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Author Topic: MIC modern reconstuction.  (Read 12423 times)
MBE
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« on: August 29, 2013, 02:41:42 AM »

Maybe we can consolidate our thoughts on the non vintage additions found on the set. Mostly they work OK but I wish it had been made clearer what was done when.
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Disney Boy (1985)
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2013, 02:50:54 AM »

So far I've listened to CD 6 and CD 3. I strongly dislike whatever the hell it is they've done to Sail Plane Song. They've sucked all the life out of You've Lost That Loving Feelin'. The strings are ok on We're Together Again and I suppose the extra singing and fx on Susie Cincinatti are alright, but you know, why? Why do it? Just leave this stuff alone.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 02:51:59 AM by Disney Boy (1985) » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 02:58:55 AM »

So far I've listened to CD 6 and CD 3. I strongly dislike whatever the hell it is they've done to Sail Plane Song. They've sucked all the life out of You've Lost That Loving Feelin'. The strings are ok on We're Together Again and I suppose the extra singing and fx on Susie Cincinatti are alright, but you know, why? Why do it? Just leave this stuff alone.

In the cases of "Susie Cincinatti" and "We're Together Again", I think it's cool. Restoring lost elements gives you a new perspective on these songs, and I think they're both improvements over what's out there.
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 03:17:25 AM »

So far I've listened to CD 6 and CD 3. I strongly dislike whatever the hell it is they've done to Sail Plane Song. They've sucked all the life out of You've Lost That Loving Feelin'. The strings are ok on We're Together Again and I suppose the extra singing and fx on Susie Cincinatti are alright, but you know, why? Why do it? Just leave this stuff alone.

Been a mix of "WTA" with strings doing the rounds for years, and  the single version of "Susie" had the fx. But... yeah, "YLTLF", in terms of knocking you flat on your sonic ass, sounds considerably limper than the first tape I had of it over 30 years ago.
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MBE
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 03:47:13 AM »

Sail Plane is the weird one, a bit overboard on that I think. YLTLF is interesting to hear Brian's vocal a little more clear, heavy bass did previously give it a different feel. Susie has more in common with the very cool mono single mix. I just hear more Dennis really. We're Together Again sounds nice but Dennis still didn't get credit for his lead lines which bothers me.

Brian sounds older than the era, but YSAM is pretty good. Goin To The Beach is one of the better ones as I don't hear the modern elements. It's OK and Rock and Roll Music are cool but seem very much modern fan mixes. The original hot mix of Rock And Roll Music had some cool wooshing effects cut out though this one is close. Back Home 1970 is a big problem. On one hand I like it a lot, on the other hand it seems like a Frankenstein with parts flown in from several sets of lyrics. Glad to have new parts, but the booted version feels more organic and loose.

I guess all is pretty much cool overall with the minor edits. False starts, long outros, session talk added, those things are always welcome. I still don't understand why the California Saga 45 version can't be somehow salvaged. A mint copy can sound really good with the right transfer.
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 04:12:13 AM »


I was about to start a thread about this.
I'm not yet sure how I feel about these "artistic liberties" they have taken.
Some of them sound good or were necessary but some other - already listed above - actually ruin the experience.  For me the worst offender is YSAM as I was really looking forward to that one.
I just don't know how I feel yet.

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MBE
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2013, 04:37:26 AM »

The reason You're Still A Mystery doesn't bother me so much is because I don't treasure Brian's voice in either era. I like what I am hearing in the harmonies and track. There is a lot you could not hear before, but I wouldn't have let Al replace Loop De Loop either.
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2013, 04:45:05 AM »

Mixed bag IMHO.

Sound really nice: The stereo Do It Again, We're Together Again, Back Home, Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again, California Feelin', Soul Searchin', and You're Still A Mystery are all really nice. I enjoy em.

Sound too "modern" but I don't mind: Susie Cincinatti, Lady, It's OK, Rock N' Roll Music, Had To Phone Ya, and Why. I don't mind enjoying these on their own, but they do sound weird when slotted next to vintage mixes of other songs from the same period.

