Jardine challenges Love to battle of the bands in explosive interview...

[filledeplage]

Picking up on the business versus emotion thread for a moment here. It's interesting that more people haven't talked about what I posted earlier -- and what is general knowledge -- that the C50 was a joint venture of Brian, Joe Thomas and Mike. That's opposed to BRI, which is Brian, Mike, Al and Carl's estate. Now, consider the power dynamics in one of those groups versus the other. As much as we may have wanted the reunion to continue, it was part of a business venture that was explicitly driven by Brian's people. Not Al or Carl's estate -- just Brian's. Now, consider who is still working with Brian, and who isn't. And who had gotten very skillful at avoiding video appearances or still photos.

Wirestone - excellent and objective description of the "entities." Bravo!

p.s. Notwithstanding any controversy with this article, Al Jardine absolutely rocked that white suit at C50 as he brought back that 1968-1969 era! He looked like a kid!

[Wirestone]

Al keepin' it clean!

The heart, the voices ....

Some apologists on here seem to live in that Bizzaro world Ron got caught in.
I
The boys were so close to righting alot of wrongs of the last 30 odd years towards the end of C50 . A high quality Live Albert Hall  DVD, no more lawsuits, continuing with select high quality shows.

The legacy was so close to being  what it should be, not the Sea World/Stamos interpretation (rightly or wrongly, that is the perception). Just how much money do some guys want?

If the Mike and Bruce show is so good, which it often is, it could continue as a going concern - just not THE BEACH BOYS. That gets reserved for the important shows, anniversaries,  plugging a new album, a full, full line up Pet Sounds tour, anyone?

Not that hard.

That hard - we're talking The Beach Boys here. Give them three decision choices and they've an unerring corporate instinct for choosing the worst one, the one that combines the least satisfaction with the highest possible damage.

And however you want to argue over the ending, AGD has a point. The guys are so freaking oblivious sometimes that it hurts ...

[JohnMill]

I just wanted to post the following to kind of wrap up my thoughts on this whole mess we've been living through since the C50 ended and try to put as positive a spin on things as possible:

First off even though the C50 didn't end the way most of us wanted it we as fans still got a lot of product that we might've otherwise not have gotten if there wasn't renewed interest in this group because of the C50.  The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50.  If anyone is aware of "The SMiLE Sessions" boxset from 2011 also being a byproduct of the C50, speak now and we can add that to the list.  We also got easily one of the best tours this band has ever done where the brand was brought to many people in many places who may have either only been casual Beach Boys fans or had incorrect predispositions about what this band was all about and could bring to the table.  For Carl and Dennis Wilson fans, their legacies were celebrated both in concert and will be on disc on the forthcoming boxset.

Second I think one of the things that a lot of us are so bummed about when it comes to the conclusion of the C50 (at least I am) is that we felt that we were sold a bill of goods that Brian, David, Alan, Bruce and Mike were all on good terms with one another and relationships between the band was more in line with the friendship they shared in the sixties rather than the acrimony of the past few decades.  Perhaps that was an assumption that we shouldn't have made.  That isn't to say they all hate one another but perhaps the old saying "you can't go home again" is appropriate when speaking of The Beach Boys.  In many cases throughout life, many of the our close friends of our adolescence and early adulthood find themselves to be mere acquaintances or sadly strangers later in life.  We grow, in some cases we regress and most of us do change over time.  Perhaps it was unfair of us as a fanbase to expect that the boys would be any different in terms of being able to turn back the clock so to speak to a much simpler time and era.

Is there any hope for reconciliation between the parties?  I think when Mike Love decided not to go forward with the C50 we as fans had to let go of the notion that first off that the C50 lineup was going to continue touring as the representative brand of "The Beach Boys".  Now many of us expected that to be so anyhow and were resigned to accept the consolation prize that the band would still be cohesive in terms of recording new album(s) and possibly staging small tours or special runs of shows to promote those records when they were released.  Obviously that was not to be either.  So I think it's probably a safe bet that we won't be seeing anymore elongated tours on the level of the C50 unless Brian Wilson (and his entourage) and Mike Love (and his entourage) ever get a chance to sit down together and work out a feasible method of touring as an inclusive unit again because obviously something (we're not sure what) didn't gel in terms of the group dynamic during the C50.

