I think I can understand why Brian might not wanna write much with Mike...

[Cam Mott]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

First you don't need to be a Mike fan to see what is wrong with most of what is said about Mike. Getting closer to the truth is the balance.

I disagree. In fact, I think you have made some of the more bizarre comments I have seen on this board, particularly in that thread about who had control of the band. It wasn't surprising when people started to wonder whether or not you were actually putting people on. I've had several exchanges with people on this board when I attribute views to Love and the first response is typically, "You're just a Mike-hater because Mike never said that." When I provide the quotation to show that Mike, in fact, did say that, the response is typically, "You're just a Mike-hater because Mike said that 10 years ago and you can't hold him to one comment from 10 years ago." When I then show several quotations that show that the comment from 10 years ago is fairly consistent with many of his comments over a large range of years, the response is, "OK, but Dennis. But Keith Moon. But John Lennon." There is absolutely something wrong here if that is the nature of these discussions. I should actually make a sidenote and say these are the most grounded exchanges. The ones that truly leave me awestruck are when I provide the quotation from Mike and the response is to say, "Well, he's not actually saying that. What he's really saying is..." It's a real exercise in delusion that I don't witness with any other public figure outside of the political realm.

Then we agree that we disagree about all of that.

[Cabinessenceking]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

First you don't need to be a Mike fan to see what is wrong with most of what is said about Mike. Getting closer to the truth is the balance.

I disagree. In fact, I think you have made some of the more bizarre comments I have seen on this board, particularly in that thread about who had control of the band. It wasn't surprising when people started to wonder whether or not you were actually putting people on. I've had several exchanges with people on this board when I attribute views to Love and the first response is typically, "You're just a Mike-hater because Mike never said that." When I provide the quotation to show that Mike, in fact, did say that, the response is typically, "You're just a Mike-hater because Mike said that 10 years ago and you can't hold him to one comment from 10 years ago." When I then show several quotations that show that the comment from 10 years ago is fairly consistent with many of his comments over a large range of years, the response is, "OK, but Dennis. But Keith Moon. But John Lennon." There is absolutely something wrong here if that is the nature of these discussions. I should actually make a sidenote and say these are the most grounded exchanges. The ones that truly leave me awestruck are when I provide the quotation from Mike and the response is to say, "Well, he's not actually saying that. What he's really saying is..." It's a real exercise in delusion that I don't witness with any other public figure outside of the political realm.

Then we agree that we disagree about all of that.

We can all happily agree that Mike is the biggest asshole in the band and some of us love/hate him more than others 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

No! I think the problem is: people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not. They REALLY REALLY REALLY want everyone to be fuming and steaming with rage about it.

[leggo of my ego]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

No! I think the problem is: people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not. They REALLY REALLY REALLY want everyone to be fuming and steaming with rage about it.

Or maybe the "problem" is Michael rarely gives the fan base a chance to calm down - He's the asshole that keeps on giving. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

No! I think the problem is: people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not. They REALLY REALLY REALLY want everyone to be fuming and steaming with rage about it.

It's not like I can exactly argue wiith that point ;p

Or maybe the "problem" is Michael rarely gives the fan base a chance to calm down - He's the asshole that keeps on giving. 

[oldsurferdude]

There's a weird mindset amongst the Mike Love fans here that suggests that bringing balance will actually get us closer to the truth when in fact, that's not true.

No! I think the problem is: people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not. They REALLY REALLY REALLY want everyone to be fuming and steaming with rage about it.

Or maybe the "problem" is Michael rarely gives the fan base a chance to calm down - He's the asshole that keeps on giving. 

[Nicko1234]

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

Several reasons...

They obviously do have different personalities and Mike does have a big ego.

They contributed very different amounts and Carl and Al couldn`t exactly claim that they had contributed a lot to the group`s hits. (Al actually seems to have carried a lot more bitterness around though now that you mention it and has complained about numerous things)

And also Mike felt wronged because he WAS wronged. He should have been credited on some of the biggest hits ever written and wasn`t. Which is not to say he hasn`t made mistakes himself.

This thread seems to have gone off topic though and just become the typical...

To make one more off topic point...