Sound terrible: It's Over Now, and especially You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling. There's no feel to the mixes - they actually feel "unmixed". Crazy separation, and vocals are too low in It's Over Now. Everything is fighting each other. Thank god we still have the box set version that you can speed correct. And You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling - what's up with that? Totally limp, and then there's that weird effect on Brian's voice... was that added?

Also, did they add echo to some of the live track vocals - are is that on the original recordings? Both Blondie on Sail On Sailor and Carl on I Can Hear Music sound really unnatural.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 04:47:33 AM by picassosson » Logged
Disney Boy (1985)
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2013, 05:56:46 AM »

To quote Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park: "You spent so long thinking about how you could, that you didn't stop to think whether you should".

Just leave things alone and everyone's happy surely?
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 05:58:23 AM »


Just leave things alone and everyone's happy surely?

Yes and no. I love what they've done to some tracks (Rock and Roll Music & It's OK spring to mind)
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 06:12:14 AM »

I still don't understand why the California Saga 45 version can't be somehow salvaged. A mint copy can sound really good with the right transfer.

No need - the master is perfectly OK. The 45 mix is on Best Of The Brother Years. I think someone just screwed up.
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MBE
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 06:18:00 AM »

I still don't understand why the California Saga 45 version can't be somehow salvaged. A mint copy can sound really good with the right transfer.

No need - the master is perfectly OK. The 45 mix is on Best Of The Brother Years. I think someone just screwed up.
That's right. I  don't often play many CD's that have all vinyl material so I forgot.
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 06:36:47 AM »

To quote Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park: "You spent so long thinking about how you could, that you didn't stop to think whether you should".

Just leave things alone and everyone's happy surely?

 LOL
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 06:43:04 AM »

I still don't understand why the California Saga 45 version can't be somehow salvaged. A mint copy can sound really good with the right transfer.

No need - the master is perfectly OK. The 45 mix is on Best Of The Brother Years. I think someone just screwed up.

I don't think so. Because they put the same thing on Fifty Big Ones. It seems that they purposely aren't using the single version.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 06:53:57 AM »

Hello ? The single mix is on the GH3 CD, it's not a needledrop and it's in great shape. One screwup begets another - "BTTYS" on Endless Summer, anyone ?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 06:56:44 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2013, 07:31:15 AM »

People bitched when the boxed set tracklist came out because they thought they'd seen everything before.

Now we know the compilers worked their asses off to give us unique versions and mixes.

So we bitch about that instead.

Le sigh.
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2013, 07:39:23 AM »

The recons suit me just fine.  Grin
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Matt Bielewicz
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2013, 07:46:19 AM »

People bitched when the boxed set tracklist came out because they thought they'd seen everything before.

Now we know the compilers worked their asses off to give us unique versions and mixes.

So we bitch about that instead.

Le sigh.

Quotado in veritas. Some people are never happy.

A lot of these mixes have been done from scratch, and clearly incorporate things that were on the original tapes, but were mixed out for the original releases. I'm certain that's the case with Suzie Cincinnati. All the Dennis ad-libs on the tag, they're not fly-ins, they're things that were recorded back in the day which were mixed out on the original release, I'll bet my life on it. And if I remember correctly (it's quite possible that I don't), there were two multitracks for We're Together Again back in the late 60s for some reason, one of which had the string overdubs on it and subsequently went missing. I don't know why they recorded it like that; I know in the *MID-60s* they did a lot of recording of basic tracks to one multitrack, dubbed the tracks from that down to a fresh one, and carried on recording, but that was because they were on three- or four-tracks back then. By the time of We're Together Again, I don't know why that would have still been necessary, as they were definitely using eight-tracks regularly and were either about to start using 16-tracks as well, or already had.

