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Author Topic: All I Want To Do (live) - MIC  (Read 5231 times)
Dave Modny
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« on: September 07, 2013, 12:19:24 AM »

I know some other people are interested in this kind of stuff, but I was curious as to what exactly they did on the new set to get the live '68 London version of "All I Want To Do" up to snuff on MIC? Thus, I did a little comparing tonight:

As many know, there were two shows done at the London Palladium on Dec. 1, 1968. "All I Want To Do" was performed at both shows, but the story always had it that the 8-track reel ran out at the very end of the performance from the second show before it finished. This was the version that was mixed by Capitol's Bob Norberg in 1983 for the Rarities album, and it was decided to simply fade the track out. As B. Elliot noted, and I'm paraphrasing, "they originally tried to edit on the ending from the first show performance but decided the results were unacceptable." It should also be noted that the first performance was pretty ragged and shambolic. Thus, it would've been unusable as a whole on its own; The second performance was much better. Long story short...I was interested in how they managed to get a full, complete ending on the new box set version. I assumed they just did what the earlier team also attempted, and simply made an edit between the two performances. And...that's indeed exactly what they did here -- albeit a little creatively. A very lo-fi recording of the first Palladium show performance circulates, and it confirms it. There's a little piano and drum flourish at the very end of performance one that now sits at the end of this new mix of performance two. Obviously, I can't post the lo-fi file of version one here, but it is out there for the ambitious. Also obviously, and as noted, the '83 mix of version two exists on Rarities for those who want to seek it out.


However, they didn't stop there for that new mix, and here's where it gets kind of cool (to me anyway)...


For whatever reason, Carl's lead guitar fills were either never recorded on the 8-track tape for the second performance, or were unacceptable, as virtually no licks are anywhere to be found on the 1983 mix (there are some a *little* bit audible, deep in the mix). So, for the new set they flew in the isolated guitar licks from the *first* performance (where they did obviously exist AND were usable) into to this new, second performance mix -- including the solo in the middle. I verified using that lo-fi tape of the first performance, and they're exactly the same. They also do some ADT-type effects in some but not all places, so it appears delayed in both channels at times (mostly the solo and the song's ending).


In conclusion, this new mix still uses the main elements/body from the second performance but tags on the complete ending from the first performance, as well as flying-in Carl's guitar licks from it. Note: It should also be said that the lo-fi tape that circulates of version one, fades out almost as soon as the performance ends. So, there's no evidence of Bruce's "Goodnight" outro comment that is on this new mix. Yet, judging by how it all plays out, I'll assume it's authentic and from performance one as well.



So...I guess that 8-track reel really did run-out while recording? Any other observations or corrections cheerfully welcomed. Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 01:15:02 AM »

Uh, I've nothing to add, but wow - nice observations! I really enjoy reading this sort of stuff. And really nice edit on the part of those involved, too.
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 02:38:46 AM »

Hmmm, I always thought that it was Ed Carter playing lead guitar on this track  Undecided
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 03:38:33 AM »

Hmmm, I always thought that it was Ed Carter playing lead guitar on this track  Undecided

Me too. Sounds very much like his style.
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 05:48:04 AM »

Very likely Ed Carter.

I remember that on the released Live in London LP the parts of the additional players were muted in varying degrees. Horns are mostly audible and Ed Carters lead guitar on "Bluebirds...". This may have something to do with the suddenly audible guitar on "All I want to do"
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 06:42:02 AM »

Dave, thanks for your observations; I was actually just about to ask on this board if anybody knew how they managed to get a complete performance for the box set!
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 10:01:41 AM »

Hmmm, I always thought that it was Ed Carter playing lead guitar on this track  Undecided


Could be. I simply looked at Eric's setlist archive, and only Ed, Daryl and Mike Kowalski were listed as additional musicians. So, I just initially assumed it was Ed on bass for that show. Thinking about it now, it just as easily could've  been Bruce...or even Carl...on bass for some/most tracks. Right?

« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:32:22 AM by Dave Modny » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 10:14:28 AM »


I remember that on the released Live in London LP the parts of the additional players were muted in varying degrees. Horns are mostly audible and Ed Carters lead guitar on "Bluebirds...". This may have something to do with the suddenly audible guitar on "All I want to do"

In the new mix, it is indeed suddenly audible, but again, and most importantly, it's the exact same isolated guitar parts from the earlier performance. Every little subtle, improvised inflection, etc.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 11:08:07 AM »

One other thing that I was on the fence about while comparing, and which others who already have the box set can help me with...

Does that "c'mon, c'mon, c'mon baby" bit at the very end sound looped (once), or does it sound like two actually performed lines?

The reason I ask: The initial '83 mix fades abruptly before that first "cmon" line is even completed. In fact, at first listen to the "lo-fi tape" of performance one, I thought that's where the actual edit point in the new mix was made, as he did sing that "c'mon" line, once, for performance number one as well. That is, perhaps one line, or parts of one line from each performance edited together at some point. Unfortunately, the fidelity was too crappy for my admittedly aging ears for me determine if it was used in the new mix, and even then it kind of sounds subtly different to me. If it wasn't, there's only two other options: Either that second go-around of the line still exists on the 8-track tape of version two. Or, it was looped once. The other tiny option could be that they just borrowed a little bit from version one line (it really would be nice to hear the actual 8-track, and to see exactly where the tape abruptly ends).

Any thoughts? Does that repeated "c'mon" line on the new box set sound identical/repeated or not?
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 04:24:18 PM »

Hmmm, I always thought that it was Ed Carter playing lead guitar on this track  Undecided


Could be. I simply looked at Eric's setlist archive, and only Ed, Daryl and Mike Kowalski were listed as additional musicians. So, I just initially assumed it was Ed on bass for that show. Thinking about it now, it just as easily could've  been Bruce...or even Carl...on bass for some/most tracks. Right?



Until footage of the group playing All I Want To Do live surfaces, we won't know for sure. However, the Olympia 1969 footage shows that, apart from Ed Carter, Bruce was the only other musician to play bass (he's featured on six songs). That's not to say that Carl or even Al didn't strap the bass on for that particular song, but odds are that it may have been Bruce. Perhaps someone could ask him  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 02:02:00 PM »

1:55 - there's a clear edit between the two takes - the drums suddenly move to the left!
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 04:48:00 PM »

1:55 - there's a clear edit between the two takes - the drums suddenly move to the left!


There's a lot of interesting things going on right around that point. There's a background "hey" that appears at 1:47 that also *seems* to to show up again at the 1:50 mark, albeit a bit more faintly. All speculation of course, but I'm still not 100% convinced that either part or all of that "c'mon c'mon c'mon baby" line wasn't looped once -- or simply edited with the other performance's line -- for this new mix. The fact that not even a fraction of that "second-go-around" of the line was used for the '83 mix raises my suspicions all the more as to it even existing on the performance two multi  -- even though other things going on in the mix change ever-so-slightly in terms of balances and audibility (e.g. Mike's vocal seems slightly doubled by him or someone else for that second-go-around).

In any event, whatever he did, I think it's a pretty interesting mix creation from ML. Though, I'd still love to know if those original guitar parts existed in usable form for performance two, or perhaps, were simply picked up improperly to begin with? If so, why weren't they used for the '83 mix? And if they don't exist or weren't usable, it probably explains why they flew-in the ones from performance one for this new mix. Also, comparing the "lo-fi mix" of performance one to the new mix of performance two, the guitar bit at the very end seems to be edited slightly to shorten it on the new mix. While the other guitar bits throughout the song seem intact. At least, that's what's sticking out to me and my aging ears at this point ****.