That being said 2016 is only a few short years away and that will be the 50th anniversary of "Pet Sounds".  You would think that some interested party at that point would approach all parties about the possibility of a small tour featuring the inclusive unit to celebrate one of the greatest records of all time.  So I think that could provide the impetus for one last spin of the turnstile so to speak in terms of the inclusive unit performing a few more shows together.  My personal feeling is that given enough money and a small tour with a definite start and end point that Mike Love (with Bruce) would return to the fold.  Now I know that isn't exactly how many of us pictured it playing out but for those of us hoping to be able to see The Beach Boys one more time as an inclusive unit, I think that is the most realistic scenario we can hope for.  

[Andrew G. Doe]

First off even though the C50 didn't end the way most of us wanted it we as fans still got a lot of product that we might've otherwise not have gotten if there wasn't renewed interest in this group because of the C50.  The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50.  If anyone is aware of "The SMiLE Sessions" boxset from 2011 also being a byproduct of the C50, speak now and we can add that to the list.

Beg to differ - it was all part of the greater gameplan, TSS included. That's my understanding, anyway. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

[Jim V.]

First off even though the C50 didn't end the way most of us wanted it we as fans still got a lot of product that we might've otherwise not have gotten if there wasn't renewed interest in this group because of the C50.  The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50.  If anyone is aware of "The SMiLE Sessions" boxset from 2011 also being a byproduct of the C50, speak now and we can add that to the list.

Beg to differ - it was all part of the greater gameplan, TSS included. That's my understanding, anyway. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

Why are you begging to differ? He said he wanted somebody to point out if TSS was part of C50 plan. He didn't state that it wasn't as fact.

You don't need to be rude at every turn.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The "beg to differ" was a response to the statement that "The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50". They weren't a byproduct of the success of C50, they were always part of the overall gameplan, as I understood it. I may be wrong, but seeing as the box set was announced alongside the tour, I may not.

[Surfs Down]

I have given up on trying to establish whether or not Mike Love is a villain.  None of the narratives seem to agree with each other.  On one end of the spectrum you have David Leaf and his "Brian is a victim" narrative, on the other Mike Love with his explanations for disagreements ("Wilson brothers abused drugs" and "I loved SMiLE and only took issue with one lyric").  I for one love the music the BBs made in late 60's and early 70s, which, by most accounts, was something of a group effort creatively.  It's hard for me to buy the David Leaf story of the rest of the band being abusive towards Brian and corporate-minded when this music was not exactly "commercial" (both in the way the music sounds and in terms of sales).  Weren't all the Beach Boys relatively "far out" in some way or another at this point in time? 

I think most of us here will agree that much of the Beach Boys music post 70s is cheesy and uninspired, but I often wonder just how popular the Beach Boys would be if it weren't for Mike Love revisiting all the oldies.  I grew up on the Surfin Hits, and I've wondered if I would ever have discovered the more obscure Beach Boys material without this foundation.

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

[Jim V.]

The "beg to differ" was a response to the statement that "The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50". They weren't a byproduct of the success of C50, they were always part of the overall gameplan, as I understood it. I may be wrong, but seeing as the box set was announced alongside the tour, I may not.

But they were byproducts of C50. If there was no 50th anniversary celebration, I found it doubtful any of that would've been released.

And by C50, I'm pretty sure JohnMill meant the entire operation, not just the tour.

But I know you won't admit you could possibly be wrong. You still haven't apologized to OregonRiverfRider for that matter.

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

Shitty thing is, AGD has always been very helpful on the site, and while extremelly grumpy he always helped clear things up. However these days, he seems more interested in toeing the line for Mike Love and Bruce Johnston and mocking Al Jardine's statements. Note that he even defended Bruce's asinine comments that an interviewer heard over the phone last year, but taking shots at Al is fine. Hmmm...