The amazing thing to me about the songwriting lawsuit is that many people don`t seem to care about the role of Brian`s management and lawyers in this. They forced Brian to go to court which cost him a hell of a lot of money and must have been a major hassle, they fought Mike even on songs like California Girls where Brian had admitted that Mike had co-written it which is morally bankrupt and presumably they were hoping that Brian would commit perjury on the stand in order that Mike not be given that credit. Nobody seems to bothered about that though...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

Several reasons...

They obviously do have different personalities and Mike does have a big ego.

They contributed very different amounts and Carl and Al couldn`t exactly claim that they had contributed a lot to the group`s hits. (Al actually seems to have carried a lot more bitterness around though now that you mention it and has complained about numerous things)

And also Mike felt wronged because he WAS wronged. He should have been credited on some of the biggest hits ever written and wasn`t. Which is not to say he hasn`t made mistakes himself.

This thread seems to have gone off topic though and just become the typical...

To make one more off topic point...

The amazing thing to me about the songwriting lawsuit is that many people don`t seem to care about the role of Brian`s management and lawyers in this. They forced Brian to go to court which cost him a hell of a lot of money and must have been a major hassle, they fought Mike even on songs like California Girls where Brian had admitted that Mike had co-written it which is morally bankrupt and presumably they were hoping that Brian would commit perjury on the stand in order that Mike not be given that credit. Nobody seems to bothered about that though...

That's because they couldn't care less about such details even if they admit themselves that it's true.
To them, the concrete narrative is that Mike is the biggest asshole of all time and they will hang onto that opinion no matter what. It's a waste of time to even entertaine a conversation.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

Several reasons...

They obviously do have different personalities and Mike does have a big ego.

They contributed very different amounts and Carl and Al couldn`t exactly claim that they had contributed a lot to the group`s hits. (Al actually seems to have carried a lot more bitterness around though now that you mention it and has complained about numerous things)

And also Mike felt wronged because he WAS wronged. He should have been credited on some of the biggest hits ever written and wasn`t. Which is not to say he hasn`t made mistakes himself.

This thread seems to have gone off topic though and just become the typical...

To make one more off topic point...

The amazing thing to me about the songwriting lawsuit is that many people don`t seem to care about the role of Brian`s management and lawyers in this. They forced Brian to go to court which cost him a hell of a lot of money and must have been a major hassle, they fought Mike even on songs like California Girls where Brian had admitted that Mike had co-written it which is morally bankrupt and presumably they were hoping that Brian would commit perjury on the stand in order that Mike not be given that credit. Nobody seems to bothered about that though...

That's because they couldn't care less about such details even if they admit themselves that it's true.
To them, the concrete narrative is that Mike is the biggest asshole of all time and they will hang onto that opinion no matter what. It's a waste of time to even entertaine a conversation.

Pinder, I respect you a great deal and you're one of my favourite posters on here, but here I think you're a bit guilty of the kind of thing I parodied a few weeks ago on this board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15868.msg381604.html#msg381604

You noted above that the problem is "people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not." The truth is, though, that I have found that there are posters who take any criticism of Mike so seriously that the person issuing the criticism must be a Mike Love hater. Here, you have a poster in this very thread who has said to you that he doesn't hate Mike Love, and you don't believe him. In that respect, as an observation, it almost always seems to me that these types of threads escalate because a Mike supporter positions someone else into a false position. It has happened to me on regular occasions on this board. It doesn't matter if I go on endlessly about how I really like Mike as a singer and as a lyricist (which I do). If I'm not on board with everything Mike has done then that makes me a hater and a Brianista, or whatever.

[Nicko1234]

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

Several reasons...

They obviously do have different personalities and Mike does have a big ego.

They contributed very different amounts and Carl and Al couldn`t exactly claim that they had contributed a lot to the group`s hits. (Al actually seems to have carried a lot more bitterness around though now that you mention it and has complained about numerous things)

And also Mike felt wronged because he WAS wronged. He should have been credited on some of the biggest hits ever written and wasn`t. Which is not to say he hasn`t made mistakes himself.

This thread seems to have gone off topic though and just become the typical...

To make one more off topic point...

The amazing thing to me about the songwriting lawsuit is that many people don`t seem to care about the role of Brian`s management and lawyers in this. They forced Brian to go to court which cost him a hell of a lot of money and must have been a major hassle, they fought Mike even on songs like California Girls where Brian had admitted that Mike had co-written it which is morally bankrupt and presumably they were hoping that Brian would commit perjury on the stand in order that Mike not be given that credit. Nobody seems to bothered about that though...