I also find it a bit of a real head-scratcher that they ran out of tape to begin with. IIRC, it mentions somewhere in print that the 8-track machine (or machines) and a couple of mixers were borrowed from EMI. The audience bootleg of performance one runs around 29:45 (without Bruce's farewell), so if that's any indicator, they just barely snuck in under the wire in terms of tape for that show, and yet, they weren't so lucky for the next performance (close...but no cigar). Did they really only run one machine, not running a second for overlap? That is, assuming either 30 or 32 minutes, max, per reel. In any event, they must've learned their lesson a week later for Finsbury...lol. That show, at least as it was released, runs 34+ minutes!


**** Note: Any observations I'm making between all these different mixes/versions...are just that...observations. Certainly not infallible or foolproof. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 09:07:18 PM »

I know some other people are interested in this kind of stuff, but I was curious as to what exactly they did on the new set to get the live '68 London version of "All I Want To Do" up to snuff on MIC? Thus, I did a little comparing tonight:

As many know, there were two shows done at the London Palladium on Dec. 1, 1968. "All I Want To Do" was performed at both shows, but the story always had it that the 8-track reel ran out at the very end of the performance from the second show before it finished. This was the version that was mixed by Capitol's Bob Norberg in 1983 for the Rarities album, and it was decided to simply fade the track out. As B. Elliot noted, and I'm paraphrasing, "they originally tried to edit on the ending from the first show performance but decided the results were unacceptable." It should also be noted that the first performance was pretty ragged and shambolic. Thus, it would've been unusable as a whole on its own; The second performance was much better. Long story short...I was interested in how they managed to get a full, complete ending on the new box set version. I assumed they just did what the earlier team also attempted, and simply made an edit between the two performances. And...that's indeed exactly what they did here -- albeit a little creatively. A very lo-fi recording of the first Palladium show performance circulates, and it confirms it. There's a little piano and drum flourish at the very end of performance one that now sits at the end of this new mix of performance two. Obviously, I can't post the lo-fi file of version one here, but it is out there for the ambitious. Also obviously, and as noted, the '83 mix of version two exists on Rarities for those who want to seek it out.


However, they didn't stop there for that new mix, and here's where it gets kind of cool (to me anyway)...


For whatever reason, Carl's lead guitar fills were either never recorded on the 8-track tape for the second performance, or were unacceptable, as virtually no licks are anywhere to be found on the 1983 mix (there are some a *little* bit audible, deep in the mix). So, for the new set they flew in the isolated guitar licks from the *first* performance (where they did obviously exist AND were usable) into to this new, second performance mix -- including the solo in the middle. I verified using that lo-fi tape of the first performance, and they're exactly the same. They also do some ADT-type effects in some but not all places, so it appears delayed in both channels at times (mostly the solo and the song's ending).


In conclusion, this new mix still uses the main elements/body from the second performance but tags on the complete ending from the first performance, as well as flying-in Carl's guitar licks from it. Note: It should also be said that the lo-fi tape that circulates of version one, fades out almost as soon as the performance ends. So, there's no evidence of Bruce's "Goodnight" outro comment that is on this new mix. Yet, judging by how it all plays out, I'll assume it's authentic and from performance one as well.



So...I guess that 8-track reel really did run-out while recording? Any other observations or corrections cheerfully welcomed. Smiley

  as I see it/hear it,  (Tho I haven't listened to MIC as of yet):  
The tape ran out at the end of the First show; the second show has a complete version, albeit with the first vocals being "come let the power" part way into the song, with Mike then apologizing that they haven't really learned the song.   The song doesn't end with Bruce saying Goodnight. there's audience noise, "Thank you" Thank you very much"  then "we love you" and a bit more talking( I can't make it all out) and then it ends.  
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 09:25:17 PM »


  as I see it/hear it,  (Tho I haven't listened to MIC as of yet):  
The tape ran out at the end of the First show; the second show has a complete version, albeit with the first vocals being "come let the power" part way into the song, with Mike then apologizing that they haven't really learned the song.   The song doesn't end with Bruce saying Goodnight. there's audience noise, "Thank you" Thank you very much"  then "we love you" and a bit more talking( I can't make it all out) and then it ends.  
 I think I may have posted about this in the past in the media section?, referencing my acetates for these shows( the memory eludes me)



Thanks, Bgas!

