republicans aren't faring much better these days as they're too busy squabbling amongst themselves.  At this rate, I fear things are only going to get worse. 
Logged

And if you don't know where you're going
Any road will take you there
Jason
Guest
« Reply #285 on: November 14, 2013, 06:20:37 PM »

The time for tolerating liberals and their sick degeneracy and lunacy is over. They should be condemned to the dustbin of history along with their intolerant and collectivist ideology. They made their beds. And, in typical liberal fashion, they expect others to lay in them. Liberalism is a mental disorder and needs to be ostracized from civil society.
Logged
Bean Bag
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177


Right?


View Profile
« Reply #286 on: November 14, 2013, 07:43:05 PM »

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Sort of.  A spiritual disorder maybe.  Not in a religious way, of course.  But, in a standing on a mountain top, taking a deep breath way.  How we position ourselves -- down deep.  Our souls?  Whatever I fancy -- it's how we form our line of thinking.



I don't know what would drive someone to think they should do this.  Take over (and manage) the United States HealthCare system.  For every citizen of the United States.  Why?  Money?  Caring?  Their own self-image?

What were they thinking?

According to the AP, the headline is: "Obama To Allow Sale Of Canceled Plans".

They may have been thinking of doing just what they're doing.  To make a system that left Obama in charge.  Or whomever's there, doesn't matter.  Kind of like he's doing.  Pass the bill to find out what's in the bill.  We find out what's in the bill, after they pass it.  Not a stretch, is it?  Almost like they planned it from the beginning.


Knock knock.
Who's There?

Progressives.
Progressives who?

This time, it's whatever we Progressives want.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 07:46:55 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

409.
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #287 on: November 15, 2013, 02:42:07 AM »

The time for tolerating liberals and their sick degeneracy and lunacy is over. They should be condemned to the dustbin of history along with their intolerant and collectivist ideology. They made their beds. And, in typical liberal fashion, they expect others to lay in them. Liberalism is a mental disorder and needs to be ostracized from civil society.

Spoken like a true sociopath.....

As much as we agree, this is where you guys lose me..... And you are smart enough to know better.

Maybe people wake up one day and decide to be conservatives (ala Michael Savage: who displays much more nuance than you) but I promise you, no one just decides to be a liberal. Why? Because the word means next to nothing to anyone but you.... Besides, if selfishness, mean spiritedness, cruelty, bluster, ego shame, violence (financial and physical) continue to exist, so will whatever the hell it is you've decided to call "liberalism"  ( which Obama/Obamacare certainly are not)... Deal with or just stay in your cave.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 02:53:36 AM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
Jason
Guest
« Reply #288 on: November 15, 2013, 07:44:43 AM »

You know, if, a year ago, I had heard a similar sentiment like the one I expressed last night, I would have agreed with you on the "sociopath" thing. But the label is misplaced. It is liberals who are the sociopaths. Always deflecting the blame, always ducking out of the problems they create. Tolerance and open minds are for everyone but them in their eyes. In their unending quest for social justice, tolerance, and open-mindedness, they proved themselves to be the ones wanting in that regard.

They should be ostracized until they learn just what an "open mind" is.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #289 on: November 15, 2013, 10:44:32 AM »

I want to point out something said in the press conference yesterday, something that got lost but which I think is almost as revealing and as accidentally on-point as anything else being quoted from the press conference. This is the exact transcript of the answer I'm referencing, I'm putting in bold a few key sentences.

You know, I — I’ve got to say I meet with an awful lot of folks, and I talk to an awful lot of folks every day. And I have lunches with CEOs and IT venture capitalists and labor leaders and, you know, pretty much folks from all walks of life on a whole bunch of topics. And if you looked at my schedule on any given day, we’re interacting with a whole lot of people.

And I think it’s fair to say that we have a pretty good track record of working with folks on technology and IT from our campaign, where, both in 2008 and 2012, we did a pretty darn good job on that. So it’s not that — you know, the idea that somehow we didn’t have access or were interested in people’s — people’s ideas I think isn’t accurate.

What is true is that, as I said before, our IT systems, how we purchase technology in the federal government is cumbersome, complicated and outdated. And so this isn’t a situation where — on my campaign, I could simply say, who are the best folks out there, let’s get them around a table, let’s figure out what we’re doing and we’re just going to continue to improve it and refine it and work on our goals.

