gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
658568 Posts in 26370 Topics by 3742 Members - Latest Member: Soulful Old Man River May 31, 2020, 10:16:06 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 21 22 23 [24] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Post Release MIC Track Discussion  (Read 75611 times)
monkee knutz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 296


View Profile
« Reply #575 on: September 24, 2013, 07:30:04 PM »


Disc 4:
Five songs from 'Love You'? Isn't that a bit much? 
HA! I'd agree! About 5 songs too many!

And why no 'Lady Lynda'?
Maybe because it's pretty el-stinko like the majority of L.A.

It's a real shame that they couldn't have included some of the demos from this period ...
Umm… For the most part the majority of Love You IS demos.



Somebody hold my coat.
Haha! The stinging truth hurts, duddn't it?!  Wink
Logged
Micha
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3133



View Profile WWW
« Reply #576 on: September 25, 2013, 09:22:22 AM »


Disc 4:
Five songs from 'Love You'? Isn't that a bit much? 
HA! I'd agree! About 5 songs too many!

And why no 'Lady Lynda'?
Maybe because it's pretty el-stinko like the majority of L.A.

It's a real shame that they couldn't have included some of the demos from this period ...
Umm… For the most part the majority of Love You IS demos.



Somebody hold my coat.
Haha! The stinging truth hurts, duddn't it?!  Wink

I'm not sure it really IS the truth, but I happen to agree. Smiley
Logged

Ceterum censeo SMiLEBrianum OSDumque esse excludendos banno.
Freddie French-Pounce
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1524


A.K.A. mrmoustachioto


View Profile
« Reply #577 on: September 27, 2013, 01:36:17 PM »

I found a Sherry She Needs Me from a bootleg before MIC with the single tracked vocal. The 'it's time weEeEeE' people have been commenting on is clearly here, but I'm too lazy to analyse the rest...
Logged

Brian Wilson - He's Gonna Eat Ya!!!

Check out my friend and I's 2-Piece UK Garage Rock band here! : https://www.facebook.com/hypnotici/

Hear me, Freddie, Slaughter The Beach Boys [inc. SMiLE] here! : http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14121.msg312233.html#msg312233
- "I laughed so hard I disturbed my work place." - pixeltwin
PhilCohen
Guest
« Reply #578 on: September 28, 2013, 02:47:05 PM »

Finally, a month after the release of "Made in California", you guys decided to un-ban me. Am I particularly upset over the 2 seconds of silence preceding each song on "Disc 3"? Not really, as long as the music is all there. (actually, the skip on "Disc 4" of Bob Dylan's "Another Self-Portrait" box bugs me more.) How do I rate the song selection? Well, considering how much unreleased 1970's Beach Boys songs there are(though some are cover versions), the compilers could have included more 1970's vault tracks.

Obviously, further vault material is being held back to (possibly) create future archival projects. It's the same marketing strategy which has been successful for the Jimi Hendrix estate. And like the Hendrix estate, the creation of occasional "Out-Fakes" is a way to make a dwindling supply of vault material last longer. For The Beach Boys, the "Out-Fakes" include A Capella mixes, instrumental mixes etc. . For the Hendrix estate, the Out-Fakes are ProTools confections that involve "Flying In" already released vocal performances onto previously unreleased instrumental performances.

And, as with the Hendrix estate, The Beach Boys play very loosely with the term "previously unreleased". To me, adding a bit of session talk before an already released performance does NOT constitute a previously unreleased track.

Still, the stereo remix of "Do It Again" is worth the price of the boxed set.

Do I believe that "Made in California" will be the final Beach Boys boxed set? Yes, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of future one disc or two disc CD or DVD projects....if the feuding Beach Boys can agree.

From now on, I will only make very occasional appearances here. I don't think that there's much that I can add. I'm relieved that the 21-month "Made in California" ordeal is over.
Logged
Sam_BFC
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 925


View Profile
« Reply #579 on: September 28, 2013, 04:00:08 PM »

For The Beach Boys, the "Out-Fakes" include A Capella mixes, instrumental mixes etc.

