Is Sunflower actually overrated? Defend the album.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I like it as much or more than Pet Sounds too.... And it's really the last time I get that feeling of the onnipresent Brian being just as powerfull than the all-present Brian. Sure, he's stepped back writing/lead vocal-wise but his prescense is huge and he's kicking ass all over the place.

If people like it for being democratic, that's because each member has stepped up with top notch contributions proving that each of them are worthy of being accused of being individually talented in a big way... I know this is a difficult thing to grasp for some.

[phirnis]

I don't find anything they did between Friends and Holland to be overrated. In general I don't believe in art as a democratic process but the BB somehow pulled it off around that time and of course BW was still contributing some of the strongest songs of his entire career. (In fact I tend to think he continued to grow as a songwriter even after the demise of Smile.) Sunflower may be the most twee record they did and it took me a while to get into it. I think it's every bit as good as any other "best BB album ever" you'd care to mention.

[Micha]

Sunflower is rated so high because you can hear the care that has been taken in producing these tracks. They sound so full and well orchestrated/arranged, something Brian hasn't done consistently since the SMiLE sessions. And though one poster said the same goes for the next album, I feel Surf's Up does not have the same level of cared for production.

And it's really the last time I get that feeling of the onnipresent Brian being just as powerfull than the all-present Brian. Sure, he's stepped back writing/lead vocal-wise but his prescense is huge and he's kicking ass all over the place.

Personally, it's a really un-Brian album. I remember in 2011 I celebrated the day TSS came out by listening to vinyl Today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, SMiLE and Sunflower in a row. Sunflower didn't fit, it really is someone else's work. Good work still!

You either like it or you don't.

I like most of it. The only tune I didn't like when I first listened to it was "Tears In The Morning" which I found sappy and overdone. Later I found it was actually recorded on the very day I was born, of all songs!

The one overrated song to me is Cool Cool Water.

Is it better than Pet Sounds? On Pet Sounds there are songs that move me more, so IMHO no.

What I like the least is the cover design. The photo is nice, but the graphics, uh... The Surf's Up cover art kicks Sunflower's in the dust.

I don't find anything they did between Friends and Holland to be overrated.

Right, Friends and Holland are overrated, but not those in between.

[Mike's Beard]

Personally, it's a really un-Brian album. I remember in 2011 I celebrated the day TSS came out by listening to vinyl Today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, SMiLE and Sunflower in a row. Sunflower didn't fit, it really is someone else's work. Good work still!

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits. Who is the guy with the most prominent backing vocals on most tracks? Sunflower is the first album since Pet Sounds where Brian sounds like he cared enough again to go the extra mile. I do agree that it's also the first album where the rest of the band solidly proved that they had creative talent of their own. These two factors collide to make Sunflower one of the band's best records.

[MBE]

Personally, it's a really un-Brian album. I remember in 2011 I celebrated the day TSS came out by listening to vinyl Today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, SMiLE and Sunflower in a row. Sunflower didn't fit, it really is someone else's work. Good work still!

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits. Who is the guy with the most prominent backing vocals on most tracks? Sunflower is the first album since Pet Sounds where Brian sounds like he cared enough again to go the extra mile. I do agree that it's also the first album where the rest of the band solidly proved that they had creative talent of their own. These two factors collide to make Sunflower one of the band's best records.

Brian did have a lot to do with the album. Of the ones put out from 20/20 through Holland, Sunflower is the one he tried hardest on.

[Micha]

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits.

"My friend Bob, he got a job..."

Yes, Brian's name is on many tracks, but listening to them they don't sound Brianish to me, except This Whole World which, except for the drums, does, and Cool Cool Water. The other songs, Brian may have added stuff, but didn't make them Brian style songs the way, say, TWGMTR is. Of course everybody's free to disagree with me, I may be wrong.

[Nicko1234]

I don't think this album is overrated. This Whole World, Forever, All I Wanna Do (if anything this song is underrated as evidenced by its non-inclusion on MiC) and Cool Cool Water are all classics. Our Sweet Love and Deirdre are also really pretty songs.