If you’re doing it at the federal government level, you know, you’re going through, you know, 40 pages of specs and this and that and the other and there’s all kinds of law involved. And it makes it more difficult — it’s part of the reason why chronically federal IT programs are overbudget, behind schedule.


And one of the — you know, when I do some Monday morning quarterbacking on myself, one of the things that I do recognize is since I know that the federal government has not been good at this stuff in the past[/size], two years ago as we were thinking about this, you know, we might have done more to make sure that we were breaking the mold on how we were going to be setting this up. But that doesn’t help us now. We got to move forward.

What you heard there is stunning, actually. It's an admission that one of the federal government systems that Obama seems to be pointing a finger of blame at is almost exactly what people who have complained about similar federal government programs for years have been saying. If you try to open or expand an individual business, we have said, the laundry list of regulations, codes, and red tape are amazingly cumbersome, and in many cases prohibitive of running that business efficiently.

The one paragraph alone, describing having to navigate "40 pages" of specs and "all kinds of law involved" in order to put a plan in motion is EXACTLY WHAT THE COMPLAINT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS! The federal government is the problem! Hello?

So now Obama is on the record pointing a finger at government process and procedures in terms of setting up his health care website and IT matters in general, and in contrast cites his campaign's efforts online and in social media as being effective by calling in the best and the brightest in order to achieve (and exceed) their stated goals.

So, I might ask, if the admission is that the federal procedures and regulations and 40 pages of specs and the whole ball of wax is part of the problem behind the health care website failures, WHY would you in any way logically propose MORE of that kind of onerous regulation and procedure on us?

So the admission is there that the system basically sucks, and is causing more trouble than if it were not in place with the White House's IT systems, yet who is advocating and imposing even more of these systems on the citizens?

Damn. It got spelled out right there at the lectern on live television yesterday, I hope more people will catch on and see what the president himself thinks of the federal government boondoggles which have hindered his agenda, yet seem to be the best solution for our personal, daily lives.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 10:51:24 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Dunderhead
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1643



View Profile
« Reply #290 on: November 15, 2013, 11:40:40 AM »

Obamacare has insured -3.9 million people.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303789604579197733759439274?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_4

Logged

TEAM COHEN; OFFICIAL CAPTAIN (2013-)
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #291 on: November 15, 2013, 12:54:48 PM »

You know, if, a year ago, I had heard a similar sentiment like the one I expressed last night, I would have agreed with you on the "sociopath" thing. But the label is misplaced. It is liberals who are the sociopaths. Always deflecting the blame, always ducking out of the problems they create. Tolerance and open minds are for everyone but them in their eyes. In their unending quest for social justice, tolerance, and open-mindedness, they proved themselves to be the ones wanting in that regard.

They should be ostracized until they learn just what an "open mind" is.

But who are you even talking about? Is it merely anybody that does not share your views on such subjects to the letter? When you talk about "liberals" you are basically talking about humans who have not decided to jump on a particular ideological or political bandwagon, therefore if your view of the world is simply miscreant and anti-social, please don't try and push it off anything more....

And once again: who is advocating Obamacare here? I'm certainly not, but I'm liberal scum simply because I do not share your negative and defeatest outlook? (people needing to be ostracized, and removed from history)

The reason I take issue with this is because you guys are here using Obama and ObamaCare as gigantic symbols of liberal idocy when they are really quite the opposite..... ObamaCare is a policy that is designed to profit private industry, and it looks like it is working in that exact way in practice. In fact, the ACA ensures that private industry dominates the health care market (you guy's favorite word) .... The ACA requires that health care plans specifically carry a set of 10 essential services that insurance companies are, really, in no obligation to pay for. This means that policy costs are expected to escelate radically and the public is largely forced to obtain coverage .... This is not news to anyone who recalls the right wing, pro-business Heritage Foundation from 89 (itself a rewriting of a Nixon initiative from 74) which noted that such a program would "mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance" ... For all these reasons, the major health carriers are currently experiencing major financial victories from ObamaCare and predict more and more to come. Someone wrote earlier that insurance companies are LOSING business, which is a complete fabrication. A recent article in Forbes stated that health care carriers are projecting "robust revenue growth and profits from a boom in business from newly insured Americans under the ACA. In fact a CEO from Wellpoint released a statement saying they were raising their 2013 membership EPS guidance which reflects their "strong performance, and continued preperation and outlook fofr coming market changes under the ACA. Similar statements have come from Aetna, Humana, and the UnitedHealth Group .....

