Jardine challenges Love to battle of the bands in explosive interview...

[HeyJude]

I believe Mike and Bruce kept playing corporate dates with their lineup during the C50 tour.

Wirestone - if they played "already contracted for dates" under the "Touring Band" banner, is this a suggestion that they should have "breached the contract" and sullied the BB name," subject to the BRI oversight of shareholders? 

And, if all of this was on the table, when the "C50 event" was negotiated, it was likely a term of agreement among the parties.  It is a complex scenario.  They are always "damned if they do, and damned if they don't." 

I would have hoped by this stage that the realization would occur that we're not talking about the legalities and contracts. That being said, I don't think anybody is suggesting that any contracts should have been breached. But shows can be postponed or cancelled, simply put.

If Mike did non-C50 dates during the tour, the others presumably agreed to it. But it would indicate that under no circumstances did Mike envision even the possibility of permanently going forward with the reunion lineup.

[Mr. Wilson]

I agree with Hey Jude"s post above and his comments  mirror things said in Rolling Stone article..ML concerns were voiced there for the most part and I had a feeling that C50 was on thin ice.. The band WAS to big.! And the only one they could afford to let go and not miss was Nick because he was not a multi instrument kind of guy like+ Jeff Probyn + Scott . Also every time BW would intro a obscure tune to set list Mike / Scott would veto it but it would still go into set list.. HMM.? Mike never got to write with Brian also.. And there is something very telling in rolling stone interview. Mike resented BW havin his own tour bus with Jeff + no one else.. He said BW still likes to hide.WELL MIKE..He is your cousin and he is eccentric and somethings don't change..Now I went to Indio show and there was 2 big rigs for equipment and 2 tour busses.So do the math. BW + Jeff in one..4 BB+ 9 musicians+ PLUS road crew in ONE bus !!!! Scuse me but that was to save money NOT for comfort..My My it must have been crowded in there.. It appears from the outside that Mike made efforts to work with BW people and come to compromises.And it appears that BW got his way most of the time so M+B flew the coupe. There shows are for $$..C50 shows were for LEGACY + $$..I think Brian + company deserved to run the show this time..Mike has been runnin show longer than anyone else in BB. Now this time if they get back together more concessions from BW people will be in store.. And yes im PISSED about the band spintering again..I just played TWGMTR for a friend and he was shocked by the quality of the music + vocals..He disliked the same 2 songs I do..Bill+Sue and Beaches in Mind.. The album is no work of are but it is excellent..

[rab2591]

Wanting to co-write equally with Brian at first sounds like a high-minded, thoughtful, principled idea. But it’s not realistic for so many reasons, and I don’t think the motives behind it are so much high-minded and principled as they are ego-driven and nostalgia-driven. 

I honestly don't see how it's unrealistic....or how it's self-centered of Mike to want to write music with his old collaborator (unless he means he wants every song to be a Love/Wilson co-write, then yes I'd agree with you). And perhaps Mike's songwriting has been utter crap lately because he's not writing WITH one of America's greatest song writers, Brian Wilson.

Very much agree with the rest of your post, as well as Mr.Wilson's and JohnMill's.

[filledeplage]

I believe Mike and Bruce kept playing corporate dates with their lineup during the C50 tour.

Wirestone - if they played "already contracted for dates" under the "Touring Band" banner, is this a suggestion that they should have "breached the contract" and sullied the BB name," subject to the BRI oversight of shareholders?  

And, if all of this was on the table, when the "C50 event" was negotiated, it was likely a term of agreement among the parties.  It is a complex scenario.  They are always "damned if they do, and damned if they don't."  

I would have hoped by this stage that the realization would occur that we're not talking about the legalities and contracts. That being said, I don't think anybody is suggesting that any contracts should have been breached. But shows can be postponed or cancelled, simply put.

If Mike did non-C50 dates during the tour, the others presumably agreed to it. But it would indicate that under no circumstances did Mike envision even the possibility of permanently going forward with the reunion lineup.

Hey Jude - this is all BRI board room and not fanboard decision making.  And, existing performances booked under the Touring Band may have required fulfillment. We, as fans, don't know what ongoing obligations that the Touring Band had pre and post.  It ain't our business. IMHO  

 That business is so successful because  they've worked so hard, that they likely have and are booking out a year or two in advance.  They've established "goodwill" in the business context all over the world.  I've seen them about a half dozen times since the close of C50, to packed houses and very happy fans. (And I felt C50 was an absolutely spiritual event.) And a "limited engagement."