Add Some Music is the one song I would say is maybe overrated.

Got to Know the Woman is the weakest of the set and they had stronger songs available. Dennis's Lady for one.

[phirnis]

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits.

"My friend Bob, he got a job..."

Yes, Brian's name is on many tracks, but listening to them they don't sound Brianish to me, except This Whole World which, except for the drums, does, and Cool Cool Water. The other songs, Brian may have added stuff, but didn't make them Brian style songs the way, say, TWGMTR is. Of course everybody's free to disagree with me, I may be wrong.

I think This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love and At My Window are all "very Brian". It's probably debatable how much he had to do with the actual production of CCW and All I Wanna Do but in terms of composition they were pretty much his I think.

[Don Malcolm]

Looks like roughly 19 responses suggest it's not overrated, 4-5 suggest it is, with 4-5 on the fence.

I rank 'em like this: PS, Today, Sunflower. After that it becomes a lot more subjective and subject to mood change. Those top three, however, have been solid and unwavering for a long time, and they happen to exactly reflect this board's rankings. Those who believe that Sunflower is over-reated are entitled to their opinions, but they seem to be a small minority.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits.

"My friend Bob, he got a job..."

Yes, Brian's name is on many tracks, but listening to them they don't sound Brianish to me, except This Whole World which, except for the drums, does, and Cool Cool Water. The other songs, Brian may have added stuff, but didn't make them Brian style songs the way, say, TWGMTR is. Of course everybody's free to disagree with me, I may be wrong.

And why should you care? Why should anyone care?

A great Beach Boys album is a great Beach Boys album. What difference does it make if it's all Brian or a "democratic" creation?

If it really matters, maybe you're listening to writing credits and not the music.

[Micha]

Can't agree there, look whose name appears most in the writing credits.

"My friend Bob, he got a job..."

Yes, Brian's name is on many tracks, but listening to them they don't sound Brianish to me, except This Whole World which, except for the drums, does, and Cool Cool Water. The other songs, Brian may have added stuff, but didn't make them Brian style songs the way, say, TWGMTR is. Of course everybody's free to disagree with me, I may be wrong.

And why should you care? Why should anyone care?

A great Beach Boys album is a great Beach Boys album. What difference does it make if it's all Brian or a "democratic" creation?

If it really matters, maybe you're listening to writing credits and not the music.

You mean me? Dude, maybe you didn't read what I wrote here:

it really is someone else's work. Good work still!

If you think I disagree with you in this case, you're wrong.

[Cabinessenceking]

Sunflower would be beat by a Surf's Up album featuring 4th Of July and WIBNTLA imo. Both showcase an excellent group effort as opposed to the stellar effort of Brian during the 1965-67 album years.

[Nicko1234]

I think This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love and At My Window are all "very Brian". It's probably debatable how much he had to do with the actual production of CCW and All I Wanna Do but in terms of composition they were pretty much his I think.

According to Al, Brian had very little to do with At My Window. I think Al's name comes first on the credits, presumably for this reason.

[phirnis]

I think This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love and At My Window are all "very Brian". It's probably debatable how much he had to do with the actual production of CCW and All I Wanna Do but in terms of composition they were pretty much his I think.

According to Al, Brian had very little to do with At My Window. I think Al's name comes first on the credits, presumably for this reason.

Ah, that's cool, I did assume the vocal arrangements at least must've been Brian's work.

[MBE]

Purely on harmonies alone (and we know he did much more) Brian excelled on Sunflower.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

There's a tad too much sentimentality and schmaltz (something which the group were usually careful to keep in check, despite their slightly cloying rep) but mostly it's very strong and I certainly wouldn't say its over-rated (although I think Holland is a more coherent and better album). Desper's production is frequently stunning, in particular on All I Wanna Do.

GREAT SONGS:

Slip On Through
This Whole World
It's About Time
All I Wanna Do
Forever

VERY GOOD SONGS:

Got To Know The Woman
Our Sweet Love
Cool Cool Water

GOOD SONGS

Add Some Music To Your Day
Diedre

NOT THEIR BEST

At My Window

REALLY NOT FOR ME...