So, once again: I can't help but see all this posturing from you guys as pure self image based chest beating and shadowboxing with an imagined "liberal" enemy..... Are there issues with folks who are not right wing? sure, But once again, until we learn to stop leaning on these self-editing terms like "liberal" "conservative" we'll never solve a damn thing ...... Is Obama a fraud? Sure he is, but if you think the problem here has to do with him being a "liberal" or with "liberals" in general, think again .... It is concerning that you guys persist in willfully deluding yourselves and others that it's just "them damn liberals" who need to be scourged from history (we've heard such talk before, haven't we? It's dangerous claptrap) while in plain view, insurance companies are namechecking ObamaCare as the reason for growing confidence and expectations for their bottom line. But facts don't matter when we're dealing with folk who choose to allow the very people they despise shape, form, and direct their self images, and by rote: their ideologies......
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #292 on: November 15, 2013, 03:54:17 PM »

The Affordable Care Act was a compromise when enough votes for a full industry takeover via implementing a single payer, fully government run system failed due to the lack of votes, in light of the late Ted Kennedy's seat being won by a "no" vote and Sen. Joe Lieberman not supporting the full-strength bill. The goal was an all-out takeover of the health insurance industry and a transition to a government-funded, single payer model. That failed.

So maybe I'm just misunderstanding what's being suggested, but when the ultimate goals involved a takeover by the government of a private industry, which in this case was a move to eliminate the private health care insurance industry in general, I fail to see how it's a positive for the industry that's being systematically dismantled and taken over by the federal government.

Look what happened to the millions of individual accounts which have already been rendered non-compliant. The government needed a certain quota of enrollments into the "Obamacare Exchanges" in order to fund the program itself. And knowing that individual buyers like me would never voluntarily give up a current plan which was filling our needs and which we were overall satisfied with in general in favor of an exchange-based plan where we'd pay more and get less for services like maternity care, pediatric dentistry, and alcoholism counseling which some of us are 100% we will *never need* due to simple things like being a single man or a post-menopausal woman, they had to "force" people like us into buying into the new exchange-based plans.

And the way they forced that was to declare plans like mine which may not have covered pediatric dentistry non-compliant.

Which is a total scam. And a fraud. But that's been covered.

The way the plan is unfolding and unraveling through a combination of inept federal government operations, lies and fraud, and pure incompetence, it might be more effective in demonstrating the inherent flaws in the whole notion of government "taking over" and trying to run a private industry than any debate of ideology or political theory.

As people start to see firsthand the notions of "So is this the way the federal government runs things?" where they've had all the previous experience with private industry...and if after the government taking over and promising better coverage and reduced costs leads to the exact opposite result...the ideology behind wanting any form of a federal government takeover of a private industry or service will fall victim to people's own reality as it affects them negatively.

And to point out again, Obama himself complained about the government red tape and bullshit surrounding his own government's IT programs, and how it made the IT programs less efficient than the private sector with similar programs, including Obama's own campaign operations, heavily focused on internet and social media components.

That was as ironic as it was funny as it is just plain pathetic.

Don't like the government regulation red tape and the hassles that come along with it? Simple. Don't assume in your ideology that a federal agency can take over and run any business or service which the private industry already does more efficiently.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 03:57:21 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #293 on: November 15, 2013, 04:31:37 PM »

The Affordable Care Act was a compromise when enough votes for a full industry takeover via implementing a single payer, fully government run system failed due to the lack of votes, in light of the late Ted Kennedy's seat being won by a "no" vote and Sen. Joe Lieberman not supporting the full-strength bill. The goal was an all-out takeover of the health insurance industry and a transition to a government-funded, single payer model. That failed.

