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Author Topic: Mid-90s BB reunion timeline  (Read 14213 times)
monicker
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2013, 06:08:47 PM »

Hey Wirestone, you forgot that Mike Love is evil.
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2013, 10:37:43 PM »

I would like to point out that the reason the Paley sessions didn't come out has nothing to do with the powers that be around Brian or any such nonsense. The fact is, the Beach Boys ultimately rejected the tracks. And Brian and Andy could not get a record label interested in releasing the songs as a solo project. And once some time passes, Brian tends to let projects go and move on to the next thing.

Joe Thomas may have his negative points, but he does manage to get labels to release music by Brian Wilson. Andy Paley failed at that.

I don't think that's necessarily true ...

But in any case, I'm not really sure who the 'powers that be' are in this case, but I'm basically saying that these recordings didn't have any support system (from the Beach Boys, Brian's managers, record labels, whomever) because they are a little bit odd (I'd say too legit) for people to know what to do with. I think Love You was the last album where they really just sort of went with the strangeness. Afterward, Adult Child got canned and we got MIU instead. I don't think it's just the Beach Boys, as most of Brian's solo material that has been released is very 'safe' ... i.e., it conforms to commercial standards and/or Pet Sounds/Smile-type idioms (i.e., 'Rio Grande').

I think Carl probably heard the tracks as uncommercial or strange or demo-like and didn't want another 'Love You' kind of album. And there's a story out there somewhere in which Carl says to Sean O'Hagen (during a conversation on a plane flight) that he doesn't believe the Beach Boys are capable of producing an 'artistic' record. Which explains his willingness to go along with Summer in Paradise, Stars & Stripes, etc. but not the Paley stuff. Or maybe he just didn't like the songs. And let's face it -- his solo albums are very much sort of MOR/commercial kinds of affairs, as are all of the projects he was involved with in the '80s-'90s. Kind of just seemed like where he was at at the time.

I think this a bit of a stretch. Even when Brian was in his "least commercial" (which for arguments sake, we'll say is '68 to '73) era, he still wanted hits. I remember reading an interview probably from '76 or so where he reflected upon the fact that he thought that they made some real nice records but that they got "too arty" for the kids buying records or something like that.  Or you can even hear it in the 1973 or 1974 interview where he talks about Spring and other stuff. Or on the signed photo to that guy who leaked some supposed Beach Boys stuff (Don Goldberg, I think his name is) where it says something like "write us a hit!"

I think basically his whole career he has wanted to have hits. Even during the SMiLE era, what ended up handicapping his attempt to get the album done? Trying to make the perfect single with "Heroes And Villains." He's also mentioned the fact that he was disappointed he wasn't on "Kokomo", a number one hit.

The Paley sessions? I don't think they were incredibly avant garde or anything crazy. It was kinda just Brian doing what he does. Honestly, a lot of that stuff has the same kinda vibe as TLOS, where it's just Brian and a thoughtful collaborator. I don't think either collection of songs is especially crazy, nor commercial. And yet one of the collections actually got released, and in my opinion is because it was better. There was some good stuff, and most of it got released. Now sure, you could say that some of the versions that got released were inferior (such as "Gettin' In Over My Head"), but the songs did get out there. And for Imagination, I think he wrote two songs better than most of the Paley sessions material, those being "Lay Down Burden" and "Cry". And as there is a Paley co-authored track on the album, I wouldn't doubt that if Brian really wanted any material from those sessions on that album, he coulda gotten them on there. I just think he was past that material. It had it's time, and didn't really wow the people he was working with. So he moved on. And honestly, I don't think it was just Carl who might've been unimpressed. Don Was apparently didn't think much of it was great either, as he told Brian to go back and write some more songs for a the prospective mid-to-late '90s Beach Boys album.

And with O'Hagen saying that Brian is an "avant garde artist" or whatever is wrong because Brian Wilson isn't an avant garde artist . It's a small part of what Brian has done. And during his most "avant garde" period, he was searching for that "pop single", just as I was saying earlier.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 11:14:01 PM by sweetdudejim » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2013, 11:09:01 PM »

^ Exactly, because back then pop WAS the avant-garde. Or vice versa.
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2013, 11:14:08 PM »

Still. Joe Thomas' "Brian's potential as an Adult Contemporary artist" makes me want to heave.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 11:39:46 PM by You've Lost That Ailing Vomit Feeling » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2013, 11:29:17 PM »

Hey Wirestone, you forgot that Mike Love is evil.

And when have I ever said that? He's done some things I didn't like, but I have always expressed admiration for his talents. Y'see, I don't believe that someone has to lose in order for someone else to win. I like both Andy Paley and Joe Thomas. They've each done good and bad things with Brian. No one is a hero or villain -- but everyone is capable of villainous or heroic actions.
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2013, 11:32:12 PM »

Still. Joe Thomas' "Brian's potential as an Adult Contemporary" artist makes me want to heave.