But for whatever reason, if I recall correctly, it must have been like this. A basic backing for We're Together Again is recorded to Tape A. Later parts of this are dubbed to Tape B, to which string overdubs are recorded. Test mixes are done from Tape B that include the strings. Some time after that, Tape B goes missing, so the only tapes that have the string overdubs on them are the test mixdowns, which are booted and circulate among collectors during the 80s. When the twofers were released in 1990, the released mix of We're Together Again (which was added to Friends/20/20 as a bonus track) could only be made using Tape A, so there were no strings.

Between 1990 and today, Tape B turned up again, and so it's now possible to make a mix with the strings, as it was in the late 60s. And that's how we get the version on MiC. Far from being some kind of revisionist sweetening string overdub created especially for MiC, those parts were always *supposed* to be there...

...I think.
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2013, 08:18:00 AM »

By the time of We're Together Again, I don't know why that would have still been necessary, as they were definitely using eight-tracks regularly and were either about to start using 16-tracks as well, or already had.

Purely for info, the band started using a 16-track console in the home studio by October 13th 1969 at the latest. Their first 16-track recording was the revised "Cotton Fields" single, using Sunset Sound's board in mid-August. "WTA" was recorded 3-6 September 1968.
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Curtis Leon
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2013, 08:39:31 AM »

I actually enjoy the new Sail Plane Song. It changes the vibe a bit and makes it seem more finished than it was on Endless Harmony. In fact, the only thing I really don't like about the box is the new vocal for You're Still a Mystery, mainly because I really enjoyed the original 1995 era vocal and was quite looking forward to hearing it in pristine quality. The crystal clear Soul Searchin' more than makes up for it, though, wonkiness in the bridge or no. I really enjoy the demo of California Feelin', quite possibly more than any other version that's been put out, so far.

I do wonder why Sound of Free didn't get a modern stereo remix, though. The mono sticks out like a sore thumb on that part of the disc, surrounded by stereo on both sides. Some sort of issue with Brother Records? Or did they just want to present the single in its original form? They certainly didn't do the same justice with Lady/Fallin' in Love, so. Less a gripe and more just a curiosity.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2013, 08:42:15 AM »

Um... there's an excellent reason "SPS" sounded unfinished on EH - it's only a demo.
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2013, 08:46:44 AM »

Purely for info, the band started using a 16-track console in the home studio by October 13th 1969 at the latest. Their first 16-track recording was the revised "Cotton Fields" single, using Sunset Sound's board in mid-August. "WTA" was recorded 3-6 September 1968.

Thanks Andrew - always interesting to know this stuff. I still don't know why they used two tapes for WTA, though. One eight-track tape should have been enough, even with string overdubs...? Maybe this was exceptionally recorded to four-track for some reason I don't understand...?

And regarding Sound Of Free... isn't the multitrack for this one missing, but not the one for 'Lady/Fallin' In Love'? THAT would explain why SoF is still in mono...?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 08:58:16 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 08:47:08 AM »

Um... there's an excellent reason "SPS" sounded unfinished on EH - it's only a demo.

I wasn't trying to make any claims toward the state of Sail Plane Song, bad wording on my part. I'm just stating I enjoy it as a cool little side note to the demo on Endless Harmony.
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2013, 09:19:05 AM »

I've concluded after repeat listenings that Linett screwed up Sail Plane Song. Didn't need the panning and the weird effects and all the crap that was added to the previous release. I mean, why? Let a fan mix it like that, but for a regular release? No. Maybe I'm spoiled it because it was previously released as a demo and not a finished song. It's just not very well done. Have fun on your own but it was a mistake to release it.
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2013, 09:25:01 AM »

"Mitchell" said it well on another thread and I agree with him: "Certain tracks have audible compression and phasing, which is disappointing."

"Fishmonk" said "I mean, sure, there's decent stuff here, some absolutely essential material appears here for the first time, but given the frustrating issues with the mixing and mastering........"

And Autotune too, right?  Again?  Maybe they think we can't hear it??  And excessive reverb? And excessive echo/reverb on the live tracks where it isn't needed??

Maybe just a little bit too much dickin' around with some of these tracks.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:36:08 AM by Mikie » Logged

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