So maybe I'm just misunderstanding what's being suggested, but when the ultimate goals involved a takeover by the government of a private industry, which in this case was a move to eliminate the private health care insurance industry in general, I fail to see how it's a positive for the industry that's being systematically dismantled and taken over by the federal government.

Look what happened to the millions of individual accounts which have already been rendered non-compliant. The government needed a certain quota of enrollments into the "Obamacare Exchanges" in order to fund the program itself. And knowing that individual buyers like me would never voluntarily give up a current plan which was filling our needs and which we were overall satisfied with in general in favor of an exchange-based plan where we'd pay more and get less for services like maternity care, pediatric dentistry, and alcoholism counseling which some of us are 100% we will *never need* due to simple things like being a single man or a post-menopausal woman, they had to "force" people like us into buying into the new exchange-based plans.

And the way they forced that was to declare plans like mine which may not have covered pediatric dentistry non-compliant.

Which is a total scam. And a fraud. But that's been covered.

The way the plan is unfolding and unraveling through a combination of inept federal government operations, lies and fraud, and pure incompetence, it might be more effective in demonstrating the inherent flaws in the whole notion of government "taking over" and trying to run a private industry than any debate of ideology or political theory.

As people start to see firsthand the notions of "So is this the way the federal government runs things?" where they've had all the previous experience with private industry...and if after the government taking over and promising better coverage and reduced costs leads to the exact opposite result...the ideology behind wanting any form of a federal government takeover of a private industry or service will fall victim to people's own reality as it affects them negatively.

And to point out again, Obama himself complained about the government red tape and bullshit surrounding his own government's IT programs, and how it made the IT programs less efficient than the private sector with similar programs, including Obama's own campaign operations, heavily focused on internet and social media components.

That was as ironic as it was funny as it is just plain pathetic.

Don't like the government regulation red tape and the hassles that come along with it? Simple. Don't assume in your ideology that a federal agency can take over and run any business or service which the private industry already does more efficiently.



"More efficiently" doesn't say very much. I mean, it worked just fine for some in an "I got mine" sort of fashion, but was dismal for many.... But why are we even arguing? It's obvious neither the federal government nor private industry is capable of much other then taking care of the bottom line and staying in office. My point is blaming the enture universe on liberals will get no one anywhere.... Might as well blame Darth Vader or Bruce Johnston.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:32:43 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
Alex
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2660



View Profile
« Reply #294 on: November 16, 2013, 08:05:53 AM »

The Affordable Care Act was a compromise when enough votes for a full industry takeover via implementing a single payer, fully government run system failed due to the lack of votes, in light of the late Ted Kennedy's seat being won by a "no" vote and Sen. Joe Lieberman not supporting the full-strength bill. The goal was an all-out takeover of the health insurance industry and a transition to a government-funded, single payer model. That failed.

So maybe I'm just misunderstanding what's being suggested, but when the ultimate goals involved a takeover by the government of a private industry, which in this case was a move to eliminate the private health care insurance industry in general, I fail to see how it's a positive for the industry that's being systematically dismantled and taken over by the federal government.

Look what happened to the millions of individual accounts which have already been rendered non-compliant. The government needed a certain quota of enrollments into the "Obamacare Exchanges" in order to fund the program itself. And knowing that individual buyers like me would never voluntarily give up a current plan which was filling our needs and which we were overall satisfied with in general in favor of an exchange-based plan where we'd pay more and get less for services like maternity care, pediatric dentistry, and alcoholism counseling which some of us are 100% we will *never need* due to simple things like being a single man or a post-menopausal woman, they had to "force" people like us into buying into the new exchange-based plans.

And the way they forced that was to declare plans like mine which may not have covered pediatric dentistry non-compliant.

Which is a total scam. And a fraud. But that's been covered.

The way the plan is unfolding and unraveling through a combination of inept federal government operations, lies and fraud, and pure incompetence, it might be more effective in demonstrating the inherent flaws in the whole notion of government "taking over" and trying to run a private industry than any debate of ideology or political theory.

As people start to see firsthand the notions of "So is this the way the federal government runs things?" where they've had all the previous experience with private industry...and if after the government taking over and promising better coverage and reduced costs leads to the exact opposite result...the ideology behind wanting any form of a federal government takeover of a private industry or service will fall victim to people's own reality as it affects them negatively.

