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Author Topic: MiC Song/Tracklisting Discussion Thread  (Read 23198 times)
Vegetable Man
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« on: August 07, 2013, 02:22:54 PM »

There's a general discussion thread, a price discussion thread, but there isn't a thread for the music of MiC (and isn't that what this is all about?). It's probably a little early yet, but I figured we could use a thread where people could discuss the tracklisting, the unreleased songs (once we hear them), the songs that made it, the ones that didn't, etc. I know some of this has been going on in the "Amazon" thread, but it's been getting cluttered recently, so now we've got this to go to. I hope this will work out. Enjoy discussing the music.
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 02:26:30 PM »

I thought you were posting a link to samples. Phooey!  Cry
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 02:29:40 PM »

I thought you were posting a link to samples. Phooey!  Cry
Sad Sorry. Didn't mean to lead you on.
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »

I thought you were posting a link to samples. Phooey!  Cry
Sad Sorry. Didn't mean to lead you on.

I've heard that one before.
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 07:23:19 PM »

Talked to a guy on Twitter who's heard the whole thing. This is what he had to say about "My Love Lives On":

"Finally got to "My Love Lives On." Very stark, very rough, and not just because it's Dennis and a piano..."

"Dennis sounds ragged and very alone, but there's an unmistakable tenderness and vulnerability. Painful, but in a good way."
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 07:33:35 PM »

I don't know I guess I'm not as excited as most on here at the prospect of this box set's imminent release.  I'm not trying to rain on any parades or throw cool water on the fire (see what I did there?  Grin) but to be quite honest with the exception of a few gold bars here and there, the box set is really a rehash of what most of us already have in our collections.  That is to be expected and I have my copy of MIC already on pre-order but I'm actually more excited about the packaging at this point than the music itself.  As I mentioned way back when I guess I'm envious of the consumer who is going to buy this box set as their initiation into The Beach Boys' catalog.

You know that moment we no doubt all experienced when the music is all fresh and mind-blowing?  Yeah definitely envious of those who will be picking up this package with that frame of mind going in.
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 07:40:21 PM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

1. Surfers Rule (with Session Intro)
2. I Get Around (with Session Intro - Mono)
3. Amusement Parks USA (Early Version)
4. Graduation Day (Session Excerpt and Master Take, 2012 Mix)
5. Vega-Tables ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
6. Wind Chimes ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
7. The Elements: Fire ("Smile Sessions" Mix - Mono) maybe
8. Country Air (2012 Stereo Mix)
9. Meant For You (Alternate Version)
10. Sail Plane Song (2012 Stereo Mix)
11. Susie Cincinnati (2012 Mix) sorta
12. Sound Of Free (Mono Single Version)
13. Rock And Roll Music (2012 Mix w/Extra Verse)
14. It's OK (Alternate Mix)
15. It's Over Now (Alternate Mix)
16. California Feelin'
17. It's A Beautiful Day (Single Edit) (2012 Mix) ?
18. Goin' To The Beach
19. Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love
20. Da Doo Ron Ron
21. Soul Searchin'
22. You're Still A Mystery
23. Runaway (Chicago 1965 -- w/Concert Promo Intro - Mono)
24. You're So Good To Me (Paris 1966 - Mono)
25. The Letter (Hawaii Rehearsal 1967)
26. Friends (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
27. Little Bird (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
28. All I Want To Do (London 1968) (Kinda released on Rarities CD)
29. Help Me, Rhonda (New Jersey 1972)
30. Wild Honey (New Jersey 1972)
31. Only With You (New York 1972)
32. It's About Time (Chicago 1973)
33. I Can Hear Music (Maryland 1975)
34. Vegetables (New York 1993)
35. Wonderful (New York 1993)
36. Sail On Sailor (Louisville 1995)
37. Summer In Paradise (Wembley 1993)
38. Slip On Through (A Cappella Mix)
39. Don't Worry Baby (Stereo Session Outtake w/ Alternate Lead Vocal)
40. Pom Pom Play Girl (Vocal Session Highlight)
41. Guess I'm Dumb (Instrumental Track w/Background Vocals)
42. Sherry She Needs Me (1965 Track w/1976 Vocal)
43. Mona Kana (Instrumental Track)
44. This Whole World (A Cappella)
45. Where Is She?
46. Had To Phone Ya (Instrumental Track)
47. Good Vibrations (Stereo Track Sections)
48. Be With Me (Demo)
49. I Believe In Miracles (Vocal Section)
50. Why (Instrumental Track)
51. Barnyard Blues
52. Don't Go Near The Water (Instrumental Track)
53. You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling
54. Transcendental Meditation (Instrumental Track)
55. Our Sweet Love (Vocals w/Strings)
56. Back Home (1970 Version)
57. California Feelin' (Original Demo)
58. California Girls ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
59. Help You, Rhonda ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
60. Surf's Up (1967 Version) (2012 Mix)
61. My Love Lives On
62. Wendy (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
63. When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
64. Hushabye (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
65. (Wouldn't it Be Nice to) Live Again
66. Back Home (1963)
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 07:59:39 PM »

