Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Heysaboda]

I'd say when he's not being prodded by David Leaf saying "REMEMBER BRIAN. REMEMBER HOW MIKE BULLIED YOU AND THREATENED TO POKE YOU IN THE EYE AND CALL YOU A NITWIT IF YOU DIDN'T CANCELL SMILE AND PUT OUT 'STILL SURFIN' USA' INSTEAD", Brian will generally say "It was too advanced", too much drugs, or that he junked it because was worried people wouldn't like it, which is basically copping to it being his fault.

Will Mike take SIP with him??   

[Nicko1234]

Just curious if people think that Brian is still as determined and headstrong today as he was in 1967 when he pulled Smile without any influence from anybody.

Not in the same way.

Would the Brian in 1966 have agreed to release GIOMH?

[Heysaboda]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

Seriously, DrBB, the way I read Brian's comments in the Smile Sessions notes is that he (Brian) did take responsibility for the failure to complete Smile.  Remember how he says "my artistic heart was broken", etc.  He sure had major regrets anyway.

Just wondering also ... I'm not sure what "responsibility" he was "supposed" to take for the project's failure at the time, in your or anyone's view?

I mean, they picked up the pieces, and carried on, with some pretty incredible albums, in my opinion.  What else should they have done?

[Sheriff John Stone]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile.

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

Mike has stated over & over that he loved the music. I doubt Brian felt all that threatened by Mike's issue with the lyrics, especially after he went in and sang them beautifully. Brian's psyche was not Mike's issue. Back then, I doubt they really knew how fragile he was starting to become. It would be years before anyone fully understood all of Brian's issues. I've seen nothing to suggest that Brian was none other than Commander in Chief in the studio.

Mike has said some good things about the music many years after the fact. Was he saying those same things at the time in question - 1966-67? Like I said, based on what has been said and more importantly, what hasn't been said over the ensuing 46 years, it's hard to tell how much Mike's "issues" with the lyrics affected BRIAN'S EVOLVING OPINION OF THE LYRICS AND SMiLE. Didn't Van Dyke Parks say in some interviews (not that I trust every word HE says either) that Brian eventually started to question some SMiLE "things", which contributed to Parks' leaving. I do know that Brian has repeatedly said that he didn't think the public was ready or accepting of SMiLE at that particular time. Do you not think that Mike's (and other dissenting) opinions didn't play ANY part in Brian feeling that way? Brian could be as stubborn as anybody, but I also read that he was very influenced by what others thought about his music. There are several examples of him not wanting to release certain songs because he was unsure about them or their acceptance by the public.

If it is so hard to tell exactly what Mike or anyone was thinking then, why try to put words in his mouth now. You know nothing more about it than anybody else. Taking from what we do know, Brian was still the man in the studio and the guys were following along, planning to release Smile, good or bad.

I'm not trying to put words in Mike's mouth. I have no idea where you're going with that or why you would write that.

I don't know anything more than anybody else - and neither do you. So why would you make that comment? Excuse me if I speculate on a rock and roll message board.

I never said Brian WASN'T the man in the studio. I don't know why you would say that in reference to my post. I also never said that the guys WEREN'T following along. I don't know why you brought that up in relation to my post. I did say that Mike's objections over the lyrics COULD'VE influenced in some way. I don't see why that would be so hard to accept, or, in your case, understand.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think most everyone can understand that distinction. I guess the better question is: why should Mike have to apologize to anyone about anything regarding Smile?

[Sheriff John Stone]

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

I think he respected people's opinions but in the studio if they didn't serve his already thought out plan he ignored opinions. You hear it on the tapes. Somebody will have an opinion or suggestion, he will listen, he might even try it, he might accept it, but if it isn't in his zone he will dismiss it out of hand. He only did what he wanted, so Mike nor any of the Boys, or Capitol, influenced Brian to do anything he didn't want. Jimmy Lockert confirmed this to me.