I was simply going by BE's original notes where he referenced the first performance as being the "sloppy," complete one (i.e. the "lo-fi" one that circulates and which I also have), and with Mike's "bear with us, we hardly know it yet" comment during the song. While, conversely, noting that the second one was the "good," yet incomplete one (i.e. the one used and released back in '83).

"[It turned out to] be All I Want to Do. When we played it, we found the version from the first show was really sad. Vocally, they miss all their cues. After one verse, Mike Love says, “This is a song we really don't know yet, so bear with us.” The second show was better and that's the one we used, but you'll notice that it fades out before the end of the song. The reason for that is because while they were recording it, they actually ran out of (eight-track) tape. We tried to splice in the ending of the other version, but it was just too sloppy."


http://www.bradelliott.com/writings/rarities/live.html


I guess he may have just had it backwards then?
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 04:44:07 AM »


  as I see it/hear it,  (Tho I haven't listened to MIC as of yet):  
The tape ran out at the end of the First show; the second show has a complete version, albeit with the first vocals being "come let the power" part way into the song, with Mike then apologizing that they haven't really learned the song.   The song doesn't end with Bruce saying Goodnight. there's audience noise, "Thank you" Thank you very much"  then "we love you" and a bit more talking( I can't make it all out) and then it ends.  
 I think I may have posted about this in the past in the media section?, referencing my acetates for these shows( the memory eludes me)



Thanks, Bgas!

I was simply going by BE's original notes where he referenced the first performance as being the "sloppy," complete one (i.e. the "lo-fi" one that circulates and which I also have), and with Mike's "bear with us, we hardly know it yet" comment during the song. While, conversely, noting that the second one was the "good," yet incomplete one (i.e. the one used and released back in '83).

"[It turned out to] be All I Want to Do. When we played it, we found the version from the first show was really sad. Vocally, they miss all their cues. After one verse, Mike Love says, “This is a song we really don't know yet, so bear with us.” The second show was better and that's the one we used, but you'll notice that it fades out before the end of the song. The reason for that is because while they were recording it, they actually ran out of (eight-track) tape. We tried to splice in the ending of the other version, but it was just too sloppy."


http://www.bradelliott.com/writings/rarities/live.html


I guess he may have just had it backwards then?

Can't speak as to where BE got his info. All I can go by us what I have.
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 06:03:10 PM »


Can't speak as to where BE got his info. All I can go by us what I have. The acetates are dated 1970, and the complete show is noted as the 2nd one, while the tape (evidently) an out on the first. 



Yeah, the notes and timings on those acetates, along with your aural description, sure would seem to plead a pretty darned good case for this. I mean, the show citations for both the # 5,  30 minute acetate (with its "tape runs out" notation on the acetate itself), as well as the #6, 31 minute acetate would probably only be questionable if the person who wrote "# 5 = 1st show, # 6 = 2nd show" simply and mistakenly ordered those chronological number designations wrong on the acetates...or wrote those gig citations backwards on that outside sleeve. Which *probably* isn't the case. The fact that both shows occurred on the same day would also make it easier for someone (e.g. Brad or anyone) to accidentally flip their chronology in a description later down-the-line. Obviously, I would be interested in hearing anything else from those in the know --either way -- on this issue. I guess anything's possible at this point?

Also, the entry in the wonderful new In Concert book only gives a small hint as to which show might be which by quoting Mike Love's "Hi, to those in the cheap seats" remark from the original NME review (i.e. but not stating "first" or "second" show of the night). I have that remark on the "lo-fi, complete performance of AIWTD" tape right after Bluebirds Over The Mountain and before God Only Knows. Though, I don't know if ML recycled that remark for the other show as well?

On the other hand, assuming all the above is correct, it's amusing that the song would be so much tighter, vocal cue-wise, for the first performance. Then again, they had already been performing the song live for a few weeks, so it wasn't as if it were just the effects of a brand new performance. More like, just a bad singular performance.

