Audio fidelity on the Reverberation -> Sunflower cuts

[Quzi]

So when Add Some Music was rejected in 1970 we know the band decided to draw on songs they were stockpiling for a Capitol release to appease Reprise. It may be my ears deceiving me, but the songs that were claimed, namely All I Wanna Do and Deirdre sound slightly more hissy and less dynamic than the other tracks on Sunflower, especially in the lower frequencies. Now my knowledge of the legalities behind the use and ownership of master-recordings/the processes involved in tape-transfer is about as thorough as a snail's in astrophysics, but is it possible that for whatever reason the band were required to do a transfer of these songs instead of using the source material, resulting in these qualities?

I'll grant this enquiry is a little petty, it's not like the band suddenly turn into Guided By Voices for these tracks, but some of those Reverberation songs are among my favourite Beach Boys tunes - if someone told me a less hissy version of All I Wanna Do could be sourced where the fuzzed out synth in the second chorus violently rattles my soul I'd probably Ocean's Eleven the vault so I could hear it once before dying in ecstasy.

[Niko]

Stephen Despers new study guide is on Sunflower...I'm really hoping there's some in depth study on All I Wanna Do. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

So when Add Some Music was rejected in 1970 we know the band decided to draw on songs they were stockpiling for a Capitol release to appease Reprise. It may be my ears deceiving me, but the songs that were claimed, namely All I Wanna Do and Deirdre sound slightly more hissy and less dynamic than the other tracks on Sunflower, especially in the lower frequencies.

Could be because some of the Sunflower tracks were originally cut on 8-track before being transferred to the new 16-track in mid-October 1969. According to the more than averagely excellent Bellagio 10452 site, those tracks were:

Forever
All I Wanna Do
Deirdre
Got To Know The Woman
Slip On Through

[DonnyL]

Yeh the 8-track songs have more bounces. Tracks like 'Forever' are sonically on par with 'Break Away' and 'Celebrate the News', both of which were completed on 8-track. The 3M M56 16-track was also arguably superior than the 8-track decks used. I own of the 8-track machines that recorded 'Got to Know the Woman' and 'Celebrate the News'. This is a great-sounding deck, but was built in 1966 and is Ampex's first solid-state design, so it was early in solid-state tech. The 3M M56 16-track was introduced in 1968, and was light years ahead of previous machines. Any of the 8-track sessions that were begun at outside studios in early '69 likely used an older formula tape (1962 tech.). At some point later in 1969, high output tape was introduced, and most studios switched.

[Joel Goldenberg]

Forever's pretty hissy in its released version, but that vocals-only track is so crystal clear!

[Awesoman]

I'd love to play with the multitrack masters for this album.  Give the songs a more modern sounding mix.  If only...!

[EgoHanger1966]

Also, note that Deirdre has some frequency weirdness going on - it is NOT rechanneled but it sounds as if there is more treble in one channel than in the other/more bass in the other channel. I recall asking Desper about this but can't quite recall the answer.

[sockittome]

Also, note that Deirdre has some frequency weirdness going on - it is NOT rechanneled but it sounds as if there is more treble in one channel than in the other/more bass in the other channel. I recall asking Desper about this but can't quite recall the answer.

I've noticed that.  It almost sounds like one channel is out of phase, particularly on the vocal.

[Quzi]

Could be because some of the Sunflower tracks were originally cut on 8-track before being transferred to the new 16-track in mid-October 1969. According to the more than averagely excellent Bellagio 10452 site, those tracks were...

I think you're underselling Bellagio 10452 there! I knew the tracks were recorded first but I always thought "what would a few months difference make?" Now I know the answer is a 16-track recorder Even still, I'd argue cuts the band recorded earlier such as I Went to Sleep have markedly better audio quality than something like Forever which leads me to believe there may be another factor in play.

I'd love to play with the multitrack masters for this album.  Give the songs a more modern sounding mix.  If only...!

I hear ya. Perhaps all that high-end cut through nicely on muddy 1960s speakers but the mix sounds a little brittle today and is likely the main contributor to the hissiness. I'd love to cut a bit of that top and give it some mid-range presence à la Friends.

[Micha]

Even still, I'd argue cuts the band recorded earlier such as I Went to Sleep have markedly better audio quality than something like Forever

I absolutely agree that "I Went to Sleep" sounds cleaner than "Forever"! However, I like that a bit muddier sound more than the clear one...

[Joel Goldenberg]

Also, note that Deirdre has some frequency weirdness going on - it is NOT rechanneled but it sounds as if there is more treble in one channel than in the other/more bass in the other channel. I recall asking Desper about this but can't quite recall the answer.

In a thread I started about Brian Wilson and Duophonic, I think Desper said he employed some rechanneling-type methods to expand the sound of some elements of some recordings.

[zachrwolfe]

‍

[LeeDempsey]

Also, note that Deirdre has some frequency weirdness going on - it is NOT rechanneled but it sounds as if there is more treble in one channel than in the other/more bass in the other channel. I recall asking Desper about this but can't quite recall the answer.

In a thread I started about Brian Wilson and Duophonic, I think Desper said he employed some rechanneling-type methods to expand the sound of some elements of some recordings.

Elsewhere, Stephen has written that during this time he frequently employed an Orban comb filter.  I believe the Orban takes a mono source signal and assigns different frequencies to the L and R channels to create a 2-channel, "synthesized stereo" effect.  It can also be used on a stereo signal to broaden the image from being a point source to a wider sound.