No matter how you label it, the Slip On Through acapella track is out of this world 3D A true highlight.
Logged

"..be cautious, don't get your hopes up, look over your shoulder because heartbreak and darkness are always ready to pounce"

petsoundsnola
runnersdialzero
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5143


I WILL NEVER GO TO SCHOOL


View Profile
« Reply #580 on: September 29, 2013, 02:27:07 AM »

Not sure how an acapella mix or an instrumental mix is an "outfake" (a term which should not exist).
Logged

Tell me it's okay.
Tell me you still love me.
People make mistakes.
People make mistakes.
Freddie French-Pounce
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1524


A.K.A. mrmoustachioto


View Profile
« Reply #581 on: September 29, 2013, 03:07:28 AM »

I suppose Sail Plane Song [2012 Mix] and Rock n' Roll Music [2012 Mix] are 'outfakes' in this case
Logged

Brian Wilson - He's Gonna Eat Ya!!!

Check out my friend and I's 2-Piece UK Garage Rock band here! : https://www.facebook.com/hypnotici/

Hear me, Freddie, Slaughter The Beach Boys [inc. SMiLE] here! : http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14121.msg312233.html#msg312233
- "I laughed so hard I disturbed my work place." - pixeltwin
Cabinessenceking
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2087


View Profile
« Reply #582 on: September 29, 2013, 03:26:56 AM »

Transcendental Meditiation instrumental is hardly an unreleased trakc. It certainly is an undesired one however. Can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it's inclusion was a good choice. Alarmbells should be ringing.
Logged
drbeachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5214



View Profile
« Reply #583 on: September 29, 2013, 05:54:52 AM »

Transcendental Meditiation instrumental is hardly an unreleased trakc. It certainly is an undesired one however. Can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it's inclusion was a good choice. Alarmbells should be ringing.
I don't mind it being on there. It is a great piece of music. It's Brian being very un-Brian. It's cool! Wink
Logged

The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2868



View Profile
« Reply #584 on: September 29, 2013, 07:47:17 AM »

Transcendental Meditiation instrumental is hardly an unreleased trakc. It certainly is an undesired one however. Can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it's inclusion was a good choice. Alarmbells should be ringing.

Linett on the TM backing track:

"When I transferred Transcendental Meditation I heard it and gained a new appreciation for the backing track. It’s got an interesting jazz feel and thought it would be a nice addition for the box."

Seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?
Logged
John Manning
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7426


Get your hands offa my radishes!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #585 on: September 29, 2013, 08:43:12 AM »

Transcendental Meditiation instrumental is hardly an unreleased trakc. It certainly is an undesired one however. Can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it's inclusion was a good choice. Alarmbells should be ringing.

Linett on the TM backing track:

"When I transferred Transcendental Meditation I heard it and gained a new appreciation for the backing track. It’s got an interesting jazz feel and thought it would be a nice addition for the box."

Seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?

Absolutely. I'm a cynical ol' git by nature but his box has taught me to open my mind a little more… if I don't understand the logic of a particular track's inclusion, I listen a little closer and discover something new. This is a fine box, all the way through.
Logged

Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions…
Disney Boy (1985)
Guest
« Reply #586 on: September 29, 2013, 11:40:28 AM »

Transcendental Meditiation instrumental is hardly an unreleased trakc. It certainly is an undesired one however. Can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it's inclusion was a good choice. Alarmbells should be ringing.

Couldn't agree less. I think it's great that they gave us backing tracks to less-celebrated songs such as TM and Don't Go Near The Water rather than just going for more obvious choices - to me it made me see both songs in a new, fresh light. TM is great - in fact, I think they should've just released it on the album as an instrumental. And the DGNTW backing track is great - so much invention! I particularly like the guitar riff that kicks in towards the end.
Logged
PhilCohen
Guest
« Reply #587 on: September 29, 2013, 04:34:12 PM »

I suppose Sail Plane Song [2012 Mix] and Rock n' Roll Music [2012 Mix] are 'outfakes' in this case

No, I don't consider those two to be "Out-Fakes". The mix of "Rock n'Roll Music" DOES provide unreleased material, even if it is only one verse.
Logged
PhilCohen
Guest
« Reply #588 on: September 29, 2013, 06:53:34 PM »

Not sure how an acapella mix or an instrumental mix is an "outfake" (a term which should not exist).