That's because they couldn't care less about such details even if they admit themselves that it's true.
To them, the concrete narrative is that Mike is the biggest asshole of all time and they will hang onto that opinion no matter what. It's a waste of time to even entertaine a conversation.

Pinder, I respect you a great deal and you're one of my favourite posters on here, but here I think you're a bit guilty of the kind of thing I parodied a few weeks ago on this board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15868.msg381604.html#msg381604

You noted above that the problem is "people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not." The truth is, though, that I have found that there are posters who take any criticism of Mike so seriously that the person issuing the criticism must be a Mike Love hater. Here, you have a poster in this very thread who has said to you that he doesn't hate Mike Love, and you don't believe him. In that respect, as an observation, it almost always seems to me that these types of threads escalate because a Mike supporter positions someone else into a false position. It has happened to me on regular occasions on this board. It doesn't matter if I go on endlessly about how I really like Mike as a singer and as a lyricist (which I do). If I'm not on board with everything Mike has done then that makes me a hater and a Brianista, or whatever.

The fact that on a Beach Boys website people use phrases like `Mike supporter`is both amusing and tragic.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

Several reasons...

They obviously do have different personalities and Mike does have a big ego.

They contributed very different amounts and Carl and Al couldn`t exactly claim that they had contributed a lot to the group`s hits. (Al actually seems to have carried a lot more bitterness around though now that you mention it and has complained about numerous things)

And also Mike felt wronged because he WAS wronged. He should have been credited on some of the biggest hits ever written and wasn`t. Which is not to say he hasn`t made mistakes himself.

This thread seems to have gone off topic though and just become the typical...

To make one more off topic point...

The amazing thing to me about the songwriting lawsuit is that many people don`t seem to care about the role of Brian`s management and lawyers in this. They forced Brian to go to court which cost him a hell of a lot of money and must have been a major hassle, they fought Mike even on songs like California Girls where Brian had admitted that Mike had co-written it which is morally bankrupt and presumably they were hoping that Brian would commit perjury on the stand in order that Mike not be given that credit. Nobody seems to bothered about that though...

That's because they couldn't care less about such details even if they admit themselves that it's true.
To them, the concrete narrative is that Mike is the biggest asshole of all time and they will hang onto that opinion no matter what. It's a waste of time to even entertaine a conversation.

Pinder, I respect you a great deal and you're one of my favourite posters on here, but here I think you're a bit guilty of the kind of thing I parodied a few weeks ago on this board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15868.msg381604.html#msg381604

You noted above that the problem is "people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not." The truth is, though, that I have found that there are posters who take any criticism of Mike so seriously that the person issuing the criticism must be a Mike Love hater. Here, you have a poster in this very thread who has said to you that he doesn't hate Mike Love, and you don't believe him. In that respect, as an observation, it almost always seems to me that these types of threads escalate because a Mike supporter positions someone else into a false position. It has happened to me on regular occasions on this board. It doesn't matter if I go on endlessly about how I really like Mike as a singer and as a lyricist (which I do). If I'm not on board with everything Mike has done then that makes me a hater and a Brianista, or whatever.

The fact that on a Beach Boys website people use phrases like `Mike supporter`is both amusing and tragic.

You're right - there is no good term available to describe what I'm talking about. That there is a term like Brianista but no equivalent for Mike is evident that the namecalling is overwhelmingly lobbed by the people who do, in fact, by and large take Mike's side in a lot of these discussions.

[Dancing Bear]

We all can take a public persona and make judgements.

I consider Brian Douglas Wilson a VERY flawed human being, a terrible brother, bandmate, cousin, father, husband, friend, a total asshole but in a passive agressive way. Borderline sociopathic.

But hell, I love his music and and don't give a sh*t if he's an asshole. I never had to work with him or live with him. I just listen to his records.

[Nicko1234]

You're right - there is no good term available to describe what I'm talking about. That there is a term like Brianista but no equivalent for Mike is evident that the namecalling is overwhelmingly lobbed by the people who do, in fact, by and large take Mike's side in a lot of these discussions.

Really???

You surely are not serious. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Fair enough. But why didn't Carl, or why hasn't Al ever tried to push the fact that they in fact helped a heck of a lot too? Seems that they are/were comfortable with their place in history, whereas Mike seems to feel perpetually wronged.