And to point out again, Obama himself complained about the government red tape and bullshit surrounding his own government's IT programs, and how it made the IT programs less efficient than the private sector with similar programs, including Obama's own campaign operations, heavily focused on internet and social media components.

That was as ironic as it was funny as it is just plain pathetic.

Don't like the government regulation red tape and the hassles that come along with it? Simple. Don't assume in your ideology that a federal agency can take over and run any business or service which the private industry already does more efficiently.



"More efficiently" doesn't say very much. I mean, it worked just fine for some in an "I got mine" sort of fashion, but was dismal for many.... But why are we even arguing? It's obvious neither the federal government nor private industry is capable of much other then taking care of the bottom line and staying in office. My point is blaming the enture universe on liberals will get no one anywhere.... Might as well blame Darth Vader or Bruce Johnston.

Like, +1, This. , etc.
Logged

"I thought Brian was a perfect gentleman, apart from buttering his head and trying to put it between two slices of bread"  -Tom Petty, after eating with Brian.

https://givemesomeboots1.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #295 on: November 16, 2013, 10:43:09 AM »

"More efficiently" doesn't say very much. I mean, it worked just fine for some in an "I got mine" sort of fashion, but was dismal for many.... But why are we even arguing? It's obvious neither the federal government nor private industry is capable of much other then taking care of the bottom line and staying in office. My point is blaming the enture universe on liberals will get no one anywhere.... Might as well blame Darth Vader or Bruce Johnston.

And the problem I had with your recent replies is that they're not correct, when the charge is that the grand scheme here was a collusion between the feds and the private insurance industry. In fact, it was not, and if that's the story being presented in order to make someone or some entity a "villain" in order to shift blame, then I'll call it out. Let me state this again, for as many flaws as there were within the private insurance industry, and as many issues that needed to be addressed and fixed, the fact that the original intent of the health care bill was to dismantle, render obsolete,  and replace the entire notion of private insurance. That's been a goal for one particular political ideology for decades now, from Teddy Kennedy to Hilary Clinton up to the present day "architects" like Zeke Emanuel. But even with a democrat majority in the Senate and one in the House, they simply could not muster enough yes votes to push it over the finish line.

Which is how, and where, and why the current Affordable Care Act which is nothing but an embarrassment came to exist. They did not want private insurance to be a competitor, even with the compromises, but it became clear that they simply could not in one fell swoop take away everyone's current private insurance and replace it with government-controlled insurance along the lines of Medicaid, which still exists and which the majority of "new" enrollments are going into. And that new system now has to take on millions of new recipients, and a lot of that will now fall to the states to fully fund such a program. ironic, isn't it? Fed says this is the law, states pick up the balance of the tab. See how long that works.

Again, though, falling into the narrative, there needs to be a boogieman to blame for the chaos, after the "organizers" have already either created or exploited the chaos already in existence.

And if we follow the Alinsky theory, that boogieman has now become the insurance industry.

And Obama's "fix" will do not much more than throw the entire system into even more chaos, to add onto the website debacle, the mass-cancellation debacle, the "extension" and "exemption" to the mandates debacle, and any number of other debacles we have seen play out just this fall.

When that chaos hits at full-speed, there can be a boogeyman to have the finger of blame pointed at, and there can also be the "organizer" who can step in and start organizing and providing all the answers the panicked public is longing to hear from a voice of authority.

Guess who is the boogeyman? Guess who is the saving grace organizer? And guess what the solution proposed will be to calm the chaos and soothe the hurting masses?

Classic, and I mean *classic* Saul Alinsky theory, "Rules For Radicals".

So tell me, if such a plan fits neatly into the design of a man and his book which espouse a very specific political ideology, why can't that ideology be called out or at least called into question when the sh*t really starts hitting the fan and it simply does not work in practical terms, or everyday life?

Or can any of these failures never be attributed even slightly to a failed principle or a failed theory on which it was based rather than finding a boogeyman to blame for getting in the way of the progress?
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #296 on: November 16, 2013, 02:29:26 PM »

"More efficiently" doesn't say very much. I mean, it worked just fine for some in an "I got mine" sort of fashion, but was dismal for many.... But why are we even arguing? It's obvious neither the federal government nor private industry is capable of much other then taking care of the bottom line and staying in office. My point is blaming the enture universe on liberals will get no one anywhere.... Might as well blame Darth Vader or Bruce Johnston.