What I'm refering to(and the term "Out-Fake" wasn't invented by me; it originally referred to some of the mixes/composites created for The Beatles' "Anthology" CD sets) is manipulating the multitrack tapes of an already released performance to create a "new"(previously unreleased) version by adding or subtracting vocal or instrumental elements during a new remix.
Logged
Jim V.
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2909



View Profile
« Reply #589 on: September 29, 2013, 06:56:38 PM »

I suppose Sail Plane Song [2012 Mix] and Rock n' Roll Music [2012 Mix] are 'outfakes' in this case

No, I don't consider those two to be "Out-Fakes". The mix of "Rock n'Roll Music" DOES provide unreleased material, even if it is only one verse.

So let me get this clear...you don't consider a song that was likely edited by Mark Linett in 2012 to be an "outfake", but an instrumental track is an outfake.

And by the way, Jimi Hendrix is dead. He can not choose what tracks go on his collections. However, the main songwriter of most of the newly released songs is Brian Wilson, he's still here, and he can do what he see's fit with his music.
Logged
PhilCohen
Guest
« Reply #590 on: September 29, 2013, 07:52:18 PM »

I suppose Sail Plane Song [2012 Mix] and Rock n' Roll Music [2012 Mix] are 'outfakes' in this case

No, I don't consider those two to be "Out-Fakes". The mix of "Rock n'Roll Music" DOES provide unreleased material, even if it is only one verse.

So let me get this clear...you don't consider a song that was likely edited by Mark Linett in 2012 to be an "outfake", but an instrumental track is an outfake.

And by the way, Jimi Hendrix is dead. He can not choose what tracks go on his collections. However, the main songwriter of most of the newly released songs is Brian Wilson, he's still here, and he can do what he see's fit with his music.

Brian didn't remix anything for "Made in California", and may not have even been present for many of these mixes. Mark Linett did the mixing. Brian's only input was to either approve or veto these mixes. Yes, some of you will remind me that Brian WAS present for the "Pet Sounds" stereo mixes in the 1990's, but there is nothing to suggest that Brian was deeply involved (or indeed present) for any of Mark Linett's subsequent remixing projects. But......here we go again. Any discussion here on this forum soon turns into a hostile thing. The boxed set has now been released. It could have been better, it could have been much worse, but none of our discussions will make any difference now.  I don't have any further comments, and many of you guys opposed my return to the forum. Good luck to you. I'm going to focus my energies elsewhere. Nothing that you or I will say here will have any impact on whether or not there will be any more Beach Boys audio or video archival projects.
Logged
Gertie J.
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1008


View Profile
« Reply #591 on: September 29, 2013, 07:57:36 PM »

hasta la vista
Logged

dj, blogger, and hanger-on
Jim V.
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2909



View Profile
« Reply #592 on: September 29, 2013, 08:42:24 PM »

I suppose Sail Plane Song [2012 Mix] and Rock n' Roll Music [2012 Mix] are 'outfakes' in this case

No, I don't consider those two to be "Out-Fakes". The mix of "Rock n'Roll Music" DOES provide unreleased material, even if it is only one verse.

So let me get this clear...you don't consider a song that was likely edited by Mark Linett in 2012 to be an "outfake", but an instrumental track is an outfake.

And by the way, Jimi Hendrix is dead. He can not choose what tracks go on his collections. However, the main songwriter of most of the newly released songs is Brian Wilson, he's still here, and he can do what he see's fit with his music.

Brian didn't remix anything for "Made in California", and may not have even been present for many of these mixes. Mark Linett did the mixing. Brian's only input was to either approve or veto these mixes. Yes, some of you will remind me that Brian WAS present for the "Pet Sounds" stereo mixes in the 1990's, but there is nothing to suggest that Brian was deeply involved (or indeed present) for any of Mark Linett's subsequent remixing projects. But......here we go again. Any discussion here on this forum soon turns into a hostile thing. The boxed set has now been released. It could have been better, it could have been much worse, but none of our discussions will make any difference now.  I don't have any further comments, and many of you guys opposed my return to the forum. Good luck to you. I'm going to focus my energies elsewhere. Nothing that you or I will say here will have any impact on whether or not there will be any more Beach Boys audio or video archival projects.