I agree with you regarding Brian ignoring opinions and dismissing them and sometimes accepting them. But that is why I am making my point. Up to that point - 1966-67 - Brian did that, he did what he wanted, regardless of others. But with scrapping SMiLE, was he NOW listening to others, including Mike, and being influenced by their opinions? And we know there were others who weren't totally on board. Weren't some of the other Beach Boys, while not confronting Brian, having some of their own doubts? I read that Murry was making comments. How many others in the Beach Boys' circle were thinking or saying WTF? Ultimately Brian had his doubts, too. Did those doubts come completely from Brian's heart and soul, or were those doubts a product of who was talking and what were they saying? In my opinion, I think it is a no-brainer that Brian was having serious doubts and because of his need for approval (and many people have said that Brian needed approval), Brian was influenced by the people talking, at least to some degree.

All I know is what is in the interviews [including Britz] and tapes and what Jimmy Lockert told me. I mentioned Lockert because he was speaking of the period at the end of SMiLE and through the next 3 albums.  Also if they were pushing Brian to do this and that or not do this or that, why would they [according to Brian] object so hard to Brian's scrapping of the thing they were not happy with and I suppose why Smiley?

I never said that that the guys "were pushing Brian to do this or not do that". You did. I also didn't even address why they objected so hard to Brian's scrapping of SMiLE. You did. I didn't address that issue. What I did address was that Mike's "problems" with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics COULD'VE planted some doubt in Brian Wilson's mind and led to his scrapping SMiLE. Also, there is a big difference between SMiLE and Smiley Smile, including a majority of the lyrics, which Brian scrapped.

[Cam Mott]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

Except, of course, when he blames Mike Love.

Yep, except for that one time 40 years later.

Actually, does he even blame Mike in BD? Or does he say something like "Mike hated it." Anybody remember?

[Nicko1234]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

Except, of course, when he blames Mike Love.

Yep, except for that one time 40 years later.

Actually, does he even blame Mike in BD? Or does he say something like "Mike hated it." Anybody remember?

Yes, he does. Among other things I think.

[Cam Mott]

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

I think he respected people's opinions but in the studio if they didn't serve his already thought out plan he ignored opinions. You hear it on the tapes. Somebody will have an opinion or suggestion, he will listen, he might even try it, he might accept it, but if it isn't in his zone he will dismiss it out of hand. He only did what he wanted, so Mike nor any of the Boys, or Capitol, influenced Brian to do anything he didn't want. Jimmy Lockert confirmed this to me.

I agree with you regarding Brian ignoring opinions and dismissing them and sometimes accepting them. But that is why I am making my point. Up to that point - 1966-67 - Brian did that, he did what he wanted, regardless of others. But with scrapping SMiLE, was he NOW listening to others, including Mike, and being influenced by their opinions? And we know there were others who weren't totally on board. Weren't some of the other Beach Boys, while not confronting Brian, having some of their own doubts? I read that Murry was making comments. How many others in the Beach Boys' circle were thinking or saying WTF? Ultimately Brian had his doubts, too. Did those doubts come completely from Brian's heart and soul, or were those doubts a product of who was talking and what were they saying? In my opinion, I think it is a no-brainer that Brian was having serious doubts and because of his need for approval (and many people have said that Brian needed approval), Brian was influenced by the people talking, at least to some degree.

All I know is what is in the interviews [including Britz] and tapes and what Jimmy Lockert told me. I mentioned Lockert because he was speaking of the period at the end of SMiLE and through the next 3 albums.  Also if they were pushing Brian to do this and that or not do this or that, why would they [according to Brian] object so hard to Brian's scrapping of the thing they were not happy with and I suppose why Smiley?

I never said that that the guys "were pushing Brian to do this or not do that". You did. I also didn't even address why they objected so hard to Brian's scrapping of SMiLE. You did. I didn't address that issue. What I did address was that Mike's "problems" with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics COULD'VE planted some doubt in Brian Wilson's mind and led to his scrapping SMiLE. Also, there is a big difference between SMiLE and Smiley Smile, including a majority of the lyrics, which Brian scrapped.

