New Jack Rieley Interview!

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I care because I have a degree of integrity: call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I'd warm to the idea of a proven liar directing my day-to-day affairs and guiding my long-term prospects.

So would you rather the group had never hired him at all?

Publicist, yes... lyricist, yes... manager, no.

Very good answer. However, as we can't rewrite history and as he was their publicist/lyricist/manager, would you say that the creative and commercial results of his being their publicist and lyricist/co-songwriter compensated for his failings as a manager? Was it worth it, in terms of what we have as a result of his period with the band?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I care because I have a degree of integrity: call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I'd warm to the idea of a proven liar directing my day-to-day affairs and guiding my long-term prospects.

So would you rather the group had never hired him at all?

Publicist, yes... lyricist, yes... manager, no.

Very good answer. However, as we can't rewrite history and as he was their publicist/lyricist/manager, would you say that the creative and commercial results of his being their publicist and lyricist/co-songwriter compensated for his failings as a manager? Was it worth it, in terms of what we have as a result of his period with the band?

Viewed overall... no, because his actions made it impossible for him to stay and complete his gameplan (if indeed he had one). Hoist by his own petard.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he exaggerated on his CV? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

It's time for you to meditate...

Why? For successfully arguing my point?

There's a fine line between arguing and ranting...

It's called being passionate about what I believe in, in particular when it comes to my favourite band. If you disagree with anything I've said, argue back. Don't just be flippant, that's pointless, lazy and lame.

I think your arguments about Rieley are lacking in nuance, and you are being too quick to dismiss anything that might complicate your view of him as false allegations, or, when you can no longer argue this, irrelevant.

Even though I think that the Rieley era albums are weaker on the whole than any of their studio albums betweenSurfet Girl and Sunflower.  Is that Rieley's fault?  No, I think it's pretty clearly because of Brian's declining involvement in the band, which was starting well before Rieley's arrival.  Indeed, the fact that the albums are as good as they are is kind of remarkable.  But I don't think Rieley deserves full credit either for this or for their change in sales.  Remember, it was VDP who suggested adding "Surf's Up" to that album and who came to the rescue with "Sail On, Sailor" when Warner didn't want to release Holland.  That's not to say that Rieley deserves no credit, but that there is more going on at this time than Rieley just coming to the band's rescue.

Regarding his inflated CV, I cannot agree with you that it doesn't matter.  Even if I shared the view that Rieley's presence did great things for the band artistically, the fact that his lying on the CV and later bluffing that got another (honest) employee fired is unethical, plain and simple.  The fact that he has been so loose with facts in the past also means we should perhaps take his account of things with a grain of salt.

Tell you what, read the interview, then see what you think. If you've already decided anything he says cannot be trusted then the interview probably won't change your mind - but then of course you'd just be being as stubborn in your opinion as you say I am, only with the opposite viewpoint.

Personally, I don't think the Rieley-era albums are weak, I certainly don't think they're considerably weaker than previous albums. Perhaps that's really what it comes down too: those who really love the early '70's albums are generally going to be more favorable towards Rieley than those who don't particularly rate them. Certainly looking back through the previous posts and posters on this thread that theory holds water.

[Smilin Ed H]

The guys had already offered Bruce's spot to Billy Hinsche and one of The Cowsills prior to Jack joining. Clearly Bruce being pushed out was not solely down to Rieley's doing.

And BTW, the quote from Dennis criticizing Bruce for writing solo based material over more band orientated stuff is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't want to bash Bruce or his output, but there are quotes from Dennis and Mike around the time Bruce left that imply they weren't too upset. Of course, he does still appear on Holland. And you're right, there had been an attempt to replace him with Billy Hinsche earlier (at Carl's instigation?).

Whatever the commerciality of the Rieley era, I treasure the albums as the last time the band created solidly good music, as opposed to the Brian-led Love You and the piecemeal stuff of LA.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I care because I have a degree of integrity: call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I'd warm to the idea of a proven liar directing my day-to-day affairs and guiding my long-term prospects.

So would you rather the group had never hired him at all?

Publicist, yes... lyricist, yes... manager, no.

Very good answer. However, as we can't rewrite history and as he was their publicist/lyricist/manager, would you say that the creative and commercial results of his being their publicist and lyricist/co-songwriter compensated for his failings as a manager? Was it worth it, in terms of what we have as a result of his period with the band?

Viewed overall... no, because his actions made it impossible for him to stay and complete his gameplan (if indeed he had one). Hoist by his own petard.

Wow, well I guess I don't agree with you there Andrew. Short of Rieley murdering someone, I value his songwriting contributions to the band too highly to think his other actions - no matter how questionable - weren't worth the results. He may well have been hoist by his own petard - he also co-wrote Trader. And hell, within a few years we'd have Steve Love and Eugene Landy and Brian's Back etc. - the horror! The horror! Whatever the circumstances of Rieley's departure, it was all downhill once he left... Whether that was because of his absence or just a coincidence, I don't really see how it can be denied. 