Once again, you just willingly misunderstand. I'm just saying Brian is here to okay the sh*t. Jimi isn't. Makes a huge difference in my book. Same thing with The Beatles "outfakes." Paul, George, and Ringo approved them, and they were the artists, so they're acceptable to me.
Logged
Jesse Reiswig
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 156


View Profile
« Reply #593 on: September 30, 2013, 06:11:25 AM »

To be fair, I do think you guys were a little hostile to Phil. I realize that this is based on the memory of past behaviors, but give the guy a chance. He was only speaking rationally here!
Logged
Eric Aniversario
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1847


Keep the Summer Alive!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #594 on: September 30, 2013, 09:52:00 AM »

Transcendental Meditiation instrumental is hardly an unreleased trakc. It certainly is an undesired one however. Can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it's inclusion was a good choice. Alarmbells should be ringing.

Couldn't agree less. I think it's great that they gave us backing tracks to less-celebrated songs such as TM and Don't Go Near The Water rather than just going for more obvious choices - to me it made me see both songs in a new, fresh light. TM is great - in fact, I think they should've just released it on the album as an instrumental. And the DGNTW backing track is great - so much invention! I particularly like the guitar riff that kicks in towards the end.

Some here might think I'm joking, but I would have LOVED to hear the backing track to matchpoint of our love!
Logged
John Manning
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7426


Get your hands offa my radishes!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #595 on: September 30, 2013, 10:07:09 AM »

Finally, a month after the release of "Made in California", you guys decided to un-ban me. Am I particularly upset over the 2 seconds of silence preceding each song on "Disc 3"? Not really, as long as the music is all there. (actually, the skip on "Disc 4" of Bob Dylan's "Another Self-Portrait" box bugs me more.) How do I rate the song selection? Well, considering how much unreleased 1970's Beach Boys songs there are(though some are cover versions), the compilers could have included more 1970's vault tracks.

Obviously, further vault material is being held back to (possibly) create future archival projects. It's the same marketing strategy which has been successful for the Jimi Hendrix estate. And like the Hendrix estate, the creation of occasional "Out-Fakes" is a way to make a dwindling supply of vault material last longer. For The Beach Boys, the "Out-Fakes" include A Capella mixes, instrumental mixes etc. . For the Hendrix estate, the Out-Fakes are ProTools confections that involve "Flying In" already released vocal performances onto previously unreleased instrumental performances.

And, as with the Hendrix estate, The Beach Boys play very loosely with the term "previously unreleased". To me, adding a bit of session talk before an already released performance does NOT constitute a previously unreleased track.

Still, the stereo remix of "Do It Again" is worth the price of the boxed set.

Do I believe that "Made in California" will be the final Beach Boys boxed set? Yes, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of future one disc or two disc CD or DVD projects....if the feuding Beach Boys can agree.

All commonsense stuff, really…

Still, the stereo remix of "Do It Again" is worth the price of the boxed set.

… and there's more positivity in that statement than many posters have managed to drag from their hearts.  Yet Phil's been needlessly run to ground within 48 hours of his return.  And that's a shame.
Logged

Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions…
Disney Boy (1985)
Guest
« Reply #596 on: September 30, 2013, 12:24:31 PM »

I suppose Sail Plane Song [2012 Mix] and Rock n' Roll Music [2012 Mix] are 'outfakes' in this case

No, I don't consider those two to be "Out-Fakes". The mix of "Rock n'Roll Music" DOES provide unreleased material, even if it is only one verse.

So let me get this clear...you don't consider a song that was likely edited by Mark Linett in 2012 to be an "outfake", but an instrumental track is an outfake.

And by the way, Jimi Hendrix is dead. He can not choose what tracks go on his collections. However, the main songwriter of most of the newly released songs is Brian Wilson, he's still here, and he can do what he see's fit with his music.

Brian didn't remix anything for "Made in California", and may not have even been present for many of these mixes. Mark Linett did the mixing. Brian's only input was to either approve or veto these mixes. Yes, some of you will remind me that Brian WAS present for the "Pet Sounds" stereo mixes in the 1990's, but there is nothing to suggest that Brian was deeply involved (or indeed present) for any of Mark Linett's subsequent remixing projects. But......here we go again. Any discussion here on this forum soon turns into a hostile thing. The boxed set has now been released. It could have been better, it could have been much worse, but none of our discussions will make any difference now.  I don't have any further comments, and many of you guys opposed my return to the forum. Good luck to you. I'm going to focus my energies elsewhere. Nothing that you or I will say here will have any impact on whether or not there will be any more Beach Boys audio or video archival projects.

