New Jack Rieley Interview!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Whatever, this is starting to derail and it shouldn't get personal with another good poster.  The point is Rieley told a whopper and when found out he had to go (or that is the excuse they used, which was a valid one). And you were still hilarious in the Mike Love thread.

In fact, when the Peabody lie (and it wasn't the only one) was uncovered and presented to the band, Jack managed to bluff out the situation and the person who got fired was the Brother employee who was asked to look into his background. Nice, huh ?

[Mike's Beard]

The guys had already offered Bruce's spot to Billy Hinsche and one of The Cowsills prior to Jack joining. Clearly Bruce being pushed out was not solely down to Rieley's doing.

And BTW, the quote from Dennis criticizing Bruce for writing solo based material over more band orientated stuff is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[filledeplage]

Whatever, this is starting to derail and it shouldn't get personal with another good poster.  The point is Rieley told a whopper and when found out he had to go (or that is the excuse they used, which was a valid one). And you were still hilarious in the Mike Love thread.

In fact, when the Peabody lie (and it wasn't the only one) was uncovered and presented to the band, Jack managed to bluff out the situation and the person who got fired was the Brother employee who was asked to look into his background. Nice, huh ?

Those who tell whoppers on a resume, tend to act in conformity with that character trait.  And, Southbay is correct that it should not get personal.  None of this discussion should ever get personal. 

Poser McBluff! 

Here's to Friday 

[Jim V.]

Whatever, I like Rieley. He was heavily involved in getting Brian to agree to release "Surf's Up" and that is good enough for me. I think we can all agree that he should be thanked for that.

And for "Feel Flows" and "The Trader" and "Sail On, Sailor" and "Funky Pretty" and helping them figure out that they could be looked at as artists. It's not a coincidence that their first album after his hiring, Surf's Up, was their most popular in years.

[Shady]

Fantastic lyricist, that's all that really needs to be said.

As for Bruce, he never fit in with The Beach Boys, it's a damn shame he ever returned.

[Aum Bop Diddit]

Con men, raconteurs, glad-handers as Rock and Roll band managers?  Perish the thought!

The dude deserves his props.  Personally even at the time I thought the "Student Demonstration Time" kind of  stuff was a little over the top, but there is no question he helped direct the guys towards relevance and being noticed after the commercial disaster of "Sunflower" (an overall much better album than "Surf's Up" but nowhere near in terms of press and sales).  No way to know, but it's not hard to imagine the BBs ceasing to be without him.

As for Bruce, not being able to fit into "the layered wonder" sounds like grounds for dismissal to me.

[monicker]

I completely lied to get what has been the best and most valuable job i’ve ever had (this is “entertainment” related, not something like law, or, Jesus, medicine). I made up credentials, i had a friend pose as a former boss, etc. I did it because i was positive i would be great for the job and that the only way i could prove to the small company that i could be great was by getting a foot in, which was only possible with the illusion that i was “qualified.” And i was right. I kept moving up and eventually became my boss’ “right hand man.” He loved and valued the work i did and appreciated me as an employee. It was very evident. And i learned a great deal at that job, invaluable experience. It was kind of like going to college free. And years later, while still at the job, i told my boss about lying to get the job. He laughed and said “well, i guess i’m glad you did.”

[Rocky Raccoon]

Yeah, I don't see what's wrong with stretching the truth to get a job, as long as you're not hiding criminal activity and nobody gets hurt because of it, I don't see how that's much of a problem. 

Managing one of the most famous bands in the world could not have been an easy job to get but it seems like Jack did everything he could to get it and from what I can tell, he did a pretty good job.  He was probably at least Brian's best asset during the '71-73 period.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Disney Boy (1985), thanks for the heads up; I'll try to get a hold of the interview.

I thought I read years ago in some book, and correct me if I'm mis-remembering, but I thought Rieley was fired after Holland ultimately turned into a financial debacle. Eventually, Carl was made aware of the outrageous costs in recording Holland with the traveling expenses, the rent paid for houses they lived in, the assembling and dissembling of the studio, and after all of that, the album had to be finished back in the states. Firing Rieley because of that - $$$$$$$$$ - is more in line with The Beach Boys' practices than the character issue. I mean, take a close look at the character(s) in The Beach Boys.... .

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Hite Morgan: Nice singing boys, but do you guys have any original material?

Dennis: Yes, we've got a song about surfing

[Mike's Beard]

Hite Morgan: Nice singing boys, but do you guys have any original material?