And nothing can be simply put because it is pure fan speculation.  And wishful thinking and conjecture.

[ontor pertawst]

I would say it's certainly our business as obsessive fans to comment on decisions we have no clue about with perfect certainty as to how to make them. Then argue with all the other perfect certainties. And holy sh*t, can you imagine how annoying it must be for the people involved? I'd avoid reading this gibberish for fear of rising blood pressure.

As it's been pointed out since seemingly time began, at least stop booking them while C50 picked up momentum and got offered stuff like Madison Square Garden, more tv shows, etc. Fulfill the existing touring band dates with as little mess as possible and then get back to playing prestigious venues that were asking for the full band. Worried about unemployed family and band mouths to feed? California Saga those f*ckers up and have them open for select gigs. Done. If as Mike feared, the novelty of the reunion wore off and they stopped getting those high profile gigs, then Mike would have a MUCH better case for going back to the touring band configuration, right? But when they were incredibly successful and getting offered more stuff, it just wasn't the time to pull the plug... especially if when they end up circling the drain in SeaWorld and not recording for a major label. It seems incredibly short-sighted and destructive when they are pushing 70 and unlikely to get more chances like this.

Despite how successful, competent, and fun the touring band is, playing Madison Square Garden tends to be seen as more successful than Nutty Jerry's. If you want to bring music to the people, that's a helpful place to make a stop. Also, it might be beneficial to appear on all the tv shows watched by millions of people who can't get to an Indian casino.  I wouldn't care if they weren't doing such great work together on stage and in the studio. It's a perpetual what-if that despite calls for common sense thinking and corporate responsibility, will be discussed for decades to come. Eventually we'll find out more about what really went on, I guess that's why all this shot in the dark theorizing and wailing of teeth annoys so many people. We don't know as much as we're used to knowing as obsessive fans. Me want thing I liked before only slightly different to buy! ANGRY WHEN NOT AVAILABLE! MUST BREAK THINGS!

I'm quite happy with how it's turning out, tho. More stuff. More shows. Weird instrumentals with not as much audible autotune! Joy in Mudville. Boxed set, more appearances... can you picture the weird sh*t that's gonna go down when that Brian movie gets released?

[Rocker]

Wanting to co-write equally with Brian at first sounds like a high-minded, thoughtful, principled idea. But it’s not realistic for so many reasons, and I don’t think the motives behind it are so much high-minded and principled as they are ego-driven and nostalgia-driven. 

I honestly don't see how it's unrealistic....or how it's self-centered of Mike to want to write music with his old collaborator (unless he means he wants every song to be a Love/Wilson co-write, then yes I'd agree with you). And perhaps Mike's songwriting has been utter crap lately because he's not writing WITH one of America's greatest song writers, Brian Wilson.

Very much agree with the rest of your post, as well as Mr.Wilson's and JohnMill's.

Regarding the co-writing with Brian one should ask "What if Brian doesn't want to write with Mike?". It's not like Mike couldn't ask Brian if they could sit down and see what comes up. I'm no insider but I don't believe the story of Brian being manipulated. The man has his sicknesses and needs help. Maybe Mike isn't used to that and sees this as manipulation. But I'm sure if Brian really wanted to write with Mike he would do it.
Not meant as Mike bashing, just one of a few aspects that really puzzle me.

[filledeplage]

I agree with Hey Jude"s post above and his comments  mirror things said in Rolling Stone article..ML concerns were voiced there for the most part and I had a feeling that C50 was on thin ice.. The band WAS to big.! And the only one they could afford to let go and not miss was Nick because he was not a multi instrument kind of guy like+ Jeff Probyn + Scott . Also every time BW would intro a obscure tune to set list Mike / Scott would veto it but it would still go into set list.. HMM.? Mike never got to write with Brian also.. And there is something very telling in rolling stone interview. Mike resented BW havin his own tour bus with Jeff + no one else.. He said BW still likes to hide.WELL MIKE..He is your cousin and he is eccentric and somethings don't change..Now I went to Indio show and there was 2 big rigs for equipment and 2 tour busses.So do the math. BW + Jeff in one..4 BB+ 9 musicians+ PLUS road crew in ONE bus !!!! Scuse me but that was to save money NOT for comfort..My My it must have been crowded in there.. It appears from the outside that Mike made efforts to work with BW people and come to compromises.And it appears that BW got his way most of the time so M+B flew the coupe. There shows are for $$..C50 shows were for LEGACY + $$..I think Brian + company deserved to run the show this time..Mike has been runnin show longer than anyone else in BB. Now this time if they get back together more concessions from BW people will be in store.. And yes im PISSED about the band spintering again..I just played TWGMTR for a friend and he was shocked by the quality of the music + vocals..He disliked the same 2 songs I do..Bill+Sue and Beaches in Mind.. The album is no work of are but it is excellent..