I don't know I guess I'm not as excited as most on here at the prospect of this box set's imminent release.  I'm not trying to rain on any parades or throw cool water on the fire (see what I did there?  Grin) but to be quite honest with the exception of a few gold bars here and there, the box set is really a rehash of what most of us already have in our collections.  That is to be expected and I have my copy of MIC already on pre-order but I'm actually more excited about the packaging at this point than the music itself.  As I mentioned way back when I guess I'm envious of the consumer who is going to buy this box set as their initiation into The Beach Boys' catalog.

You know that moment we no doubt all experienced when the music is all fresh and mind-blowing?  Yeah definitely envious of those who will be picking up this package with that frame of mind going in.

I am also stoked about the package - yearbooks are very cool and I still have mine from both primary and secondary school
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 05:18:15 AM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

1. Surfers Rule (with Session Intro)
2. I Get Around (with Session Intro - Mono)
3. Amusement Parks USA (Early Version)
4. Graduation Day (Session Excerpt and Master Take, 2012 Mix)
5. Vega-Tables ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
6. Wind Chimes ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
7. The Elements: Fire ("Smile Sessions" Mix - Mono) maybe
8. Country Air (2012 Stereo Mix)
9. Meant For You (Alternate Version)
10. Sail Plane Song (2012 Stereo Mix)
11. Susie Cincinnati (2012 Mix) sorta
12. Sound Of Free (Mono Single Version)
13. Rock And Roll Music (2012 Mix w/Extra Verse)
14. It's OK (Alternate Mix)
15. It's Over Now (Alternate Mix)
16. California Feelin'
17. It's A Beautiful Day (Single Edit) (2012 Mix) ?
18. Goin' To The Beach
19. Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love
20. Da Doo Ron Ron
21. Soul Searchin'
22. You're Still A Mystery
23. Runaway (Chicago 1965 -- w/Concert Promo Intro - Mono)
24. You're So Good To Me (Paris 1966 - Mono)
25. The Letter (Hawaii Rehearsal 1967)
26. Friends (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
27. Little Bird (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
28. All I Want To Do (London 1968) (Kinda released on Rarities CD)
29. Help Me, Rhonda (New Jersey 1972)
30. Wild Honey (New Jersey 1972)
31. Only With You (New York 1972)
32. It's About Time (Chicago 1973)
33. I Can Hear Music (Maryland 1975)
34. Vegetables (New York 1993)
35. Wonderful (New York 1993)
36. Sail On Sailor (Louisville 1995)
37. Summer In Paradise (Wembley 1993)
38. Slip On Through (A Cappella Mix)
39. Don't Worry Baby (Stereo Session Outtake w/ Alternate Lead Vocal)
40. Pom Pom Play Girl (Vocal Session Highlight)
41. Guess I'm Dumb (Instrumental Track w/Background Vocals)
42. Sherry She Needs Me (1965 Track w/1976 Vocal)
43. Mona Kana (Instrumental Track)
44. This Whole World (A Cappella)
45. Where Is She?
46. Had To Phone Ya (Instrumental Track)
47. Good Vibrations (Stereo Track Sections)
48. Be With Me (Demo)
49. I Believe In Miracles (Vocal Section)
50. Why (Instrumental Track)
51. Barnyard Blues
52. Don't Go Near The Water (Instrumental Track)
53. You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling
54. Transcendental Meditation (Instrumental Track)
55. Our Sweet Love (Vocals w/Strings)
56. Back Home (1970 Version)
57. California Feelin' (Original Demo)
58. California Girls ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
59. Help You, Rhonda ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
60. Surf's Up (1967 Version) (2012 Mix)
61. My Love Lives On
62. Wendy (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
63. When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
64. Hushabye (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
65. (Wouldn't it Be Nice to) Live Again


Which ones are people excited about?  (Apart from WIBNTLA; too obvious).