[Disney Boy (1985)]

The guys had already offered Bruce's spot to Billy Hinsche and one of The Cowsills prior to Jack joining. Clearly Bruce being pushed out was not solely down to Rieley's doing.

And BTW, the quote from Dennis criticizing Bruce for writing solo based material over more band orientated stuff is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't want to bash Bruce or his output, but there are quotes from Dennis and Mike around the time Bruce left that imply they weren't too upset. Of course, he does still appear on Holland. And you're right, there had been an attempt to replace him with Billy Hinsche earlier (at Carl's instigation?).

Whatever the commerciality of the Rieley era, I treasure the albums as the last time the band created solidly good music, as opposed to the Brian-led Love You and the piecemeal stuff of LA.

Billy Hinsche incidentally is credited in Record Collector as having arranged the interview.
 

[Nicko1234]

It's called being passionate about what I believe in, in particular when it comes to my favourite band. If you disagree with anything I've said, argue back. Don't just be flippant, that's pointless, lazy and lame.

My take on the guy...

He did a good job with their image and his lyrics (while nonsensical) were ambitious and they suited the music. He was a good influence on them in many ways.

However, as a manager there were definite faults...

CATP is a mess as an album. Now before anyone rushes to write a vitriolic reply, I like several of the songs on this LP. But it's not really an album. It's 2 Brian songs, 2 TM songs (albeit one co-written by Brian), 2 Dennis songs and 2 Flame songs. Blondie has talked about how it was recorded in very piecemeal fashion and it shows on the record. This wasn't a well managed set of sessions.

And Holland was a debacle. The album itself is excellent but if We Got Love had been included ahead of Sail on Sailor then that would apply a lot less. Plus they had to finish it off at home. They were right to fire him after this.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

It's called being passionate about what I believe in, in particular when it comes to my favourite band. If you disagree with anything I've said, argue back. Don't just be flippant, that's pointless, lazy and lame.

My take on the guy...

He did a good job with their image and his lyrics (while nonsensical) were ambitious and they suited the music. He was a good influence on them in many ways.

However, as a manager there were definite faults...

CATP is a mess as an album. Now before anyone rushes to write a vitriolic reply, I like several of the songs on this LP. But it's not really an album. It's 2 Brian songs, 2 TM songs (albeit one co-written by Brian), 2 Dennis songs and 2 Flame songs. Blondie has talked about how it was recorded in very piecemeal fashion and it shows on the record. This wasn't a well managed set of sessions.

And Holland was a debacle. The album itself is excellent but if We Got Love had been included ahead of Sail on Sailor then that would apply a lot less. Plus they had to finish it off at home. They were right to fire him after this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Holland came out at the very beginning of 1973 (January), whereas Rieley was still their manager when In Concert was released later in the year, therefore he wasn't sacked immediately after the Holland trip. If I'm wrong correct me.

Also, while CATP is certainly not a very well-rounded album - Rieley himself calls it a "doorstop" (read the interview!) - Holland is an excellent album. Sail On Sailor is a great song, yes, but so is Trader. And California. And Steamboat. And Funky Pretty. And Leaving This Town. And - if we're going to talk unreleased tracks - Carry Me Home.

I'd say you've somewhat reinforced my earlier argument that those who aren't particularly passionate about the early '70's albums don't value Rieley as highly as those who love 'em.

[silodweller]

To get back to that "swoosh" sound that apparently resembles the sound of an orgasm - I don't doubt this point as I was once told it does seem to sound like an overwhelming swooooosh, I mean according to a particular woman... 
Anyway, I'm trailing off here...  The only "swoosh" sound I can hear is the one that actually starts the song itself before the piano starts and then there IS another smaller one (could have at least gone for a multiple here really, don't you think?) beginning around 2:43 and ending at 2:46.
These are the only ones that I would think mister Reiley could be thinking of unless of course he's just making it all up? 

[Cabinessenceking]

Can those arguing against Jack Rieley explain why you have a negative opinion of him and why you point out  'integrity' when you see this scoundrel Jack Rieley perhaps saved the band yet the utterly incompetant Steve Love got hired through nepotism to occupy the very same shoes only a few years later?

Jack has results to show for and he is by far the best remembered manager, both for his faked credentials and the resulting brilliance of the band under his management.

Steve Love cannot hold a candle to any of this. He was simply Mike's yes man. Look how that turned out.

Integrity has never been the name of this band so arguing for a manager with integrity is a rather futile argument imo.
I respect Jack for what he did to this group. I would probably not be a fan without the 1971-1974 material.