[JohnMill]

I have given up on trying to establish whether or not Mike Love is a villain.  None of the narratives seem to agree with each other.  On one end of the spectrum you have David Leaf and his "Brian is a victim" narrative, on the other Mike Love with his explanations for disagreements ("Wilson brothers abused drugs" and "I loved SMiLE and only took issue with one lyric").  I for one love the music the BBs made in late 60's and early 70s, which, by most accounts, was something of a group effort creatively.  It's hard for me to buy the David Leaf story of the rest of the band being abusive towards Brian and corporate-minded when this music was not exactly "commercial" (both in the way the music sounds and in terms of sales).  Weren't all the Beach Boys relatively "far out" in some way or another at this point in time?  

I think most of us here will agree that much of the Beach Boys music post 70s is cheesy and uninspired, but I often wonder just how popular the Beach Boys would be if it weren't for Mike Love revisiting all the oldies.  I grew up on the Surfin Hits, and I've wondered if I would ever have discovered the more obscure Beach Boys material without this foundation.

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

For the most part I've written off most of the "Brian & Five Dummies" rhetoric off as just that.  For me the only person I've ever looked at in a less than favorable light is Murray Wilson.  I know the way parents disciplined their children back in the era when the boys were being brought up is very different from the way it is now but if the story about Murray/Brian and the boat is true...I mean what parent does that to their kid?  I have no doubt that on some level Murray loved his boys but judging on the stories we've all been told he doesn't seem like the most affectionate or effective parent to say the least.

Mike Love has admitted at least in interviews that I've read that back in the sixties he was kind of "square".  He didn't embrace the drug scene and asked Brian Wilson to change the lyrics to "Hang Onto You Ego" because of the LSD content.  Brian faced an uphill battle at the time he was trying to pave his way and make his mark on the industry.  He was dealing with an industry that still had an old boys mentality and had no interest in what he or other artists wanted to achieve creatively and was only interested in the bottom line.  In many cases this remains the status quo today.  But it seems that Capitol Records more so than anyone else consistently found ways to put up road blocks or hurdles for Brian Wilson to jump through when in hindsight they should have really been appreciative to have such a talent signed to their label.  Hindsight is as they say 20/20.  It's important to remember though that this was the label that also turned down "Please Please Me", "From Me To You" and "She Loves You" and then continued to butcher The Beatles' albums for years.  As John Lennon once stated "We make em, they wreck em'".  So we weren't exactly dealing with rocket scientists here anyhow.

Brian Wilson made some mistakes in the sixties in terms of his experimentation with drugs.  In fairness to him the world was a lot more innocent back then and many folks of his generation didn't put much thought into what alcohol, cigarettes or drugs could potential do to their bodies and lives if abused.  I believe it was Marilyn Wilson who said it best when she mentioned that "Brian was just far too sensitive to been fooling away with drugs the way he did" or something to that extent.  There is really not much else that needs to be said beyond that.  The whole scene is incredibly tragic and to be quite frank Brian is fortunate to be doing as well as he is today.  There are many of his contemporaries who never had the chance for a C50 period and that is obviously very sad as well.

As for AGD: Guys let it be.  I didn't take any offense and may have actually worded my original post a bit wrong in trying to get my point across.  

[Wirestone]

Drugs are pretty much a red herring, at least in Brian's case, and certainly in the '60s. The man is mentally ill, probably from bipolar disorder, but likely with some other shadings (depressive and schizoaffective), and has been from a very young age. His problems began to manifest at the classic age for these things -- around 21-22 years old -- and worsened over the next few years, again as is typical. Drug or alcohol abuse is common for these folks, and often considered the problem by those around them, when it is in fact a method of self-medication. For someone like Brian, all of the "uppers" he took were likely a way to combat depressive episodes, or drive his manic state to productive new highs.

The drugs that truly damaged Brian were prescription, and were given to him by Landy in the late 80s and early 90s. Those threatened his life and health. Brian's general attitude now is, again, relatively typical of someone who is older and has somewhat "burned through" their mental illness, which tends to happen for some in their 60s. They no longer experience quite as severe highs or lows but have a somewhat "flat" affect. Let's put it this way: Brian's increased productivity and creativity maps almost exactly with that schedule -- he's been on a roll for the last decade or so. Proper medication clearly plays a role as well.