Who said you did?

I'm following on this: "But with scrapping SMiLE, was he NOW listening to others, including Mike, and being influenced by their opinions? And we know there were others who weren't totally on board. Weren't some of the other Beach Boys, while not confronting Brian, having some of their own doubts? I read that Murry was making comments. How many others in the Beach Boys' circle were thinking or saying WTF? Ultimately Brian had his doubts, too. Did those doubts come completely from Brian's heart and soul, or were those doubts a product of who was talking and what were they saying? In my opinion, I think it is a no-brainer that Brian was having serious doubts and because of his need for approval (and many people have said that Brian needed approval), Brian was influenced by the people talking, at least to some degree."

[Cam Mott]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

Except, of course, when he blames Mike Love.

Yep, except for that one time 40 years later.

Actually, does he even blame Mike in BD? Or does he say something like "Mike hated it." Anybody remember?

Yes, he does. Among other things I think.

Guess I'll have to watch it again.

[Mikie]

But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant. What I did address was that Mike's "problems" with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics COULD'VE planted some doubt in Brian Wilson's mind and led to his scrapping SMiLE.

There you go.  On the money.  

Mike has admitted that he didn't like the lyrics.  He confronted Van Dyke with it.  He's never apologized to Van Dyke, Brian, or anybody else for that. Even on that plane ride Mike and Van took from Big Sur to L.A. back around 1980 or whatever it was.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant. What I did address was that Mike's "problems" with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics COULD'VE planted some doubt in Brian Wilson's mind and led to his scrapping SMiLE.

There you go.  On the money.  

Mike has admitted that he didn't like the lyrics.  He confronted Van Dyke with it.  He's never apologized to Van Dyke, Brian, or anybody else for that. Even on that plane ride Mike and Van took from Big Sur to L.A. back around 1980 or whatever it was.

But why should he have to apologize for something he had basically no say in and a venture where he was little more than an employee?

If I mentioned to the president of my company that I didn't like the robo-flushing mechanisms they installed on the toilets, and then months later he dissolves the company: does this mean I'd have to apologize for the next 40 years and counting?

[drbeachboy]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

Seriously, DrBB, the way I read Brian's comments in the Smile Sessions notes is that he (Brian) did take responsibility for the failure to complete Smile.  Remember how he says "my artistic heart was broken", etc.  He sure had major regrets anyway.

Just wondering also ... I'm not sure what "responsibility" he was "supposed" to take for the project's failure at the time, in your or anyone's view?

I mean, they picked up the pieces, and carried on, with some pretty incredible albums, in my opinion.  What else should they have done?

And what of Mike, which this thread is about? This whole exercise is frankly, dumb. What's Al's responsibility? Bruce's? I agree with you that they did pick up the pieces and carry on. Again, my question was posed in response to this thread. I think the poster was trying to rouse the anti-Mike sentiment.

[Mikie]

I think the poster [original] was trying to rouse the anti-Mike sentiment.

Yeah!  I think you're right!  Let's get 'im!!!

[Mikie]

But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant. What I did address was that Mike's "problems" with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics COULD'VE planted some doubt in Brian Wilson's mind and led to his scrapping SMiLE.

There you go.  On the money.  

Mike has admitted that he didn't like the lyrics.  He confronted Van Dyke with it.  He's never apologized to Van Dyke, Brian, or anybody else for that. Even on that plane ride Mike and Van took from Big Sur to L.A. back around 1980 or whatever it was.

But why should he have to apologize for something he had basically no say in and a venture where he was little more than an employee?

If I mentioned to the president of my company that I didn't like the robo-flushing mechanisms they installed on the toilets, and then months later he dissolves the company: does this mean I'd have to apologize for the next 40 years and counting?

Good analogy, but I think Mike DID have a say, didn't he?