Tears In The Morning

Replace TITM with Lady and AMW with San Miguel (the songs opening would've worked great coming in after Our Sweet Love's extended final note and would've really kicked things up a gear coming after two sweet romantic ballads) and you've got yourself an absolute stone-cold classic gem (albeit a slightly more Dennis-centred album - sorry Al and Bruce, he was just a better writer than you...)

[MBE]

At My Window-like Deirdre I think you can put Brian down for input mainly on the brief lead parts he sings. Likely he wrote some of those lines (in fact I know Brian got his maid to give him the French bits). Al was behind the music track, it was originally meant for a cover of Raspberries and Strawberries, a Kingston Trio song.

[Please delete my account]

I like it as much or more than Pet Sounds too.... And it's really the last time I get that feeling of the onnipresent Brian being just as powerfull than the all-present Brian.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, omnipresent and all-present mean the same thing.

As to the original question: No, it's not overrated; and no, it doesn't need defending.

[kwan_dk]

The engineering by Stephen Desper is top notch as well.  If we get to hear his true mixes someday (like Cool Cool Water where he shows you how it really could have all sounded), we will really be in for a treat.  

Agreed! Desper's work on this album is out of this world. The sound he got on those songs play a major role in why I rate this as one of my alltime favourite albums.

By the way, has anyone compiled a discography on all the recordings projects Desper had a hand in besides the Beach Boys? I'd love to investigate further if he supplied that warm & organic sound to other recordings...

[Nicko1234]

At My Window-like Deirdre I think you can put Brian down for input mainly on the brief lead parts he sings. Likely he wrote some of those lines (in fact I know Brian got his maid to give him the French bits). Al was behind the music track, it was originally meant for a cover of Raspberries and Strawberries, a Kingston Trio song.

Do you mean Al knocked off another band's tune? Surely not...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

This is a discussion on opinions of course, but I am not the biggest Sunflower fan. A solid album, but I find Surfs Up more interesting. I like it as an album better than 20/20 because the songs fit together better, but I feel the creativity of Surfs Up is greater. Although, Surfs Up would perhaps even rival SMiLE if Dennis had a few of his songs replace Feet, SDT and the title track (because its a SMiLE song).

[MBE]

At My Window-like Deirdre I think you can put Brian down for input mainly on the brief lead parts he sings. Likely he wrote some of those lines (in fact I know Brian got his maid to give him the French bits). Al was behind the music track, it was originally meant for a cover of Raspberries and Strawberries, a Kingston Trio song.

Do you mean Al knocked off another band's tune? Surely not...

More like reinvented it ala Cotton Fields.

[Marcella]

Sunflower is a personal album for me because it is the first album I listened to when I started to "dig deep" with the Beach Boys. Hearing Dennis on "Slip on Through" really showed me that this wasn't "my mother's Beach Boys." This Whole World remains my favorite track of the Boys so opening this strongly for me makes Sunflower a strong album. I happen to like both of the Bruce tracks here so for me it is a no doubt Top 3 Beach Boys album, right up there with Today! and Smile on my personal list (like Brian Wilson himself I find that I have to be in a certain mood for Pet Sounds)....

[Tony S]

Not over rated at all to me. Frankly, I think it's their best group effort. Also for me, one of the first albums I listened to by the Boys when I thought "hmmmmm, this doesn't sound like Surfin USA". But I loved it, and it is still my personal favorite to this day.

[Cam Mott]

This is a discussion on opinions of course, but I am not the biggest Sunflower fan. A solid album, but I find Surfs Up more interesting. I like it as an album better than 20/20 because the songs fit together better, but I feel the creativity of Surfs Up is greater. Although, Surfs Up would perhaps even rival SMiLE if Dennis had a few of his songs replace Feet, SDT and the title track (because its a SMiLE song).

I agree in that I think SF is over rated and SU is under rated except I would not get rid of TALOYF or SDT because they are part of the BBs charm of the album to me. I recognize the brilliance of Dennis' music but it does not connect with me emotionally so I would not regret the addition of some of his songs but I don't regret their exclusion either. Probably just me.