Dennis: Yes, we've got a song about surfing

Yes, Dennis should have been kicked out of the band on the spot the lying little sh*t.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

And, I'd be hard pressed to believe one who "inflated" his résume.  I find it a character flaw. Sorry, if that is harsh.

I'd only fault him if he hadn't gotten good results. He did, so who cares if he was full of sh*t in terms of credentials? I don't see what it really has to do with the music, anyway.

The question really is, would you really want to hire someone who lies about their credentials? While things certainly turned out OK in the short term, had he been inept, it could have been an entirely different story. Had I been Carl and found that out, I would have fired him on the spot.

And then you'd have deprived us of CATP, Holland, Mt Vernon & Fairway, In Concert, Ricky and Blondie and the groups most satisfying period as a live band. Fortunately, Carl and the Boys weren't so nauseatingly noble and were presumably prepared to overlook Rieley's alleged flaws. Or perhaps they didn't give a sh*t, and rightly so, because he got incredible results for the band and drastically improved their critical and commercial standing.
 

[Cabinessenceking]

Beach Boys Logic:

Jack Reiley is a fraud? Get rid of him!
proceeds to hire Mike Love's brother

[Andrew G. Doe]

And, I'd be hard pressed to believe one who "inflated" his résume.  I find it a character flaw. Sorry, if that is harsh.

I'd only fault him if he hadn't gotten good results. He did, so who cares if he was full of sh*t in terms of credentials? I don't see what it really has to do with the music, anyway.

The question really is, would you really want to hire someone who lies about their credentials? While things certainly turned out OK in the short term, had he been inept, it could have been an entirely different story. Had I been Carl and found that out, I would have fired him on the spot.

And then you'd have deprived us of CATP, Holland, Mt Vernon & Fairway, In Concert, Ricky and Blondie and the groups most satisfying period as a live band. Fortunately, Carl and the Boys weren't so nauseatingly noble and were presumably prepared to overlook Rieley's alleged flaws. Or perhaps they didn't give a sh*t, and rightly so, because he got incredible results for the band and drastically improved their critical and commercial standing.
 

Whatever the outcome, the "flaws" are not "alleged", they are very real: JFR claimed to have worked in the Puerto Rico bureau of NBC. They didn't have one back then, nor do the company have any record of him working for them in any capacity whatsoever. He claimed to have won a Peabody Award. He didn't. Them's not allegations, them,s facts.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

There's a great interview with Jack Rieley in the latest Record Collector magazine, which reinforces my own personal belief that he was a fantastically positive influence on the group.

The opening section begins: "[Rieley] penned extraordinary songs with all three Wilson brothers; his dense, evocative and poetic lyricism fuelled their robust creativity via a raft of the band's most impressive songs".

Of CATP Rieley says: "It didn't sell, but it's a triumph artistically. Dennis came up with two really good songs; Cuddle Up is wonderful".

Feel Flows: "There's a point in the song, you hear a synth and then there's a "swoosh" sound.... a number of girls told Carl and I that was the closet they'd heard to the sound that would go with an orgasm".

You Need A Mess Of Help: "That's my favourite".

On Bruce Johnston: "...the Wilsons made it clear that they didn't feel comfortable with Bruce Johnston and asked me to let him go. Bruce is a fabulous composer and an outstanding singer but, back then, he didn't fit in with the layered wonder The Beach Boys were becoming".  

Disney Boy 1985 - Jack went from radio DJ, who appears to have interviewed Brian, Mike and Bruce in 1970, (from bellagio) and ends up doing PR, then Manager (songwriter?)  Sound familiar?  

And, I'd be hard pressed to believe one who "inflated" his résume.  I find it a character flaw. Sorry, if that is harsh.

While I enjoyed his obvious affectionate regard for Dennis on the flasher interview for the movie, Forever, I'm not sure that there is credibility with the "firing" scenario. (Johnston) Carl and Dennis aren't here to support that comment.  If there were factions among the band, Jack may have used the discord to his advantage, to create a new power balance. It is the old "new broom sweeps clean" business model.

And, I'm not impressed that it was not a matter of "too many chefs in the kitchen."  Or, that during that era, the Boys were not going in a more progressive direction, anyway, and that he was in the "right place at the right time." They had to have been influenced by witnessing Prague Spring, in 1968, or  with Carl's Conscientious Objector status, and were growing intellectually, as I think nothing "schools" a person as much as travel.  It gives one, what a book or professor, never can.  JMHO

Even though Jack admits that CATP didn't do well charting, it IS a true treasure, I agree with him, that has grown with appreciation for it's artfulness.  (I just lump it with Holland, anyway, as a sort of double LP - always have! )  I do also agree that even stuff that doesn't chart can grow inexorably into greatness.