[filledeplage]

It's called being passionate about what I believe in, in particular when it comes to my favourite band. If you disagree with anything I've said, argue back. Don't just be flippant, that's pointless, lazy and lame.

My take on the guy...
He did a good job with their image and his lyrics (while nonsensical) were ambitious and they suited the music. He was a good influence on them in many ways.

However, as a manager there were definite faults...

CATP is a mess as an album. Now before anyone rushes to write a vitriolic reply, I like several of the songs on this LP. But it's not really an album. It's 2 Brian songs, 2 TM songs (albeit one co-written by Brian), 2 Dennis songs and 2 Flame songs. Blondie has talked about how it was recorded in very piecemeal fashion and it shows on the record. This wasn't a well managed set of sessions.

And Holland was a debacle. The album itself is excellent but if We Got Love had been included ahead of Sail on Sailor then that would apply a lot less. Plus they had to finish it off at home. They were right to fire him after this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Holland came out at the very beginning of 1973 (January), whereas Rieley was still their manager when In Concert was released later in the year, therefore he wasn't sacked immediately after the Holland trip. If I'm wrong correct me.

Also, while CATP is certainly not a very well-rounded album - Rieley himself calls it a "doorstop" (read the interview!) - Holland is an excellent album. Sail On Sailor is a great song, yes, but so is Trader. And California. And Steamboat. And Funky Pretty. And Leaving This Town. And - if we're going to talk unreleased tracks - Carry Me Home.

I'd say you've somewhat reinforced my earlier argument that those who aren't particularly passionate about the early '70's albums don't value Rieley as highly as those who love 'em.

CATP - is sort of an "addendum" to Holland, notwithstanding the release dates.  I find it wholly and inextricably connected to Holland as one work.  But, Jack's tenure needs to be taken "in context" with the block-building which preceded it.  Around the time of the Eye magazine article and cover, fm radio was overtaking the scene in the colleges, and just generally.

People were ripping out the old AM radios in cars, in favor of AM-FM, to get this music.  It was a changing music industry delivery model.  Jack seems to have come on board, however he did, riding that fm wave, that was already in the mix.

To elevate Jack's involvement, and credit him, as is going on, post the losses of Carl and Dennis, not here to enlighten the discussion, diminishes their creative contributions. Jack didn't do it by himself, in isolation.  And, the advent of the 8-track that people could get installed in their cars, made the music delightfully portable.  Holland was my first 8 track for my car.  (it is now in the time capsule of my post-grad school) I loved not being at the mercy and discretion of a DJ for what I listened to.

That era made composers out of Carl and Dennis, even if it was probably not a long term thing for either.  It has a certain endearing roughness and individuality.  Was Jack acting as a Wilson guru? I don't know. But, the era requires a hard look, both at the players, and what was going on on many levels, and not just a snapshot.  The BB's were in a growth spurt, regardless of who was promoting them.  They were in a very late 60-ish, early 70-ish mode.

[Sheriff John Stone]

It would've been fascinating to see how Jack Rieley would've handled Brian's addiction/illness/retreat in 1975-76. Would've he replaced Blondie and Ricky as permanent members and/or who would've been the drummer and guitar player live? Student demonstrations were fleeting, Endless Summer and the bicentennial were right up The Beach Boys' alley, and Dennis Wilson was planning a solo album. It's interesting to speculate how Jack would've handled those situations.

[Moon Dawg]

And... looking at it dispassionately, the career turnaround wasn't that great, was it ? Albums that hit #29, #50, #36 and #25... nothing even close to a Top 40 single... ?

  Better than #126, #153, #68 and #151!

 

[runnersdialzero]

He did a good job with their image and his lyrics (while nonsensical) were ambitious and they suited the music. He was a good influence on them in many ways.

Nonsensical?

[Disney Boy (1985)]

And... looking at it dispassionately, the career turnaround wasn't that great, was it ? Albums that hit #29, #50, #36 and #25... nothing even close to a Top 40 single... ?

  Better than #126, #153, #68 and #151!

 

Exactly. They went from #153 to #29 in the space of one album which is an enormous leap. Sure CATP didn't sell well, but Holland by some accounts outsold Surf's Up and In Concert was their best-selling in years. I'd say that's a pretty solid turnaround.

Anyway, how about we keep the thread on topic and talk about the interview itself.

[filledeplage]

And... looking at it dispassionately, the career turnaround wasn't that great, was it ? Albums that hit #29, #50, #36 and #25... nothing even close to a Top 40 single... ?

  Better than #126, #153, #68 and #151!  

Exactly. They went from #153 to #29 in the space of one album which is an enormous leap. Sure CATP didn't sell well, but Holland by some accounts outsold Surf's Up and In Concert was their best-selling in years. I'd say that's a pretty solid turnaround.

