I think I can understand why Brian might not wanna write much with Mike...

[Nicko1234]

I notice you ignored every point I raised that responded to your attempts to re-imagine what Mike actually said.

I`m not reimagining anything.

I know Mike has claimed credit for the positivity of the band and I don`t entirely agree with him there.

I know what he said in the Endless Harmony doc.

I also know that he has thanked Brian for giving them great lives.

Which indicates that he does have a massive ego and does overrate his importance but it also indicates that he does NOT see the positivity element alone as being responsible for their success and he acknowledges Brian was responsible for this.

Sorry to try to look at things from more than one source.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I notice you ignored every point I raised that responded to your attempts to re-imagine what Mike actually said.

I`m not reimagining anything.

I know Mike has claimed credit for the positivity of the band and I don`t entirely agree with him there.

I know what he said in the Endless Harmony doc.

I also know that he has thanked Brian for giving them great lives.

Which indicates that he does have a massive ego and does overrate his importance but it also indicates that he does NOT see the positivity element alone as being responsible for their success and he acknowledges Brian was responsible for this.

Sorry to try to look at things from more than one source.

So because he sometimes takes credit for the success of the band and sometimes doesn't, we have to base these two quotations off of other things he has said and other ways he has acted. Personally, I think the Endless Harmony doc quotation is far more reflective than just about anything else he's said. It was that rare moment where I go, "Aha! Well, that explains a lot."

[Nicko1234]

So because he sometimes takes credit for the success of the band and sometimes doesn't, we have to base these two quotations off of other things he has said and other ways he has acted. Personally, I think the Endless Harmony doc quotation is far more reflective than just about anything else he's said. It was that rare moment where I go, "Aha! Well, that explains a lot."

The other things he has said would include the recent John Lennon/Brian Wilson one I guess.

Which as El Mole has said indicates that while one member (Brian in this case) may be considered the main man others can still have made a contribution.

Mike has commented on numerous occasions about Brian`s genius and his role in things as well of course.

[runnersdialzero]

hurr durr

[Heysaboda]

I'm trying to remember but in the case where Mike Love sued Brian Wilson over those infamous song credits, didn't he first try to approach Wilson privately and try to work out a settlement without having to take him to court?  I believe Mike Love only went to court when he and Wilson couldn't work out an equatable settlement between the two of them as to what Mike was actually owed for his songwriting contributions.

BTW, can someone point me to the list of the songs where Mike was awarded co-writer's credit, as a result of the 1994 lawsuit.  I tried Google and got the usual interviews.  Did AGD post such a list?  Thanks!

AGD did post a list in another thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15868.msg381802.html#msg381802

Thank you ORR (and AGD).  I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The other things he has said would include the recent John Lennon/Brian Wilson one I guess.

Which as El Mole has said indicates that while one member (Brian in this case) may be considered the main man others can still have made a contribution.

I think you're somewhat misinterpreting El Mole now, to be honest. El Mole said what is quite true that the way Mike presented his statement, he could mean that he "considers himself to be the equal of either Brian or Paul, and he's nowhere near either of them."

In fact, if one considers what he does say, I don't think that Mike is suggesting that it is fair for "one member" to "be considered the main man" at all. There's nothing in his example that suggests to me that it is fair for anyone to consider John Lennon to be the "main man" in The Beatles. And it wouldn't be.

[Mike's Beard]

The Beach Boys; the only band I'm aware of where unless your initials are BW;
a) no other band member may form an opinion on the band's musical or lyrical direction.
b) no other band member is allowed to take credit for their own artistic contributions.
c) no other band member may choose not to continue working in the band if they don't wish to.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The Beach Boys; the only band I'm aware of where unless your initials are BW;
a) no other band member may form an opinion on the band's musical or lyrical direction.
b) no other band member is allowed to take credit for their own artistic contributions.
c) no other band member may choose not to continue working in the band if they don't wish to.

And it's remarkable how simply taking Mike at his word results in the most hysterical and over-exaggerated reinterpretations of someone's position. I can play this game too:

I think it's remarkable how you are arguing that:

a) whatever Mike says goes
b) Mike has always known what is best for the band
c) no one can assess the Beach Boys popularity better than Mike

[Chocolate Shake Man]

No wonder so many of you think there's such a Campaign of Hate towards Mike. Nowhere do you hear more terrible anti-Mike sentiments than the ones made up by his biggest supporters.