I do hate Dream Angel. Neat horn arrangement, but a shame about the song.
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« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2013, 12:08:23 AM »

I like 'Dream Angel' Sad

Thomas's comment, though...grr.
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« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2013, 12:13:46 AM »

I think the only problem with Brian and Andy Paley was bad timing.  Brian was still getting his shit together at that point.  I remember hearing an interview during the time when Smile came out and he said that he thought everything he did with Andy Paley was good and that he'd be interested in getting more of it out there.  Of course that was nearly a decade ago when he said that but I think that shows that it had nothing to do with Brian not liking the material.  And I don't think he necessarily ditched him for Joe Thomas either.  It kind of goes like this.  Brian records with Paley and Don Was and it's all good, tries to get the Beach Boys involved and then that falls apart.  The Stars and Stripes idea comes about, enter Joe Thomas.  Thomas works well with Brian, Brian and Melinda like him.  And that segues into Imagination.  It was a very gradual series of events.  They just decided to move forward.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 12:15:06 AM by Rocky Raccoon » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2013, 02:34:24 AM »

What was Grace of My Heart?

I mean, I know it was a movie with a pseudo BW characater, but were the BB going to record music for it?  Did the track become something else?
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« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2013, 04:15:34 AM »

They acknowledge the "weirdness", but only in a very limited, controlled way and occasionally when it suits their needs.

Like letting him tour with notedly conservative Adult Contemporary artist Jeff Beck?

And no, I really don't think the finished version of "Smile" actually stands as an example of them reining in his weirdo artistic tendencies.  Honestly, this whole "Brian as creative weirdo who has to be kept in check by his managers" bit really doesn't rest on anything, except peoples' fantasies about the True Brian...

Cheers,
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« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2013, 08:42:49 AM »

Hey Wirestone, you forgot that Mike Love is evil.

And when have I ever said that?

I was kidding. When did i say the things you said in your previous response to me?  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2013, 09:04:11 AM »

While thinking about this topic last night, I found this interesting quote by Bruce Johnston about the 1995 reunion, courtesy of Howie Edelson:

"That was a courtesy to Brian for us to be there. Brian certainly wasn't at any kind of peak in those days, but we respected his history and achievements for us to go and record with him and see what it might sound like. We were just trying to support someone who had been successful and good for us. I think if you use your ears, you'll hear that those tapes don't really lift off. It's fine -- but not fine enough."

What this kind of quote signifies to me was that by the '90s, the core group was Mike, Bruce, Carl and to an extent Al. It had been 30 years since Brian's heyday, and nearly 20 years since the "Brian's Back" era. And besides  "Sail On, Sailor", "It's OK" and "Good Timin'", Brian hadn't penned a hit single for them since the '60s, whereas they still probably felt they'd been proven on their own with "Kokomo", while Brian was off doing a solo album that, while critically successful, performed nowhere close to "Kokomo" commercially.

And then all of the sudden Brian decides that he wants the group back. After slamming them in his book (so they thought) and barely appearing with them for like 10 years, they probably felt like "who the sh*t does he think he is coming in here taking over our group?"

But regardless, he wants to produce them again, just like the old days. Like Pet Sounds and the early material. But as you can sense from Bruce's quote, it definitely seems like they thought of him as an outsider. And even if he did wanna do this, they definitely weren't of the opinion that he could pull if off. It seems like they thought he was more damaged than he truly was, as Melinda mentioned that during the Stars & Stripes sessions and shows, they treated him like an "invalid", always asking him if he was ok, but apparently being scared he might sing and embarrass them. What they didn't know was that usually they did a great job of embarrassing themselves without Brian, and that even a workmanlike, somewhat return to form type album like McCartney's Flowers In The Dirt would have definitely gave them much more credibility and likely a whole lot more sales than Summer In Paradise or Stars & Stripes. And the reason I think it would have probably been the equivalent of that McCartney album is that it wouldn't have been a return to Pet Sounds Brian, it just wouldn't have. But like Flowers In The Dirt and Dylan's Oh Mercy, it would have been a strong return with a few highlights from a classic artist after they had been in the wilderness for a while.

And despite Bruce later saying it was a mistake that Brian and his people decided to do the solo deal instead of the Beach Boys album in the late '90s, I think it was probably Mike, Bruce and Carl's attitudes that probably made it easier for Brian and company to decide which way to go. Basically, "if it's gonna be this tough to try to do something, why don't we just deal with a more mellow, easier to create situation." Which yes, led to Brian with Joe Thomas. But in the long run, also led to Brian's work with Darian, Scott, et al. And I think that because Brian got his own group, and his own support system, that is ultimately why C50 worked. Because unlike the '90s reunion sessions, Brian had a lot of people on his side to help him achieve his goals and not get bogged down with Beach Boys intra-group nonsense. And I also think heading his own group for over a decade probably gave him self confidence that he may have been lacking in the mid-'90s when dealing with The Beach Boys.