I suggest you read the interview first, then comment. Although exactly what is wrong with going from being a radio DJ to a manager, as long as the results are positive (which they were)? You got something against DJ's? Are they forbidden from career advancement?

"And, I'd be hard pressed to believe one who "inflated" his résume.  I find it a character flaw. Sorry, if that is harsh." What on earth is that a response too? And why would I care if you thought Rieley "inflated" his resume?

Furthermore, assuming you're right and the band were so wimpy Rieley could do whatever he liked - including sack members of the band - and thus it was Rieley who was solely behind Johnston being booted out, with the aim being to balance the group in favour of the Wilson brothers... erm, well: GOOD! That's a good thing. He saw that the Wilson brothers were by far the most talented members of the group and acted accordingly. How is that a bad thing? I find it so odd that Rieley's detractors always site as negative things which are actually positives...

But again, read the interview (in which he's nice about Mike and Al btw) and then comment.

Disney Boy 1985 - I stood back and looked at the whole picture, not picking a faction, but just looking at the situation. I think. You seem to have chosen, by saying that it was a "good thing" - and I've read many places where it was discovered that the resume was inflated ( which is easily discoverable these days online.)  Neither of us was there, (I wasn't for sure.) In the end, Johnston got a Grammy, and sang on most of the album work anyway.  It seemed to work for him, and they asked him to return. It is common in business for a new boss, to get rid of anyone more knowledgeable than them.  Johnston had produced stuff since he was in his teens.  Bosses always want to be the smartest. Sometimes, they aren't.

No one suggested a "glass ceiling" for DJ's.  

But, I feel that what happened to the Boys, was less about Jack, and more about the band members, growing from their collective work and other influences.  Having seen them, in concert, throughout that era, in college and grad school, and listening to all of their work, and seeing their personal growth, makes me think that growing into the job, around 10 years into their careers gave them new creative confidence.  

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he told fibs on his CV 40 years ago? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

[Disney Boy (1985)]

And, I'd be hard pressed to believe one who "inflated" his résume.  I find it a character flaw. Sorry, if that is harsh.

I'd only fault him if he hadn't gotten good results. He did, so who cares if he was full of sh*t in terms of credentials? I don't see what it really has to do with the music, anyway.

The question really is, would you really want to hire someone who lies about their credentials? While things certainly turned out OK in the short term, had he been inept, it could have been an entirely different story. Had I been Carl and found that out, I would have fired him on the spot.

And then you'd have deprived us of CATP, Holland, Mt Vernon & Fairway, In Concert, Ricky and Blondie and the groups most satisfying period as a live band. Fortunately, Carl and the Boys weren't so nauseatingly noble and were presumably prepared to overlook Rieley's alleged flaws. Or perhaps they didn't give a sh*t, and rightly so, because he got incredible results for the band and drastically improved their critical and commercial standing.
 

Whatever the outcome, the "flaws" are not "alleged", they are very real: JFR claimed to have worked in the Puerto Rico bureau of NBC. They didn't have one back then, nor do the company have any record of him working for them in any capacity whatsoever. He claimed to have won a Peabody Award. He didn't. Them's not allegations, them,s facts.

But so what? This is Rock and Roll, not HSBC. Lying about a Peabody Award? It ain't exactly Alan Klein is it.

Personally I don't give a sh*t if he told him he'd shagged Marilyn Monroe and been to the moon - honestly, what does it matter? At least three of the people he told these lies too regularly took illegal drugs (the production and distribution of which caused/causes untold misery and death across the globe)  - which do you think the authorities would say was the lesser crime?

I just do not understand why, when faced with Surf's Up, CATP, Holland, In Concert and a complete career/reputation turnaround, we're supposed to give two shits about a dishonest CV....?

WHO CARES? WHY DO YOU CARE?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I care because I have a degree of integrity: call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I'd warm to the idea of a proven liar directing my day-to-day affairs and guiding my long-term prospects.

And... looking at it dispassionately, the career turnaround wasn't that great, was it ? Albums that hit #29, #50, #36 and #25... nothing even close to a Top 40 single...  a financial black hole called Holland. And what kind of hip and happening manager agrees to have the new album - crucial in maintaining and increasing the momentum generated by Surf's Up - released in tandem with a six-year-old catalog item ?

[Nicko1234]

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he exaggerated on his CV? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

It's time for you to meditate...

[Disney Boy (1985)]

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he exaggerated on his CV? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

It's time for you to meditate...

