"Helter Skelter" lyric in "Looking Back With Love" (the song)

[CenturyDeprived]

Was the "Helter Skelter" lyric in "Looking Back With Love" (the song) meant as a reference to the Manson killings?

And if so, I wonder if this was an indirect dig against Dennis, who at this point was already in super-bad shape?  Dennis and Mike were certainly on the worst of terms then. Luckily, if it was an indirect dig against Dennis, few people would've even heard the song at the time, since the album sold so poorly.

And if it wasn't intended a dig against Dennis, and was simply innocently referencing The Beatles song, it becomes a giant facepalm to think that the Lovester would include a lyric which could harken back to the most infamous connection the BBs ever had (not that the other lyrics in this song aren't also facepalm-worthy). Did it not cross his mind?

I sorta kinda like parts of the song in a guilty pleasure kind of way. (The album has a *few* ok moments).

Side note: It was shocking and hilarious to see Brian mention the album in the 1989 Beach Boys TV show campfire scene. 

[Nicko1234]

Mike didn't write that song.

[bluesno1fann]

I sorta kinda like parts of the song in a guilty pleasure kind of way. (The album has a *few* ok moments).

While i admittedly don't have the guts to listen to the whole album, other than the lyrics the title track is quite good. In fact, i really like the music to the title track. Sadly the lyrics destroy the song...

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Mike didn't write that song.

CenturyDeprived didn't say he did. He just said Mike included the lyric.

[Nicko1234]

CenturyDeprived didn't say he did. He just said Mike included the lyric.

Do you really have to argue about everything? 

Why would those writers make a reference to the Manson killings?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

CenturyDeprived didn't say he did. He just said Mike included the lyric.

Do you really have to argue about everything?  

Why would those writers make a reference to the Manson killings?

Just giving you a taste of what you do all the time. Teasing you.  

[Nicko1234]

Just giving you a taste of what you do all the time. Teasing you.  

No teasing on my part. Like probably everybody else I just reply to posts which I agree or disagree with. So there really is no reason why threads should be derailed.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Just giving you a taste of what you do all the time. Teasing you.  

No teasing on my part. Like probably everybody else I just reply to posts which I agree or disagree with. So there really is no reason why threads should be derailed.

Just pointed out you hadn't read his post correctly and that he didn't say Mike wrote the song.

You are welcome!  
Back on rail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

[Mike's Beard]

Well someone should have told the writers that Mods and Rockers didn't dance in the street together. They used to meet up to beat the living crap outta each other.

I'm guessing the 'Helter Skelter' lyric was a reference to the Tate/LaBianca killings, whether Mike included it out of maliciousness or not is anyone's guess.

[CenturyDeprived]

Well someone should have told the writers that Mods and Rockers didn't dance in the street together. They used to meet up to beat the living crap outta each other.

I'm guessing the 'Helter Skelter' lyric was a reference to the Tate/LaBianca killings, whether Mike included it out of maliciousness or not is anyone's guess.

I'm not certain of if Mike included it out of maliciousness or not, but just the lack of self-awareness about having a lyric which could recall the BBs and Manson is kinda mindblowing.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well someone should have told the writers that Mods and Rockers didn't dance in the street together. They used to meet up to beat the living crap outta each other.

They didn't even get it that close - the lyric as sung is "Mod rockers dancing in a Liverpool street". I'm guessing someone didn't realise that Mods and Rockers were two entirely different sets of fans... or that Mods were an overwhelmingly southern UK phenomenon. The need for a Liverpool reference is, of course, crystalline.  Essentially, that lyric was written by someone with but a fleeting notion of what the early 60s UK music scene was about

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm curious to know what people think about this in light of Mike's new book, which apparently goes on and on about Manson and Dennis, with Mike going out of his way to point out that Dennis carried around severe guilt about Manson for the rest of his life.

Being that Mike has made his feelings known about this subject, I'm trying to reconcile the thought that a person (Mike) who we now know was aware of this severe guilt his cousin carried with him, would have approved and sang a lyric - even if he apparently didn't write it - that specifically referenced this sorest of sore subjects, and released the song as his solo album's title track.

As fans, are we to shrug this off and just actually think that Mike was oblivious to what bad taste it was (even if no one noticed at a time, because next to nobody even bothered listening to the record)? "Yeah, you know that horrible specific subject which my cousin is severely wracked with guilt over? I'll just innocuously specifically mention the terrible incident in a lyric."

I don't doubt that Dennis and Mike were probably trying to outdo one another in terms of giving f*ck yous to each other at this point... I think it was a two way street... But that said, does anyone really give Mike a free pass on this, especially at this point where the book now clearly spells out Mike's thoughts about Dennis' feelings of guilt? It's just weird as hell to "happily" reference the one subject his bandmate wanted so badly to forget.

You can't make this stuff up.

[Rick5150]

I hear what your saying, but the words "helter skelter" in this song were in reference to the Age of Aquarius. Many people think that the Age of Aquarius occurred in the 20th century. Like the 5th Dimension singing that "this is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius." The origins of the phrase "Helter Skelter" go back a lot further than the Beatles and Charles Manson. I always assumed the line in the song "Aquarian Age running helter skelter" meant that the mid to late 1900's had some bizarre, wild, violent and tumultuous moments. It certainly ties in with the theme of the song a lot better than a semi-hidden personal attack of Dennis.