[drbeachboy]

I think the poster [original] was trying to rouse the anti-Mike sentiment.

Yeah!  I think you're right!  Let's get 'im!!!

Peace and love, Mikie. I'm gonna make myself feel like I am meditating when come in here.

[Smile4ever]

I'm not one for revisionist history, but even I'm 100% behind the fact that BRIAN SCRAPPED SMILE. It was solely his decision. 

Ask yourself this. If Mike was really that dead set against the direction Brian was heading, why on earth did he then help record Smiley Smile, which is way more trippy and weird than Smile ever was.

That has always been my argument, as well. Plus, as we have been told by Linett and Boyd. It would have taken the digital age to get Smile put together properly.

I've always said the same thing too. Agree

[Shady]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not one for revisionist history, but even I'm 100% behind the fact that BRIAN SCRAPPED SMILE. It was solely his decision. 

Ask yourself this. If Mike was really that dead set against the direction Brian was heading, why on earth did he then help record Smiley Smile, which is way more trippy and weird than Smile ever was.

That has always been my argument, as well. Plus, as we have been told by Linett and Boyd. It would have taken the digital age to get Smile put together properly.

I've always said the same thing too. Agree

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

that's something fans will really only be caught saying,,,,, It's a bit different in the boiler room

[drbeachboy]

I'm not one for revisionist history, but even I'm 100% behind the fact that BRIAN SCRAPPED SMILE. It was solely his decision.  

Ask yourself this. If Mike was really that dead set against the direction Brian was heading, why on earth did he then help record Smiley Smile, which is way more trippy and weird than Smile ever was.

That has always been my argument, as well. Plus, as we have been told by Linett and Boyd. It would have taken the digital age to get Smile put together properly.

I've always said the same thing too. Agree

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Well, let's see, what have I learned through 4 pages of posts? Nothing! Same ol', same ol'. Like every other thread in here, Brian vs Mike.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not one for revisionist history, but even I'm 100% behind the fact that BRIAN SCRAPPED SMILE. It was solely his decision.  

Ask yourself this. If Mike was really that dead set against the direction Brian was heading, why on earth did he then help record Smiley Smile, which is way more trippy and weird than Smile ever was.

That has always been my argument, as well. Plus, as we have been told by Linett and Boyd. It would have taken the digital age to get Smile put together properly.

I've always said the same thing too. Agree

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Well, let's see, what have I learned through 4 pages of posts? Nothing! Same ol', same ol'. Like every other thread in here, Brian vs Mike.

No, no. I meant that to be good natured. I'm just trying like you to establish a logical reason why Smiley Smile (not necessarily as music but as a project) might have suited Mike's needs more than Smile

[drbeachboy]

I'm not one for revisionist history, but even I'm 100% behind the fact that BRIAN SCRAPPED SMILE. It was solely his decision. 

Ask yourself this. If Mike was really that dead set against the direction Brian was heading, why on earth did he then help record Smiley Smile, which is way more trippy and weird than Smile ever was.

That has always been my argument, as well. Plus, as we have been told by Linett and Boyd. It would have taken the digital age to get Smile put together properly.

I've always said the same thing too. Agree

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Well, let's see, what have I learned through 4 pages of posts? Nothing! Same ol', same ol'. Like every other thread in here, Brian vs Mike.

No, no. I meant that to be good natured. I'm just trying like you to establish a logical reason why Smiley Smile (not necessarily as music but as a project) might have suited Mike's needs more than Smile

Mike got to write lyrics, but at what price? Even if Smile wasn't a total success, it would have sounded more like a Beach Boys album than Smiley did. If Brian could have completed Smile, it would have been released without any objections from Mike or the rest of the band. It was the planned release until Brian shelved it. So, we come full circle back to Brian.

[runnersdialzero]

Can we all cut the bullshit and acknowledge the real enemy, here? The one who really ensured the collapse of Smile?

Al Jardine. There, I said it.