Why? For successfully arguing my point?

[Nicko1234]

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he exaggerated on his CV? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

It's time for you to meditate...

Why? For successfully arguing my point?

There's a fine line between arguing and ranting...

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I care because I have a degree of integrity: call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I'd warm to the idea of a proven liar directing my day-to-day affairs and guiding my long-term prospects.

So would you rather the group had never hired him at all?

[Disney Boy (1985)]

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he exaggerated on his CV? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

It's time for you to meditate...

Why? For successfully arguing my point?

There's a fine line between arguing and ranting...

It's called being passionate about what I believe in, in particular when it comes to my favourite band. If you disagree with anything I've said, argue back. Don't just be flippant, that's pointless, lazy and lame.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I care because I have a degree of integrity: call me old-fashioned, but I'm not sure I'd warm to the idea of a proven liar directing my day-to-day affairs and guiding my long-term prospects.

So would you rather the group had never hired him at all?

Publicist, yes... lyricist, yes... manager, no.

[Mike's Beard]

Rieley was a godsend in turning their image around and a valued collaborator and I would have kept him on in that capacity reguardless, but there's no way I would have allowed him to handle my finances once his lies came out.*





*Yeah, Steve Love, I know.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

No, I think you're wrong - Rieley clearly played a big part in their early-'70's creative turnabout and to try to claim otherwise is just bizarre.

Re Johnston's Grammy: "In the end, Johnston got a Grammy". Yes he did, correct. He won it for an appalling lump of Barry Manilow schmaltz. Seriously, you rate I Write The Songs above Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader and Funky Pretty just because it won a Grammy? If so, Jesus Wept... If not, what exactly is your point?

If your point is that Johnston had talent and therefore shouldn't have gone, well yes he did have talent, as Rieley himself clearly says in the new interview. But did that talent fit in with the group's evolving image at the time? Rieley thought not, and clearly key sections of the group felt the same. For a hack former-DJ he sure must have damn good persuasive talents if he convinced the group to boot out Bruce against their wishes! Still, I personally am glad he/they did - CATP with Endless Harmony on it?? No thanks!

The problem with these arguments people give against Rieley is that they always seem to rest on the Beach Boys (a band containing Dennis Wilson and Mike Love) being a bunch of frightened kittens who did anything and everything Rileey told them too. Of course this is nonsense! Johnston left the group because members of the band wanted him out. Blondie and Ricky joined the group because members of the band wanted them in. They made an album in Holland because members of the group wanted to do so. Did Rieley play a part in all of the above? Of course, and the creative results were wonderful.

Do I think CATP is better than Sunflower? No. But another Sunflower would've almost certainly killed the group off. Seriously, you think the record company would have put up with another album missing the Top 150? Rieley was a Godsend and it just plain baffles me the resentment some fans feel towards him because... because what? Because he exaggerated on his CV? Gee, what a monster!

In fact, hey, you know what, actually I'm sold! I wish Marcella, Steamboat, Trader, etc. never existed just so we and the group could all have been spared this hateful creature's rotten influence... I'm going to burn my vinyl copy of Holland right now!    

It's time for you to meditate...

Why? For successfully arguing my point?

There's a fine line between arguing and ranting...

It's called being passionate about what I believe in, in particular when it comes to my favourite band. If you disagree with anything I've said, argue back. Don't just be flippant, that's pointless, lazy and lame.

I think your arguments about Rieley are lacking in nuance, and you are being too quick to dismiss anything that might complicate your view of him as false allegations, or, when you can no longer argue this, irrelevant.

Even though I think that the Rieley era albums are weaker on the whole than any of their studio albums betweenSurfet Girl and Sunflower.  Is that Rieley's fault?  No, I think it's pretty clearly because of Brian's declining involvement in the band, which was starting well before Rieley's arrival.  Indeed, the fact that the albums are as good as they are is kind of remarkable.  But I don't think Rieley deserves full credit either for this or for their change in sales.  Remember, it was VDP who suggested adding "Surf's Up" to that album and who came to the rescue with "Sail On, Sailor" when Warner didn't want to release Holland.  That's not to say that Rieley deserves no credit, but that there is more going on at this time than Rieley just coming to the band's rescue.

Regarding his inflated CV, I cannot agree with you that it doesn't matter.  Even if I shared the view that Rieley's presence did great things for the band artistically, the fact that his lying on the CV and later bluffing that got another (honest) employee fired is unethical, plain and simple.  The fact that he has been so loose with facts in the past also means we should perhaps take his account of things with a grain of salt.