I'm probably most excited about getting a (hopefully) clean sounding version of "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling."  I love Brian's production on it, but I've never heard it with good sound quality.

The Dennis track that I'm actually probably most excited about is "Barnyard Blues" because I like a lot of his rockier songs and I've heard almost nothing about this one.

Being fond as I am of the Wild Honey album, I'm looking forward to the stereo mix of "Country Air" and the live version of "Wild Honey" with Blondie on the lead.

The live versions of "Friends," "Little Bird," "Only With You," and "It's About Time" will also be welcome.  It would have been nice to see some live versions of Love You songs like "Roller Skating Child" or "Honking Down the Highway," but I guess we can't have everything.
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 07:04:38 AM »

I'm probably most excited about Brian's solo demo of "California Feelin'".  I've always liked that song and was disappointed just slightly that they "Anthology 2'd" the group version of the song.  So it's nice that we'll have a (presumably) untouched demo available on this set as well.  I'm curious about the wording on the "Don't Worry Baby" outtake as well.  An alternate version of the song could be a revelation as for years this was one of those session tapes that went missing.  But the phrasing of the description worries me slightly and I wonder if we are going to get a brief sound bite of say the chorus or something with some studio chatter both preceding and tailing it.
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 07:09:58 AM »

I'm really looking forward to the live tracks, because I like live recordings, from any band. Runaway for example. Al on lead and Brian on falsetto? Yes please!

Furthermore:

- WIBNTLA (duh!)
- Back Home (both versions)
- Do It Again (stereo mix)
- Slip On Through (acapella mix)
etc.
etc.

Ah heck, I want it all and I want it now :D
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 07:17:17 AM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

Songs from the "Smile Sessions' are not exclusive to this set.  Neither are all the songs already on bootlegs.
"Making their first official appearance," perhaps, but not "exclusive to this box set."

The collection is incomplete for a career retrospective.  When I get mine, I'm going to put
together my own 6 disc set of what my ideal "Made in California" box set would have included since it
is the 50th anniversary..  They need a catch-all, and this isn't it.
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« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 07:21:43 AM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:
When I get mine, I'm going to put together my own 6 disc set of what my ideal "Made in California" box set would have included

You and 95% of the rest of the board my friend.  I'm guessing this is the second thing that every diehard is going to do once they get this box into their hot little hands.  The first being making a backup safety copy of it in case the original discs happen to get scratched/eventually become prone to disc rot and the myriad of other things us obsessive compulsives worry about.  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2013, 07:40:18 AM »

Always most interested to hear stuff we've never heard before in any way, shape or form. My top 5 (in order):

1. (WIBN) TLA
2. My Love Lives On
3. Where Is She?
4. Barnyard Blues
5. Meant for You (Alternate version)
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« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2013, 08:27:41 AM »

After I listen to the whole thing from start to finish I will finish my own personal take on Landlocked by adding Sound of Free and WIBNTLA.

Then maybe I will take all the goodies from Hawthorne, GV box, etc.. and make a Monster in California set.  Afro
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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 08:30:12 AM »

I will definitely create a couple of new mixtapes (using newly released tracks off MiC) for people to get into their more 'artistic'/later stuff.
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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 09:22:53 AM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:
When I get mine, I'm going to put together my own 6 disc set of what my ideal "Made in California" box set would have included

The first being making a backup safety copy of it in case the original discs happen to get scratched/eventually become prone to disc rot and the myriad of other things us obsessive compulsives worry about.  Grin

That's why I bought two.  One will stay wrapped.
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 09:52:35 AM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