[Dancing Bear]

It's not a Campaign of Hate, it's just like... Just like if I had to read every Gosh Darn day how Brian is passive-agressive or that Denis never grew up. I've known that for decades, what's the use for reinstating every day? To feel good about myself?

[Cam Mott]

All I'm saying is people are adding meaning to the quote that isn't there

You are the leading practitioner of doing that in this thread when you suggest that he's simply talking about fans having particular favourite members of the band. Talk about a counter-reading!

Surprise, I disagree.

I didn't say he is simply talking about favorite members, in fact I discussed two points. There are fallacies. People have favorites in bands.

[TMinthePM]

11 more pages of mental masturbation. Pathetic.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

All I'm saying is people are adding meaning to the quote that isn't there

You are the leading practitioner of doing that in this thread when you suggest that he's simply talking about fans having particular favourite members of the band. Talk about a counter-reading!

Surprise, I disagree.

I didn't say he is simply talking about favorite members, in fact I discussed two points. There are fallacies. People have favorites in bands.

I'm unclear on your point, then. Do you think when someone says, "The Beatles were John Lennon" that that's just code for saying, "The Beatles had a lot of great players. I can see how some would like Paul the best. I can see how some would like George the best. Personally, my favourite is John"?

[Mike's Beard]

I think it's remarkable how you are arguing that:

a) whatever Mike says goes
b) Mike has always known what is best for the band
c) no one can assess the Beach Boys popularity better than Mike

Oddly enough I don't recall saying any of the above - oh wait, that's right, I didn't.

11 more pages of mental masturbation. Pathetic.

Go start another shitty astrology thread if this one's not to your liking.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think it's remarkable how you are arguing that:

a) whatever Mike says goes
b) Mike has always known what is best for the band
c) no one can assess the Beach Boys popularity better than Mike

Oddly enough I don't recall saying any of the above - oh wait, that's right, I didn't.

You couldn't have possibly missed the point of that, that drastically, could you have? I outright told you what I was doing in the part you chose not to quote.

[ontor pertawst]

This thread isn't commercial enough. You guys should consider rhyming slightly more often.

[Mike's Beard]

I think it's remarkable how you are arguing that:

a) whatever Mike says goes
b) Mike has always known what is best for the band
c) no one can assess the Beach Boys popularity better than Mike

Oddly enough I don't recall saying any of the above - oh wait, that's right, I didn't.

You couldn't have possibly missed the point of that, that drastically, could you have? I outright told you what I was doing in the part you chose not to quote.

My earlier post was a sweeping statement on how many people seem to view Mike Love and how they fall over themselves to tear him a new one simply for having an opinion on the band he's been in for over 50 years.

[Heysaboda]

Not being a BB's fan until the late 90's, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Mike Love was denied authorship of some major, major songs such as 409, Wendy, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, etc.  and had to sue to have his credit established  That's disgraceful, bush league and it's one of the reasons people think of the BB's as second rate to the Beatles.  I mean, imagine if Lennon had excluded Paul from having authorship of Can't Buy Me Love or Hey Jude??  This is BS.

[Mike's Beard]

Not being a BB's fan until the late 90's, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Mike Love was denied authorship of some major, major songs such as 409, Wendy, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, etc.  and had to sue to have his credit established  That's disgraceful, bush league and it's one of the reasons people think of the BB's as second rate to the Beatles.  I mean, imagine if Lennon had excluded Paul from having authorship of Can't Buy Me Love or Hey Jude??  This is BS.

The irony is that there are plenty of Lennon/McCartney credited songs where Lennon had bugger all to do with the writing and vice versa.

[Jim V.]

Not being a BB's fan until the late 90's, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Mike Love was denied authorship of some major, major songs such as 409, Wendy, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, etc.  and had to sue to have his credit established  That's disgraceful, bush league and it's one of the reasons people think of the BB's as second rate to the Beatles.  I mean, imagine if Lennon had excluded Paul from having authorship of Can't Buy Me Love or Hey Jude??  This is BS.

I think that absolutely deserved the credit that he was owed. He wrote the lyrics to those songs!

However, Lennon excluding Paul for having authorship on "Hey Jude" would be an entirely different ball of wax. Difference being, while Mike wrote the lyrics to, say, "I Get Around", Paul wrote both the music and the lyrics to "Hey Jude". Lennon had zip to do with it, except supposedly for telling Paul to keep the line about "the movement you need is on your shoulder" or whatever.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think it's remarkable how you are arguing that:

a) whatever Mike says goes
b) Mike has always known what is best for the band
c) no one can assess the Beach Boys popularity better than Mike

Oddly enough I don't recall saying any of the above - oh wait, that's right, I didn't.