And the problem I had with your recent replies is that they're not correct, when the charge is that the grand scheme here was a collusion between the feds and the private insurance industry. In fact, it was not, and if that's the story being presented in order to make someone or some entity a "villain" in order to shift blame, then I'll call it out. Let me state this again, for as many flaws as there were within the private insurance industry, and as many issues that needed to be addressed and fixed, the fact that the original intent of the health care bill was to dismantle, render obsolete,  and replace the entire notion of private insurance. That's been a goal for one particular political ideology for decades now, from Teddy Kennedy to Hilary Clinton up to the present day "architects" like Zeke Emanuel. But even with a democrat majority in the Senate and one in the House, they simply could not muster enough yes votes to push it over the finish line.

Which is how, and where, and why the current Affordable Care Act which is nothing but an embarrassment came to exist. They did not want private insurance to be a competitor, even with the compromises, but it became clear that they simply could not in one fell swoop take away everyone's current private insurance and replace it with government-controlled insurance along the lines of Medicaid, which still exists and which the majority of "new" enrollments are going into. And that new system now has to take on millions of new recipients, and a lot of that will now fall to the states to fully fund such a program. ironic, isn't it? Fed says this is the law, states pick up the balance of the tab. See how long that works.

Again, though, falling into the narrative, there needs to be a boogieman to blame for the chaos, after the "organizers" have already either created or exploited the chaos already in existence.

And if we follow the Alinsky theory, that boogieman has now become the insurance industry.

And Obama's "fix" will do not much more than throw the entire system into even more chaos, to add onto the website debacle, the mass-cancellation debacle, the "extension" and "exemption" to the mandates debacle, and any number of other debacles we have seen play out just this fall.

When that chaos hits at full-speed, there can be a boogeyman to have the finger of blame pointed at, and there can also be the "organizer" who can step in and start organizing and providing all the answers the panicked public is longing to hear from a voice of authority.

Guess who is the boogeyman? Guess who is the saving grace organizer? And guess what the solution proposed will be to calm the chaos and soothe the hurting masses?

Classic, and I mean *classic* Saul Alinsky theory, "Rules For Radicals".

So tell me, if such a plan fits neatly into the design of a man and his book which espouse a very specific political ideology, why can't that ideology be called out or at least called into question when the sh*t really starts hitting the fan and it simply does not work in practical terms, or everyday life?

Or can any of these failures never be attributed even slightly to a failed principle or a failed theory on which it was based rather than finding a boogeyman to blame for getting in the way of the progress?

And what is not correct?

Speaking of efficiancy (as you put it) the US has had one of the least efficiant health care systems in the first world for years and that system had (and is still) been controlled by private industry. It was/is not only a vastly more expensive system than others but it is one that not every citizen could actually benefit from. For the most part, as many a study has shown, it was those private aspects of health care that were far more inefficiant than the public aspects such as Medicare. In fact, the reason why health care prices are so high is because the amount of money invested into private companies wasting money on research and development to concoct copycat drugs to compete in the marketplace and because of outrageously expensive high administrative costs of private health care in comparison to public systems and because the US is THE only country in the industralized world where it is illegal for the government to use it's purchasing power to negotiate drug prices. And that's putting aside the fact that the main players/shapers/framers of the health care policy noted in the 70s that what made the system work was that private industry could profit by denying care. I mean, it was a terrible and completely inefficiant system. The boast that "private industry" does it better is terribly deliusional, when in reality, other countries provide health care for everyone at lower cost to the taxpayer..... But, as I've stated, it seems clear that such facts can be easily and happily brushed off when the real motivating factors for your opinions are the spectral, fantasy boogeyman of "liberalism" and your dream image of the "free market" .... I take issue with this because it is a very dangerous mindset when people want other's lives and health to be determined and left to the fate of willfull delusions which feed a convoluted self image.... Do I advocate being a blind "liberal" and bending over for Obama and waving that flag? Hell no! But denouncing him and his policy is really waging a weak battle. Bean Bag is correct in that knocking down the phoney heroic Obama totem is a crucial act in waking people up but it's not enough. Losing EVERY sort of willfull delusion is the way. And that includes such misty eyed faith in the "free market" that has been displayed in these threads.