[JohnMill]

Drugs are pretty much a red herring, at least in Brian's case, and certainly in the '60s. The man is mentally ill, probably from bipolar disorder, but likely with some other shadings (depressive and schizoaffective), and has been from a very young age. His problems began to manifest at the classic age for these things -- around 21-22 years old -- and worsened over the next few years, again as is typical. Drug or alcohol abuse is common for these folks, and often considered the problem by those around them, when it is in fact a method of self-medication. For someone like Brian, all of the "uppers" he took were likely a way to combat depressive episodes, or drive his manic state to productive new highs.

While I agree with much with what you said regarding Brian's mental state in the sixties, I also think that his abuse of drugs exacerbated the situation to the point where he lost control of his life and that would obviously include his professional life.  I've heard people refer to Wilson time and time again as "rock's true acid casualty" and I can't say I completely disagree with that.  I think that while Wilson was likely someone who was dealing with an untreated and undiagnosed mental illness, he was also someone who generously partook in drugs and hallucinogenics to be more specific.  I think as he once stated it messed him up, messed his mind up.  I think it took him from being someone who was struggling with mental illness to the brink of self destruction and as I mentioned he's quite frankly lucky to have rebounded as well as he has.

[Moon Dawg]

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

 He just needs a bit of air. It must be hard to breathe with one's head so far up Mike's...saxophone. Looking forward to his liner notes to the Legacy Edition of LOOKING BACK WITH LOVE.

[Shady]

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

 He just needs a bit of air. It must be hard to breathe with one's head so far up Mike's...saxophone. Looking forward to his liner notes to the Legacy Edition of LOOKING BACK WITH LOVE.

 

AGD is gift and it's fantastic that we have people as educated and passionate as he is in the Beach Boys community...

But....somebody had to say it  

[Wirestone]

I've heard people refer to Wilson time and time again as "rock's true acid casualty" and I can't say I completely disagree with that.

That has nothing to do with what Brian's actual problems were. Just what the public perception of them was. Up until the last decade or so, it was far more acceptable socially to be a drug casualty than someone with ongoing mental illness.

I think that while Wilson was likely someone who was dealing with an untreated and undiagnosed mental illness, he was also someone who generously partook in drugs and hallucinogenics to be more specific.

It is my understanding that Brian took very few hallucinogenic drugs. And the times he tripped did not coincide with his periods of greatest crisis. Those coincided with difficulties in the group and his personal life -- again, as is often the case with mental illness.

I think as he once stated it messed him up, messed his mind up.

Again, that's Brian's understanding, as explained to him over decades by people who genuinely believed that drugs were his problem -- or wanted to believe that so they wouldn't have to deal with the facts of his illness.

Here's the thing. It wasn't until a year or three ago that it was known that Brian was briefly institutionalized in 1969. That was a secret that was kept in the Beach Boys world for some 40 years. The story of him trying to give heroin to one of his daughters? That was laughed about in the 80s, IIRC.

Mental institution = Crazy, scary, must be hushed up at all costs.
Heroin to daughter = Silly drug-addict Brian. Now that he's clean, everything's all right!

That's the very definition of stigma right there.

[Wirestone]

And every time we have this discussion on the board, I always find it curious when people passionately try to argue that Brian is a drug casualty as opposed to someone with a very real and ongoing mental problem. I suspect it unnerves people to believe that, because we truly want to think that people are responsible for their actions. And Brian's problem was that he wasn't properly treated for decades and in many ways can't be held responsible for a lot of things that went wrong in his life and the band's career.

[JohnMill]

And every time we have this discussion on the board, I always find it curious when people passionately try to argue that Brian is a drug casualty as opposed to someone with a very real and ongoing mental problem. I suspect it unnerves people to believe that, because we truly want to think that people are responsible for their actions. And Brian's problem was that he wasn't properly treated for decades and in many ways can't be held responsible for a lot of things that went wrong in his life and the band's career.

Well I'm not arguing that he didn't have an untreated and undiagnosed mental illness but still fervently believe that his abuse of drugs exacerbated the issue severely.  In one aspect we are in total agreement, in terms of whatever mental illness Brian Wilson suffered from, he at least in my opinion cannot be held responsible for the behavior stemming from these issues since unfortunately he is part of a "lost generation" many of whom suffered in silence and many others suffered greatly under the harsh treatment of an unenlightened and at times incompetent mental health system.  