Several reasons...

They obviously do have different personalities and Mike does have a big ego.

They contributed very different amounts and Carl and Al couldn`t exactly claim that they had contributed a lot to the group`s hits. (Al actually seems to have carried a lot more bitterness around though now that you mention it and has complained about numerous things)

And also Mike felt wronged because he WAS wronged. He should have been credited on some of the biggest hits ever written and wasn`t. Which is not to say he hasn`t made mistakes himself.

This thread seems to have gone off topic though and just become the typical...

To make one more off topic point...

The amazing thing to me about the songwriting lawsuit is that many people don`t seem to care about the role of Brian`s management and lawyers in this. They forced Brian to go to court which cost him a hell of a lot of money and must have been a major hassle, they fought Mike even on songs like California Girls where Brian had admitted that Mike had co-written it which is morally bankrupt and presumably they were hoping that Brian would commit perjury on the stand in order that Mike not be given that credit. Nobody seems to bothered about that though...

That's because they couldn't care less about such details even if they admit themselves that it's true.
To them, the concrete narrative is that Mike is the biggest asshole of all time and they will hang onto that opinion no matter what. It's a waste of time to even entertaine a conversation.

Pinder, I respect you a great deal and you're one of my favourite posters on here, but here I think you're a bit guilty of the kind of thing I parodied a few weeks ago on this board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,15868.msg381604.html#msg381604

You noted above that the problem is "people who diss Mike and pick apart/ minimize his comtributions seem to really believe their opinion is THE opinion and they seem to have serious problems with those who disagree and those who really don't care if Mike's an asshole or not." The truth is, though, that I have found that there are posters who take any criticism of Mike so seriously that the person issuing the criticism must be a Mike Love hater. Here, you have a poster in this very thread who has said to you that he doesn't hate Mike Love, and you don't believe him. In that respect, as an observation, it almost always seems to me that these types of threads escalate because a Mike supporter positions someone else into a false position. It has happened to me on regular occasions on this board. It doesn't matter if I go on endlessly about how I really like Mike as a singer and as a lyricist (which I do). If I'm not on board with everything Mike has done then that makes me a hater and a Brianista, or whatever.

Thank you RnR!

I think, being guilty as charged, I'm just starting to see the futility of the topic in general. I mean, I don't think there's any debate that Mike's either a great guy or a total bastard, but rather: OK, so what? Or "Yeah, but he's REALLY an asshole"! Not very fertile ground for nuanced discussion. I just find it strange that to appeal to a person's base humanity does no good in such convos. If someone really really wants to view a guy as a bastard, thry're just going to do so, and I can respect that. I think it's really the OSD's of the world that prevent the topic from getting any rest. (A statement of which I'm sure he would consider a compliment)

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Point taken, Erik.

I'm still surprised anyone is ever bothered by OSD. If he were to attack someone I really admired in the way that he criticizes Mike, I would love it. I really do find him quite amusing.

[ontor pertawst]

He's the Tony Clifton of Smiley Smile! Hey Baaaahbbbbbb can you take a joke, BAAAAAAHBBBBBBBBBB....

OSD is also entirely a charity enterprise that supports Comic Relief, so you're a sh*t if you don't support his misspellings. it's for CHARITY.

Footnote: I'd like to remain the Alfred Jarry of the place if that's ok, as someone else said. (Failing that, Sammy Petrillo.)

[Cam Mott]

Wasn't the term Brianista invented by a wife to describe her husband?

[Dancing Bear]

Point taken, Erik.

I'm still surprised anyone is ever bothered by OSD. If he were to attack someone I really admired in the way that he criticizes Mike, I would love it. I really do find him quite amusing.

Let's say that it starts to get tiring when a thread about an unreleased Beach Boys track, which some liked and some didn't and it's all fine with that - turns into a thread about how Mike killed the band's reputation and progresiveness, how he's an asshole and would be pumping gas if not for his cousin etc.

I understand that there's a context in a thread like, say, "The Beach Boys after Endless Harmony - What Happened?". Yeah, there's a lot to discuss about Mike's actions about that. But it's just a track, why does it have to turn into a character judgement of the guy? I wish we payed more attention to the music and less to the gossip.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Point taken, Erik.