Some choice reading.... A bit slanted, but still.....

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/75077/how-they-did-it
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 05:12:36 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
Bean Bag
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177


Right?


View Profile
« Reply #297 on: November 17, 2013, 10:17:17 PM »

The government does not provide Coca-Cola.  Nor Pepsi.  Yet these products & services exist.  Do they not?  And they're cheap.  Even the poor enjoy them, along with TV and McDonalds.  It's to the point now that the poor outweigh the rich.  Literally.  Used to be the opposite.  Strange?  No.

I have the utmost faith that a free-market will provide, Pinder.  In abundance.  It's the point of a free-market.

A free market has not existed in American Healthcare for awhile.  Many don't realize that.  We've had an insurance market.  So in my analogy, what we've had is -- not Coca-Cola, Pepsi and McDonalds sold to us cheaply at the grocer or fast food joint -- but a program where I pay Blue Cross & Blue Shield monthly, out of my paycheck (if I'm lucky!) to pay who-knows-how-many middle men.  Then on top of that, I pay a co-pay of $20 each visit -- to get my soda and fries, that should have cost $5.  Meanwhile, the insurance company pays McDonalds back, $350 for the meal.

Does that sound like a free market? No.  That's insanity.  That's Leftwing, Liberal Progressivism, left home alone.  That's how the (outgoing) Health Care industry was designed by Saul Alinsky Progressive Demorats, like Tedward Kennedy.  It was made to drive the cost of a burger and fries from a realistic, free market $5 -- to a socialist paradise of $350*  (*with food insurance).

Now, Oh!BamaCare is taking the current system to a previously unimaginable level of madness.  A "soda and fries" will soon cost $2,000 dollars.  It's happening.  Thank you Obama.

To get the basic services of Health Care back into reality... we should only have insurance for big things.  Like we have for our house.  Or car.  That's the point of insurance.  That's their business.  We pay them to insure us.  Not feed us.  The free market will take care your daily needs.  Because it can.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 10:18:28 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

409.
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3744



View Profile
« Reply #298 on: November 17, 2013, 11:58:02 PM »

The government does not provide Coca-Cola.  Nor Pepsi.  Yet these products & services exist.  Do they not?  And they're cheap.  Even the poor enjoy them, along with TV and McDonalds.  It's to the point now that the poor outweigh the rich.  Literally.  Used to be the opposite.  Strange?  No.

I have the utmost faith that a free-market will provide, Pinder.  In abundance.  It's the point of a free-market.

A free market has not existed in American Healthcare for awhile.  Many don't realize that.  We've had an insurance market.  So in my analogy, what we've had is -- not Coca-Cola, Pepsi and McDonalds sold to us cheaply at the grocer or fast food joint -- but a program where I pay Blue Cross & Blue Shield monthly, out of my paycheck (if I'm lucky!) to pay who-knows-how-many middle men.  Then on top of that, I pay a co-pay of $20 each visit -- to get my soda and fries, that should have cost $5.  Meanwhile, the insurance company pays McDonalds back, $350 for the meal.

Does that sound like a free market? No.  That's insanity.  That's Leftwing, Liberal Progressivism, left home alone.  That's how the (outgoing) Health Care industry was designed by Saul Alinsky Progressive Demorats, like Tedward Kennedy.  It was made to drive the cost of a burger and fries from a realistic, free market $5 -- to a socialist paradise of $350*  (*with food insurance).

Now, Oh!BamaCare is taking the current system to a previously unimaginable level of madness.  A "soda and fries" will soon cost $2,000 dollars.  It's happening.  Thank you Obama.

To get the basic services of Health Care back into reality... we should only have insurance for big things.  Like we have for our house.  Or car.  That's the point of insurance.  That's their business.  We pay them to insure us.  Not feed us.  The free market will take care your daily needs.  Because it can.