As to why some passionately argue that Brian is a drug casualty rather than merely a survivor of mental illness alone?  It all comes down to how you view the matter I suppose and at the very least from where I stand the jury is still out on what caused the wheels to come off Brian's limo so to speak.  The bottom line is though obviously that he has survived and in many ways endured and that is something that I'm sure we are all very thankful for.

[Cam Mott]

I think the jury is probably still out too and it could be Brian blames drugs because that is his experience.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

 He just needs a bit of air. It must be hard to breathe with one's head so far up Mike's...saxophone. Looking forward to his liner notes to the Legacy Edition of LOOKING BACK WITH LOVE.

Is this available for pre-order yet?!!!!!?

[oldsurferdude]

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

 He just needs a bit of air. It must be hard to breathe with one's head so far up Mike's...saxophone. Looking forward to his liner notes to the Legacy Edition of LOOKING BACK WITH LOVE.

Not really-the problem is too much air and all of it hot. And yes, the 'tude is his mojo. Real shame someone couldn't have corrected the problem in junior high school.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I have given up on trying to establish whether or not Mike Love is a villain.  None of the narratives seem to agree with each other.  On one end of the spectrum you have David Leaf and his "Brian is a victim" narrative, on the other Mike Love with his explanations for disagreements ("Wilson brothers abused drugs" and "I loved SMiLE and only took issue with one lyric").  I for one love the music the BBs made in late 60's and early 70s, which, by most accounts, was something of a group effort creatively.  It's hard for me to buy the David Leaf story of the rest of the band being abusive towards Brian and corporate-minded when this music was not exactly "commercial" (both in the way the music sounds and in terms of sales).  Weren't all the Beach Boys relatively "far out" in some way or another at this point in time?  

I think most of us here will agree that much of the Beach Boys music post 70s is cheesy and uninspired, but I often wonder just how popular the Beach Boys would be if it weren't for Mike Love revisiting all the oldies.  I grew up on the Surfin Hits, and I've wondered if I would ever have discovered the more obscure Beach Boys material without this foundation.

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

As for AGD: Guys let it be.  I didn't take any offense and may have actually worded my original post a bit wrong in trying to get my point across.  

John, it be easy to say 'let it be' except that he is consistently rude, angry, condescending these days. He attacks some very nice people for no reason except that their comments apparently irritate him. He has gone from respected BB scholar and insider to what? The board bully, Mike/Bruce apologist and lord knows what else. It has grown extremely tiresome and boring.

I wonder why he doesn't just start his own blog where he can write unimpeded by us inferior humans.

[Wirestone]

Oh, for God's sake. Let the man be. He has a perspective, and he's better informed than most of us. AGD without some attitude would be like Beach Boys music without harmony.

[HeyJude]

The "beg to differ" was a response to the statement that "The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50". They weren't a byproduct of the success of C50, they were always part of the overall gameplan, as I understood it. I may be wrong, but seeing as the box set was announced alongside the tour, I may not.

I suppose an argument can be made that at least the live set was a byproduct of the success of the tour, or at least the fact that it didn't crash and burn. if it had royally sucked, they may have decided to forego the live DVD and CD set. I'm sure it was all part of an overall plan, but I'm not sure why there would be a need to downplay the success of the tour and C50 as a whole as if these projects would have all happened without it, or that they didn't become more likely and more successful because of the success of C50. I mean, unless you're a fan that is happy that the reunion ended and are happy to see it return the status quo.

[KittyKat]

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

 He just needs a bit of air. It must be hard to breathe with one's head so far up Mike's...saxophone. Looking forward to his liner notes to the Legacy Edition of LOOKING BACK WITH LOVE.

Not really-the problem is too much air and all of it hot. And yes, the 'tude is his mojo. Real shame someone couldn't have corrected the problem in junior high school.

So, you're saying that AGD should have been beaten up and punched when he was 12 years old? Nice, real nice.

[Seaside Woman]

Andrew's behaviour needs to be pulled up and I'm very happy to see some of the posters here take up that mantle but it's a shame such a great thread has to lose out to it.

[drbeachboy]

I find it unbelievable that a forum where people will argue over the smallest piece of information or opinions, will rip on AGD. You all ought to look in the mirror before calling someone else out.