Is this the same Phil who repeatedly insisted - over and over and over again in a deliberate attempt to wind everyone up - that the box-set was never actually going to appear in the first place? And when anyone directly questioned him about his comments he'd just willfully ignore what they'd said and continue making intentionally provocative comments?

Not saying that's what he's doing now, just curious as to whether it's the same unusual guy... 
Logged
sockittome
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 842


View Profile
« Reply #597 on: September 30, 2013, 04:35:39 PM »

Finally, a month after the release of "Made in California", you guys decided to un-ban me. Am I particularly upset over the 2 seconds of silence preceding each song on "Disc 3"? Not really, as long as the music is all there. (actually, the skip on "Disc 4" of Bob Dylan's "Another Self-Portrait" box bugs me more.) How do I rate the song selection? Well, considering how much unreleased 1970's Beach Boys songs there are(though some are cover versions), the compilers could have included more 1970's vault tracks.

Obviously, further vault material is being held back to (possibly) create future archival projects. It's the same marketing strategy which has been successful for the Jimi Hendrix estate. And like the Hendrix estate, the creation of occasional "Out-Fakes" is a way to make a dwindling supply of vault material last longer. For The Beach Boys, the "Out-Fakes" include A Capella mixes, instrumental mixes etc. . For the Hendrix estate, the Out-Fakes are ProTools confections that involve "Flying In" already released vocal performances onto previously unreleased instrumental performances.

And, as with the Hendrix estate, The Beach Boys play very loosely with the term "previously unreleased". To me, adding a bit of session talk before an already released performance does NOT constitute a previously unreleased track.

Still, the stereo remix of "Do It Again" is worth the price of the boxed set.

Do I believe that "Made in California" will be the final Beach Boys boxed set? Yes, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of future one disc or two disc CD or DVD projects....if the feuding Beach Boys can agree.

All commonsense stuff, really…

Still, the stereo remix of "Do It Again" is worth the price of the boxed set.

… and there's more positivity in that statement than many posters have managed to drag from their hearts.  Yet Phil's been needlessly run to ground within 48 hours of his return.  And that's a shame.


Phil was actually doing pretty good there for a short time in his post, until he started throwing the "out-fakes" terminology around and it kinda soured things.  "Out-fakes" is a really negative term, and IMO it's not a very accurate description of the alternate remixes.  "Fake" implies fraud of some sort. 

So yeah, there's going to be a negative reaction to such comments.
Logged
John Manning
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7426


Get your hands offa my radishes!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #598 on: September 30, 2013, 07:00:30 PM »

"Out fakes" is pretty mild compared to what most folk don't get jumped on for.

But hey-ho… (I don't know "hey-ho" what)
Logged

Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions, Unadulterated Bedroom Sessions…
Ram4
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 317


View Profile
« Reply #599 on: September 30, 2013, 08:48:23 PM »

Phil - Just about all of the fan mixes of Smile are outfakes as you call them.  On the official Smile there are outfakes.  I don't have a problem with them.  ANY song with an overdub is technically an outfake by that logic.  I know you are among the people that cry foul on the Beatles Anthology outfakes.  But let's not forget that plenty of the released tracks from the 60's were also the same thing.  Strawberry Fields Forever has to be the biggest outfake of all time.  It's two songs fused together and both are in different tempos and keys.  I bet you love that song, and yet if it they dared try that today track, you'd scream bloody murder.   Again, I don't have a problem with it. 

If they could make a song out of what's laying around for something like Lonely Days and turn it into a 2 or 3 minute track that feels like it was completed back in 1967, then I am all for it.

I have a MIC gripe - I feel the official release mix of Good Time (on Love You) pales in comparison to the original 1970 mix.  I really wished they had used the Desper one for MIC - glad it circulates in pristine quality on boots.  I still hold out hope for a special expanded Sunflower release in the near future with things like Big Sur, Walkin', the alternate Add Some Music, etc.
Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 21 22 23 [24] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 1.257 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!