1. Surfers Rule (with Session Intro)
2. I Get Around (with Session Intro - Mono)
3. Amusement Parks USA (Early Version)
4. Graduation Day (Session Excerpt and Master Take, 2012 Mix)
5. Vega-Tables ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
6. Wind Chimes ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
7. The Elements: Fire ("Smile Sessions" Mix - Mono) maybe
8. Country Air (2012 Stereo Mix)
9. Meant For You (Alternate Version)
10. Sail Plane Song (2012 Stereo Mix)
11. Susie Cincinnati (2012 Mix) sorta
12. Sound Of Free (Mono Single Version)
13. Rock And Roll Music (2012 Mix w/Extra Verse)
14. It's OK (Alternate Mix)
15. It's Over Now (Alternate Mix)
16. California Feelin'
17. It's A Beautiful Day (Single Edit) (2012 Mix) ?
18. Goin' To The Beach
19. Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love
20. Da Doo Ron Ron
21. Soul Searchin'
22. You're Still A Mystery
23. Runaway (Chicago 1965 -- w/Concert Promo Intro - Mono)
24. You're So Good To Me (Paris 1966 - Mono)
25. The Letter (Hawaii Rehearsal 1967)
26. Friends (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
27. Little Bird (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
28. All I Want To Do (London 1968) (Kinda released on Rarities CD)
29. Help Me, Rhonda (New Jersey 1972)
30. Wild Honey (New Jersey 1972)
31. Only With You (New York 1972)
32. It's About Time (Chicago 1973)
33. I Can Hear Music (Maryland 1975)
34. Vegetables (New York 1993)
35. Wonderful (New York 1993)
36. Sail On Sailor (Louisville 1995)
37. Summer In Paradise (Wembley 1993)
38. Slip On Through (A Cappella Mix)
39. Don't Worry Baby (Stereo Session Outtake w/ Alternate Lead Vocal)
40. Pom Pom Play Girl (Vocal Session Highlight)
41. Guess I'm Dumb (Instrumental Track w/Background Vocals)
42. Sherry She Needs Me (1965 Track w/1976 Vocal)
43. Mona Kana (Instrumental Track)
44. This Whole World (A Cappella)
45. Where Is She?
46. Had To Phone Ya (Instrumental Track)
47. Good Vibrations (Stereo Track Sections)
48. Be With Me (Demo)
49. I Believe In Miracles (Vocal Section)
50. Why (Instrumental Track)
51. Barnyard Blues
52. Don't Go Near The Water (Instrumental Track)
53. You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling
54. Transcendental Meditation (Instrumental Track)
55. Our Sweet Love (Vocals w/Strings)
56. Back Home (1970 Version)
57. California Feelin' (Original Demo)
58. California Girls ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
59. Help You, Rhonda ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
60. Surf's Up (1967 Version) (2012 Mix)
61. My Love Lives On
62. Wendy (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
63. When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
64. Hushabye (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
65. (Wouldn't it Be Nice to) Live Again


Which ones are people excited about?  (Apart from WIBNTLA; too obvious).

I'm probably most excited about getting a (hopefully) clean sounding version of "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling."  I love Brian's production on it, but I've never heard it with good sound quality.

The Dennis track that I'm actually probably most excited about is "Barnyard Blues" because I like a lot of his rockier songs and I've heard almost nothing about this one.

Being fond as I am of the Wild Honey album, I'm looking forward to the stereo mix of "Country Air" and the live version of "Wild Honey" with Blondie on the lead.

The live versions of "Friends," "Little Bird," "Only With You," and "It's About Time" will also be welcome.  It would have been nice to see some live versions of Love You songs like "Roller Skating Child" or "Honking Down the Highway," but I guess we can't have everything.

Looking most forward to Soul Searchin

Carl's vocal is great and the "oh, oh, ohooo" on the second verse is Beach Boys at its finest.

Obviously the Dennis compositions are eagerly anticipated as well as demo for CalFeelin.

Why Do They Let Us Fall In Love? is also high on my list. Only a pity that River Deep - Mountain High didn't make the cut.
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 11:02:17 AM »

Ya know..something else that just occurred to me while looking at the box set tracklist...

Being that they're putting "Good Time" back into it's chronologically-correct place, I wonder if they're going to use the original (unreleased but heavily booted) Desper stereo mix of the track, vs. the later Love You one? My own uneducated guess would be "quite possibly" -- even though they don't specify it in the press-released tracklist. Thus, that *might* be one more exclusive track/mix to the set.


Or not.
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 11:12:48 AM »

Always most interested to hear stuff we've never heard before in any way, shape or form. My top 5 (in order):

1. (WIBN) TLA
2. My Love Lives On
3. Where Is She?
4. Barnyard Blues
5. Meant for You (Alternate version)

Coco, without sayng too much, my guess is this will still be your Top 5 a month from now, although possibly in a slightly different order.  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 01:07:10 PM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

Songs from the "Smile Sessions' are not exclusive to this set.  Neither are all the songs already on bootlegs.
"Making their first official appearance," perhaps, but not "exclusive to this box set."

Yer splittin' hairs, here. Listen to "California Feelin'" versus the original bootlegged version - night and day difference, in terms of sound quality. This kinda seems to come from the "But we already have that! I want something else!" mentality behind releases that include previously bootlegged material, which I can't get behind when the quality level is so drastically different.
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 01:15:17 PM »

You can't really blame the compilers for things that have been released on boots anyway, seems moot to me.
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 01:27:58 PM »

Why Do They Let Us Fall In Love? is also high on my list. Only a pity that River Deep - Mountain High didn't make the cut.