I'm still surprised anyone is ever bothered by OSD. If he were to attack someone I really admired in the way that he criticizes Mike, I would love it. I really do find him quite amusing.

Let's say that it starts to get tiring when a thread about an unreleased Beach Boys track, which some liked and some didn't and it's all fine with that - turns into a thread about how Mike killed the band's reputation and progresiveness, how he's an asshole and would be pumping gas if not for his cousin etc.

I understand that there's a context in a thread like, say, "The Beach Boys after Endless Harmony - What Happened?". Yeah, there's a lot to discuss about Mike's actions about that. But it's just a track, why does it have to turn into a character judgement of the guy? I wish we payed more attention to the music and less to the gossip.

+1

And the thing about OSD that's different is, he didn't just read David Leaf or something and decide Mike was an asshole: but he more or less arrived at this conclusion via 40+ years of being annoyed by the guy at Beach Boys shows. Toss in all Mike's extraneous behavior, and it makes sense. I don't agree with the guy (mostly) but can understand how he feels, most certainly.

But yeah, this is how it perpetuates: a conversation gets going and then someone interjects "Mike sucks" or something, a bunch of people rise to the Lovester's defense and then a bunch of people go "but wait! look at all the awful things he's done" and it just goes on and on and on......

I think if anytime someone discussed Dennis and some random poster, without fail, interjected "Yeah, but Dennis was a cheater" it would get tiresome too.

[oldsurferdude]

Point taken, Erik.

I'm still surprised anyone is ever bothered by OSD. If he were to attack someone I really admired in the way that he criticizes Mike, I would love it. I really do find him quite amusing.

Let's say that it starts to get tiring when a thread about an unreleased Beach Boys track, which some liked and some didn't and it's all fine with that - turns into a thread about how Mike killed the band's reputation and progresiveness, how he's an asshole and would be pumping gas if not for his cousin etc.

I understand that there's a context in a thread like, say, "The Beach Boys after Endless Harmony - What Happened?". Yeah, there's a lot to discuss about Mike's actions about that. But it's just a track, why does it have to turn into a character judgement of the guy? I wish we payed more attention to the music and less to the gossip.

+1

And the thing about OSD that's different is, he didn't just read David Leaf or something and decide Mike was an asshole: but he more or less arrived at this conclusion via 40+ years of being annoyed by the guy at Beach Boys shows. Toss in all Mike's extraneous behavior, and it makes sense. I don't agree with the guy (mostly) but can understand how he feels, most certainly.

But yeah, this is how it perpetuated: a conversation gets going and then someone interjects "Mike sucks" or something, a bunch of people rise to the Lovester's defense and then a bunch of people go "but wait! look at all the awful things he's done" and it just goes on and on and on......

+2, for understanding.

[Jim V.]

I think one thing we all need to keep in mind is that there really wasn't as vicious a level of animosity against him until last fall, when he decided that he wasn't going to continue on with Brian, Al and Dave for the near future. I'm sure as time goes by and C50 isn't quite as fresh in our minds, it'll go back to earlier levels, where people won't care quite as much. Although he does have a knack for egotistical and self serving comments, so I'm sure he will get our blood boiling every now and again.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think one thing we all need to keep in mind is that there really wasn't as vicious a level of animosity against him until last fall, when he decided that he wasn't going to continue on with Brian, Al and Dave for the near future. I'm sure as time goes by and C50 isn't quite as fresh in our minds, it'll go back to earlier levels, where people won't care quite as much. Although he does have a knack for egotistical and self serving comments, so I'm surely he will get our blood boiling every now and again.

are you kidding me?

[lance]

All y'all need to shut up. I have spoken.

[Doo Dah]

I think one thing we all need to keep in mind is that there really wasn't as vicious a level of animosity against him until last fall, when he decided that he wasn't going to continue on with Brian, Al and Dave for the near future. I'm sure as time goes by and C50 isn't quite as fresh in our minds, it'll go back to earlier levels, where people won't care quite as much. Although he does have a knack for egotistical and self serving comments, so I'm surely he will get our blood boiling every now and again.

are you kidding me?

It fluctuates. Like the stock market. He's the rock n roll Bernanke. He opens his mouth, and the market dives a hundred points!

[leggo of my ego]

Yes, the @sshole that keeps on giving. I coined that, by the way.