Also really interesting regarding your end-of-tape comments. I'd love to know where they got Bruce's "goodnight" outro from in the new mix? It might also again emphasize just how much editing and flying-in was done to often bring things "up-to-snuff," so to speak, on these new box set mixes. Even beyond the music.
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 11:44:34 AM »


Can't speak as to where BE got his info. All I can go by us what I have. The acetates are dated 1970, and the complete show is noted as the 2nd one, while the tape (evidently) an out on the first. 



Yeah, the notes and timings on those acetates, along with your aural description, sure would seem to plead a pretty darned good case for this. I mean, the show citations for both the # 5,  30 minute acetate (with its "tape runs out" notation on the acetate itself), as well as the #6, 31 minute acetate would probably only be questionable if the person who wrote "# 5 = 1st show, # 6 = 2nd show" simply and mistakenly ordered those chronological number designations wrong on the acetates...or wrote those gig citations backwards on that outside sleeve. Which *probably* isn't the case. The fact that both shows occurred on the same day would also make it easier for someone (e.g. Brad or anyone) to accidentally flip their chronology in a description later down-the-line. Obviously, I would be interested in hearing anything else from those in the know --either way -- on this issue. I guess anything's possible at this point?

Also, the entry in the wonderful new In Concert book only gives a small hint as to which show might be which by quoting Mike Love's "Hi, to those in the cheap seats" remark from the original NME review (i.e. but not stating "first" or "second" show of the night). I have that remark on the "lo-fi, complete performance of AIWTD" tape right after Bluebirds Over The Mountain and before God Only Knows. Though, I don't know if ML recycled that remark for the other show as well?

On the other hand, assuming all the above is correct, it's amusing that the song would be so much tighter, vocal cue-wise, for the first performance. Then again, they had already been performing the song live for a few weeks, so it wasn't as if it were just the effects of a brand new performance. More like, just a bad singular performance.

Also really interesting regarding your end-of-tape comments. I'd love to know where they got Bruce's "goodnight" outro from in the new mix? It might also again emphasize just how much editing and flying-in was done to often bring things "up-to-snuff," so to speak, on these new box set mixes. Even beyond the music.


  Ahh, let's see:   
 1: Listened to both my shows in their entirety and AIWTD on MIC; the 1st show either didn't start with WIBN, or it was left off the acetate, and they still ran out of tape.
 2;   I don't thnk there's any real way of knowing which show is really the 1st/2nd unless we get input from someone that actually attended one or both shows, as I suppose it's remotely possible that the person putting these to the acetates "could" have mixed up the order.
 3; The cheap seats remark is only in the show marked 2nd. 
 4;  It would seem to me that the "Goodnite" defintely came from the 2nd show, and was then abruptly cut off, without the rest of their goodbyes.  My ears aren't good enough to tell( from my less than perfect sounding acetate) whether there was a ton of editing/fly-ins or perhaps they just cleaned it up.
 5; Listening to the ending of the complete show( marked 2nd).  the "Goodnite", followed by all the rest of their remarks, has a finality to it that doesn't make me think they're going to be doing another show after, so IMO it really was the 2nd.    I'm somewhat interested to know whether the version I have, is the same as is on the lo-fi tape. Is it also available on a CD boot for cpmparison?  (check email)   
 

 
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 07:02:10 PM »

I was able to hear the acetate recordings of the complete and incomplete version.

1) First up, the complete performance is the same as the lo-fi tape. Only difference being that the acetate version is sourced from the pro stereo mix, while the lo-fi tape is just a lousy, high generation, mono audience recording. The pro acetate mix does go on for quite a bit at the end, as well, so there's all kinds of additional outro chatter.


which leads to...


2) Bruce's "goodnight" comment is indeed simply lifted from the outro of the complete performance version, along with all the other tagged-on musical material during the edit at the end. The "goodnight" was actually always on the lo-fi audience tape as well, but it occurs just as that tape is starting to fade, so I didn't catch it.


which leads further to...