Probably because Brian's vocal was never completed, I'd wager. But for what's there, it's one of Brian's better vocals from the period. It just sucks that the leaked version was completely f***ed with...that's what you get when you convert lossless to mp3 to mp3 to mp3 to mp3 to mp3...and so on. It's a wonder you can hear ANYTHING under the digital noise.

I'd love to hear more of those tracks eventually; apparently Brian and Michael put down quite a few tracks at those sessions.
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 01:31:47 PM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

1. Surfers Rule (with Session Intro)
2. I Get Around (with Session Intro - Mono)
3. Amusement Parks USA (Early Version)
4. Graduation Day (Session Excerpt and Master Take, 2012 Mix)
5. Vega-Tables ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
6. Wind Chimes ("Smile Sessions" Stereo Mix)
7. The Elements: Fire ("Smile Sessions" Mix - Mono) maybe
8. Country Air (2012 Stereo Mix)
9. Meant For You (Alternate Version)
10. Sail Plane Song (2012 Stereo Mix)
11. Susie Cincinnati (2012 Mix) sorta
12. Sound Of Free (Mono Single Version)
13. Rock And Roll Music (2012 Mix w/Extra Verse)
14. It's OK (Alternate Mix)
15. It's Over Now (Alternate Mix)
16. California Feelin'
17. It's A Beautiful Day (Single Edit) (2012 Mix) ?
18. Goin' To The Beach
19. Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love
20. Da Doo Ron Ron
21. Soul Searchin'
22. You're Still A Mystery
23. Runaway (Chicago 1965 -- w/Concert Promo Intro - Mono)
24. You're So Good To Me (Paris 1966 - Mono)
25. The Letter (Hawaii Rehearsal 1967)
26. Friends (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
27. Little Bird (Chicago 1968 - Mono)
28. All I Want To Do (London 1968) (Kinda released on Rarities CD)
29. Help Me, Rhonda (New Jersey 1972)
30. Wild Honey (New Jersey 1972)
31. Only With You (New York 1972)
32. It's About Time (Chicago 1973)
33. I Can Hear Music (Maryland 1975)
34. Vegetables (New York 1993)
35. Wonderful (New York 1993)
36. Sail On Sailor (Louisville 1995)
37. Summer In Paradise (Wembley 1993)
38. Slip On Through (A Cappella Mix)
39. Don't Worry Baby (Stereo Session Outtake w/ Alternate Lead Vocal)
40. Pom Pom Play Girl (Vocal Session Highlight)
41. Guess I'm Dumb (Instrumental Track w/Background Vocals)
42. Sherry She Needs Me (1965 Track w/1976 Vocal)
43. Mona Kana (Instrumental Track)
44. This Whole World (A Cappella)
45. Where Is She?
46. Had To Phone Ya (Instrumental Track)
47. Good Vibrations (Stereo Track Sections)
48. Be With Me (Demo)
49. I Believe In Miracles (Vocal Section)
50. Why (Instrumental Track)
51. Barnyard Blues
52. Don't Go Near The Water (Instrumental Track)
53. You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling
54. Transcendental Meditation (Instrumental Track)
55. Our Sweet Love (Vocals w/Strings)
56. Back Home (1970 Version)
57. California Feelin' (Original Demo)
58. California Girls ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
59. Help You, Rhonda ("Lei'd In Hawaii" Studio Version)
60. Surf's Up (1967 Version) (2012 Mix)
61. My Love Lives On
62. Wendy (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
63. When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
64. Hushabye (BBC -- Live in the Studio 1964 - Mono)
65. (Wouldn't it Be Nice to) Live Again


You missed Back Home original version my man.
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Jim V.
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »

In reference to John's post, here are the songs that are exclusive to this box set:

Songs from the "Smile Sessions' are not exclusive to this set.  Neither are all the songs already on bootlegs.
"Making their first official appearance," perhaps, but not "exclusive to this box set."

Yer splittin' hairs, here. Listen to "California Feelin'" versus the original bootlegged version - night and day difference, in terms of sound quality. This kinda seems to come from the "But we already have that! I want something else!" mentality behind releases that include previously bootlegged material, which I can't get behind when the quality level is so drastically different.

Exactly. The Beach Boys didn't release these things before. These bootlegged things just went out there, regardless of what state they were in. So I think the group themselves, if they wanna release something, they should be allowed to, and should not have leaks held against them. I find that ridiculous.
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