I once complimented a local FM deejay on how great his remotes sounded when he was broadcasting from the parking lot of a car dealership.  He laughed, and said that he was only sending back a summed mono source, which was then being run through an Orban back at the station to create a pseudostereo broadcast signal.  Fooled me...

Lee

[Cabinessenceking]

Stephen Despers new study guide is on Sunflower...I'm really hoping there's some in depth study on All I Wanna Do. 

I'm really looking forward to that. His dissection of CCW was astounding. Such high quality and so enjoyable!

It's been awhile since last, hope it will be out during the summer.

[Niko]

The video is finished, but needs to be posted. Fingers crossed it's soon

[DonnyL]

Could be because some of the Sunflower tracks were originally cut on 8-track before being transferred to the new 16-track in mid-October 1969. According to the more than averagely excellent Bellagio 10452 site, those tracks were...

I think you're underselling Bellagio 10452 there! I knew the tracks were recorded first but I always thought "what would a few months difference make?" Now I know the answer is a 16-track recorder Even still, I'd argue cuts the band recorded earlier such as I Went to Sleep have markedly better audio quality than something like Forever which leads me to believe there may be another factor in play.

Maybe IWTS was done on an 8-track and never bounced or transferred until the stereo mix? So Forever would be a generation below IWTS?

"I Went to Sleep" I believe was cut on the 3M M23 8-track. Desper can clarify, but I believe he was able to 'bounce' specific elements within the track. Like, say you could record a basic track, then some backing vocals, then bounce just the backing vocals to other open tracks, leaving the basic untouched.

This is in contrast to the bouncing techniques needed on a deck like mine, the Ampex AG-300. On this deck, sync response is really lousy ... so you need to bounce in 'play' mode, which means you need to bounce everything together on one or two tracks, then use open tracks (otherwise, the parts will be out of sync with one another).

So, just pure speculation here, but if they needed more than 8-tracks on on a song cut at an outside studio, like Sunset Sound for instance, they could potentially run into a problem like this.

Just one example of how things can sound different based on certain tape decks being used.

For tracks like "Forever" and "Got to Know the Woman", they probably did not plan ahead on transferring the stuff to 16-track ... it was most likely just part of the process. So there was more likely bounces being done on the 8-track, then the transfer to 16-track. These dubs are going to affect the fidelity and 'hiss' level.

[Custom Machine]

For tracks like "Forever" and "Got to Know the Woman", they probably did not plan ahead on transferring the stuff to 16-track ... it was most likely just part of the process. So there was more likely bounces being done on the 8-track, then the transfer to 16-track. These dubs are going to affect the fidelity and 'hiss' level.

In instances such as Forever and Got to Know the Woman, where the recording started out on 8 track and then was transferred to 16 track, would both the 8 track and 16 track tapes still be in the vaults, or would just the 16 track tape have been kept?  How wide were the 8 track and 16 track tapes of that era?  Did they typically run at 15 ips?

[DonnyL]

For tracks like "Forever" and "Got to Know the Woman", they probably did not plan ahead on transferring the stuff to 16-track ... it was most likely just part of the process. So there was more likely bounces being done on the 8-track, then the transfer to 16-track. These dubs are going to affect the fidelity and 'hiss' level.

In instances such as Forever and Got to Know the Woman, where the recording started out on 8 track and then was transferred to 16 track, would both the 8 track and 16 track tapes still be in the vaults, or would just the 16 track tape have been kept?  How wide were the 8 track and 16 track tapes of that era?  Did they typically run at 15 ips?

Presumably, both the 8-track and 16-track masters would be in the vaults.

8-track tapes were 1-inch, and 16-track tapes were 2 inch.

The 8-track era tapes would most likely all be 15 ips. The 16-track tapes I think were usually 30 ips.

15 ips gives truer bass response, but 30 ips gives better highs and overall fidelity. I think Desper said they recorded to 30 and mixed to 15, though I think later '70s mixes were done at 30 or 15, with or without dolby, depending on the song.

[DonnyL]

Also, worth noting is that some of these tracks may have been mixed from 8-track. Not sure if all of them ended up on 16. According to AGD's site, there's apparently a mono mix of 'Got to Know the Woman', for instance ... which might suggest an earlier mix.

[petsite]

So nice to see these types of issues discussed. I have gotten really interested in this aspect of the boys material. I read that Andrew Sandoval was told by Mark L. to no-noise Forever and several tracks on Surf's Up for the 2000 re-releases. Mark, if you reading this, can you tell me if that is true?

Also, was WAS up with the initial version of Surf's Up used on the Caribou re-issues and the GV boxset. I heard bleedover from some other track. In 2000, another tape was suppose to have been used, but over the weekend, I ripped this version to my PC and played the track up loud, and tho not as in your face as before, I swear I still here what sounds like talking on the left channel.

Also, that Bellagio 10452 site is SO over rated. There are only dates and times on the sessions, no second by second info on the sessions. What a rip-off!!!

Of course I am kidding Mr. Doe. Such a tremendous site I can't stand it. Always pull it up just to read. If I ever have to wait anywhere, I just pull that up. Love it!!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Also, that Bellagio 10452 site is SO over rated. There are only dates and times on the sessions...

There are times ?  I know my memory is fading, but hellfire, I don't recall ever adding the session timings.