You couldn't have possibly missed the point of that, that drastically, could you have? I outright told you what I was doing in the part you chose not to quote.

My earlier post was a sweeping statement on how many people seem to view Mike Love and how they fall over themselves to tear him a new one simply for having an opinion on the band he's been in for over 50 years.

It was a sweeping statement, that in my view, does not reflect any of the arguments that are typically given. In other words, the positions I attributed to you were about as accurate as the points you brought up.

I was critical of Mike because he outright claimed that he was responsible for the success of the band. That's a criticism that I would apply to everybody and anybody, though you won't find many people who would make such a comment. This is not criticizing someone for "having an opinion" - it's criticizing the opinion itself, which in my view, is worthy of criticism. In fact, I'm surprised these sorts of comments merit anything other than sheer laughter. What irks me is when people rush in to defend them.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Not being a BB's fan until the late 90's, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Mike Love was denied authorship of some major, major songs such as 409, Wendy, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, etc.  and had to sue to have his credit established  That's disgraceful, bush league and it's one of the reasons people think of the BB's as second rate to the Beatles.  I mean, imagine if Lennon had excluded Paul from having authorship of Can't Buy Me Love or Hey Jude??  This is BS.

The irony is that there are plenty of Lennon/McCartney credited songs where Lennon had bugger all to do with the writing and vice versa.

Yep - the fact is that songwriting credits are not as simple as the people who wrote it get the credit. Or, at least, that certainly wasn't the case in the 60s. Hell, didn't Mal Evans write most of Fixing a Hole?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Not being a BB's fan until the late 90's, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Mike Love was denied authorship of some major, major songs such as 409, Wendy, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, etc.  and had to sue to have his credit established  That's disgraceful, bush league and it's one of the reasons people think of the BB's as second rate to the Beatles.  I mean, imagine if Lennon had excluded Paul from having authorship of Can't Buy Me Love or Hey Jude??  This is BS.

It happened in the Stones quite a  bit. Brian Jones and Bill W contributed to songs uncredited. The Beatles had the opposite issue, sometimes Paul would write 100% of a song and John got 50% credit. And vice versa.

The elephant in the room is why it took Mike 30 years, on average, to speak up about his credits. The reason is Brian had sued over royalties/ownership and got a big check. So Mike smells $ and sues Brian. Thing Brian should have done is coordinated his legal actions with his songwriting partners.

[drbeachboy]

Not being a BB's fan until the late 90's, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Mike Love was denied authorship of some major, major songs such as 409, Wendy, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, etc.  and had to sue to have his credit established  That's disgraceful, bush league and it's one of the reasons people think of the BB's as second rate to the Beatles.  I mean, imagine if Lennon had excluded Paul from having authorship of Can't Buy Me Love or Hey Jude??  This is BS.

It happened in the Stones quite a  bit. Brian Jones and Bill W contributed to songs uncredited. The Beatles had the opposite issue, sometimes Paul would write 100% of a song and John got 50% credit. And vice versa.

The elephant in the room is why it took Mike 30 years, on average, to speak up about his credits. The reason is Brian had sued over royalties/ownership and got a big check. So Mike smells $ and sues Brian. Thing Brian should have done is coordinated his legal actions with his songwriting partners.

and, also settle with Mike for the $750k that he was willing take before Brian's lawyers made decision to let it go to court.

[Cam Mott]

All I'm saying is people are adding meaning to the quote that isn't there

You are the leading practitioner of doing that in this thread when you suggest that he's simply talking about fans having particular favourite members of the band. Talk about a counter-reading!

Surprise, I disagree.

I didn't say he is simply talking about favorite members, in fact I discussed two points. There are fallacies. People have favorites in bands.

I'm unclear on your point, then. Do you think when someone says, "The Beatles were John Lennon" that that's just code for saying, "The Beatles had a lot of great players. I can see how some would like Paul the best. I can see how some would like George the best. Personally, my favourite is John"?

I mean I said there were two points and not "simply talking about fans having particular favourite members of the band".

I think Mike said some people say the Beatles were John, he wonders if Paul is then "chopped liver", and people have favorites in bands.