3) Now being able to clearly hear the "c'mon, c'mon, c'mon baby" line from the complete and incomplete acetate versions, I still think that singular performance of it from the incomplete performance was looped for this new mix, or perhaps, mixed *together* on that second-go-around (it's doubled on the second line of the new mix), as the complete performance version of it is sung a little choppier when listening to it by itself. Yet, the aftermath of that point in the complete version exists in this new mix (including some background "c'mons"), so the edit point is somewhere in that vicinity anyway...or slightly after. Others can decide the exact point. Again, it's only initially sung **once** for both the complete and incomplete performance but appears twice, together, in the new mix, so that's a pretty cool edit in any event (it also appears faintly, off-mic, a few bars along for one of the versions).


And...that's how they made the new mix. As also noted above, with the guitar parts flown in from the complete performance (though, with some edits, ADT, etc.). FWIW, those guitar parts are absent from the stereo acetate mix of the incomplete performance as well, so it does appear that they weren't picked up on the 8-track or usable, for whatever reason, for that performance.



Confused yet...lol?   LOL
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 08:15:14 PM »

The soundboard bootlegs of the Palladium late show and the raw recording of the Finsbury Park show - can we assume they're taken from these acetates or from copies of the tapes? Obviously the other Palladium show is an audience recording, so...
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 10:21:31 PM »

Is there a thread where you listed all of these?
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2013, 10:54:14 PM »

The soundboard bootlegs of the Palladium late show and the raw recording of the Finsbury Park show - can we assume they're taken from these acetates or from copies of the tapes? Obviously the other Palladium show is an audience recording, so...


Good question, but I suppose Bgas will have to jump in here as I haven't heard any of the acetates from Finsbury. Though, I do have the raw stereo soundboard of Finsbury that circulates, which I'll assume is the one that everyone else has? Also, as Bgas noted above, the Finsbury acetates feature two different mixes (or "mikings" as they say on the sleeve) for each of the two shows. Smiley

I can say this much though: I was surprised at how nearly identical that 1970 acetate mix from the incomplete Palladium AIWTD sounded compared to the '83 Rarities mix. Other than the track fading out, that is. Really close in terms of placements in the mix (not mastering obviously).
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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2013, 11:12:00 PM »

Is there a thread where you listed all of these?

Yeah, but not much in the way of recording lineage due to my lack of knowledge of the lineages involved.
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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2013, 11:54:58 PM »

Just out of curiosity, do these acetates circulate? Or do any circulating tapes come from other sources/copies? I'd sure love to hear those acetates.
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Ram4
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« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2013, 08:49:42 AM »

I love these type of threads analyzing live editing.  I have no problem with the creation of a superior performance if the original(s) on their own are imperfect as they have done with All I Want To Do.  It's even more fascinating when you think you know the facts (one version complete, inferior - one version tape ran out) and then suddenly there is a complete version on MIC that's good all the way through.

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« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2013, 09:16:23 AM »

The soundboard bootlegs of the Palladium late show and the raw recording of the Finsbury Park show - can we assume they're taken from these acetates or from copies of the tapes? Obviously the other Palladium show is an audience recording, so...


Good question, but I suppose Bgas will have to jump in here as I haven't heard any of the acetates from Finsbury. Though, I do have the raw stereo soundboard of Finsbury that circulates, which I'll assume is the one that everyone else has? Also, as Bgas noted above, the Finsbury acetates feature two different mixes (or "mikings" as they say on the sleeve) for each of the two shows. Smiley

I can say this much though: I was surprised at how nearly identical that 1970 acetate mix from the incomplete Palladium AIWTD sounded compared to the '83 Rarities mix. Other than the track fading out, that is. Really close in terms of placements in the mix (not mastering obviously).

  I don't believe that I own any of the boots you're referencing, so I can't speak as to their sources, unfortunately.  And I tend to forget that some of this stuff has been released on factory issues. This is sort-of why I was thinking of your list, so as to compare what's known to be out there with what I can hear, at any point in time
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