And lastly, I don't think we can underestimate what the lack of Carl meant. In my opinion, he was probably the only group member that really would be able to influence Brian's opinion one way or the other. These days, it's obvious that there can only be one leader in the studio. Mike just doesn't have the musical chops, Bruce apparently has no motivation (and is not an original member), Al understands that working with Brian Wilson is a wonderful opportunity and cherishes it, and Dave, well...let's be honest. The last time he was in a creatively functional Beach Boys was 1963. So he's lucky to even be in the room. And that's why I think TWGMTR turned out well. Brian got to do his thing without any other cooks trying to spoil the soup.


Still. Joe Thomas' "Brian's potential as an Adult Contemporary artist" makes me want to heave.

Oh absolutely. That is as much off base as Sean O'Hagen's remarks.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2013, 09:10:58 AM »

Hey Wirestone, you forgot that Mike Love is evil.

And when have I ever said that?

I was kidding. When did i say the things you said in your previous response to me?  Wink


That was unclear, and I'm sorry. Most of that post was directed to Donny, actually.
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« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2013, 12:15:58 AM »

Regarding Carl's problems with the 1995 sessions and material, bear in mind that, very likely, this was when he realised he had a serious health problem brewing. I know his cancer was publicly announced spring 1997, but from speaking to certain folk and from personal observation, there was patently something amiss late 1995/early 1996.
Has anybody actually directly asked Carl's family if he had cancer or some kind of health problem that was kept private for some time before being announced publicly in 1997?
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« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2013, 10:42:31 PM »

I doubt you'd get a response - they're very private people - but there's no real need: too many reliable people have noted that Carl was looking less than healthy fup to some 18 months before his official diagnosis for it to be a coincidence. I saw him twice in the first half of 1996, in the UK and the US, and he looked just plain... wrong. My US friend's wife, no big BB fan, took one look and said "what is wrong with him ?"
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« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2013, 12:58:55 AM »

Regarding Carl's problems with the 1995 sessions and material, bear in mind that, very likely, this was when he realised he had a serious health problem brewing. I know his cancer was publicly announced spring 1997, but from speaking to certain folk and from personal observation, there was patently something amiss late 1995/early 1996.
Has anybody actually directly asked Carl's family if he had cancer or some kind of health problem that was kept private for some time before being announced publicly in 1997?

At the time his cancer was publicly announced, it was stage IV.  That means he had it awhile (possibly as long as several years) before it was officially announced, regardless of when it was diagnosed.
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« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2013, 03:12:49 AM »

And these similar, shady people have a vendetta against the Paley songs -- except, I suppose, for the eight or so that have been released on Brian Wilson and Beach Boys records. (Soul Searchin, You're Still A Mystery, GIOMH, Desert Drive, Saturday Morning in the City, This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight, In My Moondreams, Where Has Love Been.)

I missed "This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight" being released - on what record is that?


I like 'Dream Angel' Sad

Thomas's comment, though...grr.

What quote?
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« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2013, 04:11:47 AM »

I saw a video on You Tube recently; an interview with Carl and Bruce and the guys from Status Quo, so it was around 1995-1996, I don't recall exactly. There were a few close ups of Carl; he doesn't look right...hard to explain why, but if you see the video I think you'll see what I mean.
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« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2013, 05:23:41 AM »

I've always felt that if the 1st song worked on during the Was/Paley sessions would have been "Desert Drive" things would have gone much differently.  The song was and is a made to order hit single with a Mike Love lead vocal.
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« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2013, 06:48:21 AM »



What quote?

The b-side to Brian's Do It Again single.
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« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2013, 02:46:07 PM »

And these similar, shady people have a vendetta against the Paley songs -- except, I suppose, for the eight or so that have been released on Brian Wilson and Beach Boys records. (Soul Searchin, You're Still A Mystery, GIOMH, Desert Drive, Saturday Morning in the City, This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight, In My Moondreams, Where Has Love Been.)

I missed "This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight" being released - on what record is that?


I like 'Dream Angel' Sad

Thomas's comment, though...grr.

What quote?
the one about Brian being an AC artist
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 02:47:10 PM by Beat-a-low Bill » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2013, 04:41:38 PM »



What quote?

The b-side to Brian's Do It Again single.

what
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« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2013, 04:45:42 PM »


I see what happened here.  Micha asked about a quote in the same post he asked about where "This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight" appears.   Nicko answered the latter but accidentally cited the former.
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« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2013, 12:19:15 AM »

The b-side to Brian's Do It Again single.

Even though that is technically an official release, it seems like a shame for it only to be available in such an obscure place when it's better (in my view) than much of what has appeared on Brian's solo albums.
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« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2013, 12:28:26 AM »


I see what happened here.  Micha asked about a quote in the same post he asked about where "This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight."   Nicko answered the latter but accidentally cited the former.

Yes, a dumb mistake on my part.
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