Anyway, how about we keep the thread on topic and talk about the interview itself.

Disney Boy 1985 - I think it might be important to remember with this era, that Sail on Sailor was released twice, first in 1973, then in 1975, and at a time when Chicago collaboration was becoming more important with Wishin' You Were Here (recorded in 1974) which was a Number One single, in December of 1974. 

There is stuff that is overlapping in terms of time. The BB in Concert handles the live versions of six songs from CATP/Holland work.  Overall I think is still their best live work. It is unhurried, dramatic and artfully superior interpretations of Leaving This Town, The Trader, Funky Pretty, Marcella (the single prior to SOS) and the non-included We Got Love, and of course, Sail on Sailor.  And, the best Don't Worry Baby, ever.

But, reminds me of the way Brian does his live shows; half themed work, half classics.  Except, Brian does the themed work together, and then the classics pre and post "themed work" sets. 

And, as is the combo of 1972 work, the running order isn't done as a live show, but has a very life feel to it.  It never comes out of the old 6-pack. (CD)

[joe_blow]

And... looking at it dispassionately, the career turnaround wasn't that great, was it ? Albums that hit #29, #50, #36 and #25... nothing even close to a Top 40 single... ?

  Better than #126, #153, #68 and #151!

 

Exactly. They went from #153 to #29 in the space of one album which is an enormous leap. Sure CATP didn't sell well, but Holland by some accounts outsold Surf's Up and In Concert was their best-selling in years. I'd say that's a pretty solid turnaround.

Anyway, how about we keep the thread on topic and talk about the interview itself.

In Concert maybe did sell well but its Gold status was more to do with it being a double album and package sold counting as 2 units. In other words it only needed to sell 250,000 units to achieve Gold status while Holland would have needed to sell 500,000.

[drbeachboy]

And, I'd be hard pressed to believe one who "inflated" his résume.  I find it a character flaw. Sorry, if that is harsh.

I'd only fault him if he hadn't gotten good results. He did, so who cares if he was full of sh*t in terms of credentials? I don't see what it really has to do with the music, anyway.

The question really is, would you really want to hire someone who lies about their credentials? While things certainly turned out OK in the short term, had he been inept, it could have been an entirely different story. Had I been Carl and found that out, I would have fired him on the spot.

And then you'd have deprived us of CATP, Holland, Mt Vernon & Fairway, In Concert, Ricky and Blondie and the groups most satisfying period as a live band. Fortunately, Carl and the Boys weren't so nauseatingly noble and were presumably prepared to overlook Rieley's alleged flaws. Or perhaps they didn't give a sh*t, and rightly so, because he got incredible results for the band and drastically improved their critical and commercial standing.
 

Let's put it like this, I hate "lies, and the lying liars that tell them", to quote a book title. I don't care what results he was able to attain. You are looking at this in hindsight, so it is fine to say what you posted here. What if he had been a guy like Manson? Also, if he lied about his credentials, what else was he capable of lying about? He could have stole money, etc. 

[runnersdialzero]

If you lie, you're no better than Charles Manson.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Let's put it like this, I hate "lies, and the lying liars that tell them",

So you never lie?

Liar!

[Phoenix]

Speaking of Manson, aren't the writing credits on "Never Learn Not to Love" a lie? 

I kid!  I kid!

 

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I'm honest enough to admit that I lie on a regular basis. To save people's feelings, to save face, to garner pity, to manipulate. We all do.

A completely honest person would be hated and reviled.

[drbeachboy]

Let's put it like this, I hate "lies, and the lying liars that tell them",

So you never lie?

Liar!

I never said that, though, I never lied about my credentials when interviewing for jobs. You people have no scruples if you think what Jack did was OK. No matter the outcome, what he did was dishonest.

[bgas]

Let's put it like this, I hate "lies, and the lying liars that tell them",

So you never lie?

Liar!

I never said that, though, I never lied about my credentials when interviewing for jobs. You people have no scruples if you think what Jack did was OK. No matter the outcome, what he did was dishonest.

It was a dishonest way to get the job, but he did a great job once he had it; I don't see the problem here. As has been similarly said before, it's not like he was a serial killer; he simply inflated his credentials, then ran with it once getting the job.
It happens frewquently, i'm sure; then and now. while it's not "right", the results were good

[Iron Horse-Apples]

You people have no scruples if you think what Jack did was OK.

I do have scruples, but they're different to yours.

Someone tells a lie to get a job in a hospital and people end up dead - not good

Someone lies about not being on the sex offenders list and gets a job with children - doesn't bear thinking about

Someone lies about credentials. Gets job with top rock act, promises results which, are to a great extent achieved - fine by me.