If he was referencing the song - well, even that makes sense as we know Mike likes to name drop other songs into his songs, so this is not unusual. He uses quotes from Jan & Dean and the Rolling Stones as well as the Beach Boys. In that particular verse, he is singing about the British Invasion and Liverpool in a song that talks about the best of times, the worst of times. The Manson killings during the era he is singing about certainly qualifies as the worst of times.

I think that people hate Mike so much that they are always looking for ulterior motives with everything he sings, says or writes. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[urbanite]

Helter skelter means America descending into an almost chaotic like state in the late 1960's, Vietnam, Manson, riots, etc.

[CenturyDeprived]

Helter skelter means America descending into an almost chaotic like state in the late 1960's, Vietnam, Manson, riots, etc.

That may be true, but I find it difficult to believe that a wordsmith like Mike, who prided himself on being hip to lyrical double meanings, and famously made a big fuss refusing to sing other previous lyrics which he felt could've potentially had undesirable connotations to the listener, would have been totally oblivious to Helter Skelter also being a Manson reference (even if only as a double meaning).  He proved that he scrutinized lyrics for double meanings, or what could be perceived by others as lyrical double meanings, with his previous actions. Why not this time? Mike's not a dummy, and he has shown that he has read between the lines.

That's where I go, "even if it wasn't initially designed as a direct reference, did it truly never cross his mind?"   Especially when he's talking about horrible events like assassinations from that same decade in the same song. IMO it's not like it's some giant reach to think that people would perhaps think of Manson with those words being sung.  The song, after all, is very specifically about good and terrible famous events from the 1960s.

I do appreciate Rick5150 and urbanite's information about the other connotations to those words, which I must confess to not having been previously aware of.  Yet when googling the Helter Skelter words, Manson is the very first Google hit that comes up   So it ain't just me - I can't be the only one for whom the words are inextricably linked to Manson. And I think it's implausible that for a guy like Mike, who to this day feels scarred by having his kids babysat by Manson girls, wouldn't have had Manson come to mind pretty quickly upon hearing those words himself; in fact, it's baffling to me to think that those words wouldn't immediately recall Manson to mind for every member of The BBs who lived through that period.

I'm less inclined to think it was some evil mastermind plot to use lyrics with a Manson connection, and more like Mike realizing - but not particularly caring - if it could bring Manson to mind or not, due to the bad blood between him and his cousin. I don't think 1981 was an era when those guys were looking out to spare each others' feelings.

[Rick5150]

Actually, I think there is a triple meaning here (the words meaning chaos, the Beatles song, and the Manson connection all fit the song) but it does not feel like a shot at Dennis. There is no denying what happened with Manson and Mike bringing it up in a non-malicious way feels innocent. I do think it was clever wordplay by Dan Parker but not a cheap shot. It was just a very dark time in that era so it was mentioned.

Recently, there was a radio station that had a motorcycle ride in honor of one of the morning DJs that passed away about a year ago (Andy Blacksmith). It became bigger than they planned and they had to cancel and reschedule at the last minute for a later date. There was a meeting where the head DJ (Greg Kretschmar) brought up his press release wording to the other DJs on the show and they were stunned at his insensitivity. Why? His opening words were going to be, (paraphrased) "We are all heartbroken to announce that the Andy Blacksmith ride has been postponed..." Greg Kretschmar could not understand why everyone was shocked at his choice of words, but once it was explained to him that since Andy Blacksmith died of heart failure while waiting for a heart transplant, it made more sense.

Sometimes the perfect words for a song or speech out of context can have an entirely different meaning once you step back and see the big picture. But it is not always intentional.

[CenturyDeprived]

Actually, I think there is a triple meaning here (the words meaning chaos, the Beatles song, and the Manson connection all fit the song) but it does not feel like a shot at Dennis. There is no denying what happened with Manson and Mike bringing it up in a non-malicious way feels innocent. I do think it was clever wordplay by Dan Parker but not a cheap shot. It was just a very dark time in that era so it was mentioned.

Recently, there was a radio station that had a motorcycle ride in honor of one of the morning DJs that passed away about a year ago (Andy Blacksmith). It became bigger than they planned and they had to cancel and reschedule at the last minute for a later date. There was a meeting where the head DJ (Greg Kretschmar) brought up his press release wording to the other DJs on the show and they were stunned at his insensitivity. Why? His opening words were going to be, (paraphrased) "We are all heartbroken to announce that the Andy Blacksmith ride has been postponed..." Greg Kretschmar could not understand why everyone was shocked at his choice of words, but once it was explained to him that since Andy Blacksmith died of heart failure while waiting for a heart transplant, it made more sense.

Sometimes the perfect words for a song or speech out of context can have an entirely different meaning once you step back and see the big picture. But it is not always intentional.

This is a fair point, Rick5150. IMO the difference here is that there was acute bad blood between Mike and Dennis at the time. The early '80s was about as bad as it ever got. I get that people can "not realize" a double meaning, but I also cannot fathom that a member of this band, who was directly impacted so much by Manson, would somehow be the last person to realize the connection - of all people, the guy whose kids were babysat by a Manson girl, and who all these years later is deeply bugged about that. That is hard for me to believe.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Considering the Liverpool lyric,  could it just be a Beatles reference?

[CenturyDeprived]

Considering the Liverpool lyric,  could it just be a Beatles reference?

I suppose so. I guess my point is less of what was the initial intended reference behind it (likely innocent), and rather if it's actually plausible that a guy personally impacted himself by Manson wouldn't have at least realized the potential for the double meaning, being that there's nobody in the history of rock who was impacted more by Manson than Mike and his bandmates. After all, this wasn't a lyric sung by someone unconnected to Manson, like Barry Gibb or something.