But it does not, Bean, and it never has..... we have to take care of ourtselves because the free market really wants to harm our health which is why we have such crappy nutrition in this country. The big money is not behind those who care to push good health. Any free market that will see billions and billions served at MacDonalds is not a free market that will take care of anyone but their corporate bottom line..... The choice is our and ours only, but the money is not on our side..... I agree with much of what you said in your post, but the free market will not take care of us......... Nor has there ever really been a free market in this country..... Call it Liberalisn or Corporatism, or right winder-ness but those words are all just ways of distracting oneself..... I should really just nod my head and agree with you, because liberalism is indeed to blame for much of what I myself can't tolerate, but it's just one rotten apple in a whole rotten barrel. I would adivse you open your mind just a bit.

Btw, your comment about the poor being fatter than the rich displays hideous ignorance,. I'd explain it, but you already know damn well..... Then again, if you're stuffing yourself full of soda, fries, and burgers nonstop while rubbing your belly and thanking the free market for such gifts: you have some very serious problems that Obama or Liberals have nothing to do with and neither them, the free market, or your beloved right wing will or can help you.... If I made only the worst choices with my health as well,  I guess I'd worship the free market for allowing myself to do so too, so I guess you're starting to make sense...... But we all have our vices and our weaknesses, and I think it makes perfect sense to both praise and curse the heavens for making them avilable to us.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 12:49:17 AM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
Bean Bag
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177


Right?


View Profile
« Reply #299 on: November 18, 2013, 08:08:08 AM »

You sure have a strange way of agreeing with me Pinder!  LOL

Nevertheless, I'm not backing down -- and you're not convincing me that I should.  My point was -- a free market is best suited to provide the best services for the masses.  And at the best possible price.  To back up my claim, I cited the successes in other essential services.  I used food as an example, since I believe food is one of the most essential of all essential services -- necessary for all life.  And with the food industry, I for one, love the freedom, affordability and variety that the free market provides the food industry.

To your point -- if I choose to eat healthy -- I see that the market is vastly more capable of providing and responding to my dietary demands.  And as more people get in the health food racket -- something amazing happens Pinder...



...more and more abundance and variety occurs as a result.  It's a cornucopia of choice!  MORE CHOICE.  BETTER OPTIONS.  And all of it at increasingly BETTER PRICES.  It's a miracle!  I'm not talking right-wing ideology or professorial dreams.  But hard, microwavable FACTs.  Real results, in minutes or your pizza's free.  This is NOT what happens in Socialist models -- where demand CRUSHES supply with the cold iron fist of LIMITED SUPPLY.  That's sad.   Cry  Socialism is scam.

The same applies to health care.  Yes it does, dammit.   Angry


What's the Role of Government?
Glad you asked.  Government has the fancy role of officiating.  Just like in a sporting event.  They get the stripe shirts and whistles.  But they should NOT be players in the game.  They should NOT be quaterbacking, calling the plays, or deciding who wins and who doesn't (affirmative action).  Likewise, they shouldn't be manning the drive-thru, for that matter.  They're should NOT be choosing the menu and serving the meals.  They should NOT be controlling doctors, giving us shots and putting their fingers up our b5tts.  They should NOT have access to my "files."





Listen, everyone:  The US Federal Government is not a provider.  It's not a care-giver.  Government is not a chef.  That's not opinion, just reality.


"You sayin'... I'm not a care-giver?"

I used fast food and soda as the lowest common denominator.  It's hard to miss how "well fed" our citizens are, eh Pinder?  But the same applies to tofu, if that's how you decide you must see it.  If tofu was good (even if it's not, but you think it is) there's a place to buy it.


I just don't understand how people can see the abundance and say:  "No, not a good model.  It's not working."  How is it they look past the overflowing options we are blessed with in a free country -- and spit at it.  Do they not realize that if their favorite option doesn't exist, that the free market allows them to start providing it themselves, for a profit?!  How can they say that the abundance, affordability and endless choice THAT WE ALL ENJOY in every other aspect of our lives -- from fancy restaurants to greasy diners, from bars and nightclubs to shoes and hats, from music and movies to sweaters and pants -- is something that we must deprive other services -- essential or not?

But I digress.  O'Blamo is destroying the healthcare system and lying about it, cuz he thinks we're too stupid -- and that he has enough control over the information pipeline, that he can maintain the lie.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:09:44 AM by Bean Bag » Logged

409.
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.844 seconds with 22 queries.