Someone mentioned the C50 Tour as an "embarrassment of riches" and I guess it was.  Necessary, to achieve a superb rendition of the music and yet so "over the top" with "baggage" and configuration that appeared almost necessary to become "extricated from."

 The Band performed so well with this support, and "special effects" and yet I felt this yearning to see MY Boys get "back to basics" which is what the Touring Band is, having seen the Band in a far simpler context from 1967.  

But, I'm not clear about why you are shocked by the quality of the music.  

[Andrew G. Doe]

I agree with Hey Jude"s post above and his comments  mirror things said in Rolling Stone article..ML concerns were voiced there for the most part and I had a feeling that C50 was on thin ice.. The band WAS to big.! And the only one they could afford to let go and not miss was Nick because he was not a multi instrument kind of guy like+ Jeff Probyn + Scott . Also every time BW would intro a obscure tune to set list Mike / Scott would veto it but it would still go into set list.. HMM.? Mike never got to write with Brian also.. And there is something very telling in rolling stone interview. Mike resented BW havin his own tour bus with Jeff + no one else.. He said BW still likes to hide.WELL MIKE..He is your cousin and he is eccentric and somethings don't change..Now I went to Indio show and there was 2 big rigs for equipment and 2 tour busses.So do the math. BW + Jeff in one..4 BB+ 9 musicians+ PLUS road crew in ONE bus !!!! Scuse me but that was to save money NOT for comfort..My My it must have been crowded in there.. It appears from the outside that Mike made efforts to work with BW people and come to compromises.And it appears that BW got his way most of the time so M+B flew the coupe. There shows are for $$..C50 shows were for LEGACY + $$..I think Brian + company deserved to run the show this time..Mike has been runnin show longer than anyone else in BB. Now this time if they get back together more concessions from BW people will be in store.. And yes im PISSED about the band spintering again..I just played TWGMTR for a friend and he was shocked by the quality of the music + vocals..He disliked the same 2 songs I do..Bill+Sue and Beaches in Mind.. The album is no work of are but it is excellent..

I'd be inclined to give this post more weight if only it wasn't so nearly illiterate. Get someone to show you how to use spell check. Grammar check too.

[Shady]

He was upset about how the album did?? Didn't TWGMTR go top 3?

Yeah, but total final sales were only around the 200,000 mark.  Which again, is not bad given how Beach Boys album sales have traditionally gone (only two albums have even hit 500,000 since "Pet Sounds")... but it's no "Kokomo" or "Still Cruisin'".

Cheers,
Jon BLum

Mike was unhappy with the sales, wow, It's a miracle the album did 200k.

* It was barley promoted for what.. a week?
* They only released one single
* And butchered that song twice on two TV shows
* If you're not a Beach Boys fan, TWGMTR the single is a pretty cheesy song that nobody under 40 is going to pay much attention to
* They ended up re-recording the perfect radio friendly song on the album, "isn't it time" and somehow made it worse. They actually made a really good song,         unlistenable.
* That horrible cover
* The horrible logo
* That horrible album title.

[rab2591]

Wanting to co-write equally with Brian at first sounds like a high-minded, thoughtful, principled idea. But it’s not realistic for so many reasons, and I don’t think the motives behind it are so much high-minded and principled as they are ego-driven and nostalgia-driven. 

I honestly don't see how it's unrealistic....or how it's self-centered of Mike to want to write music with his old collaborator (unless he means he wants every song to be a Love/Wilson co-write, then yes I'd agree with you). And perhaps Mike's songwriting has been utter crap lately because he's not writing WITH one of America's greatest song writers, Brian Wilson.

Very much agree with the rest of your post, as well as Mr.Wilson's and JohnMill's.

Regarding the co-writing with Brian one should ask "What if Brian doesn't want to write with Mike?". It's not like Mike couldn't ask Brian if they could sit down and see what comes up. I'm no insider but I don't believe the story of Brian being manipulated. The man has his sicknesses and needs help. Maybe Mike isn't used to that and sees this as manipulation. But I'm sure if Brian really wanted to write with Mike he would do it.
Not meant as Mike bashing, just one of a few aspects that really puzzle me.

Mike stated that the original plan was for him and Brian to write new songs together for TWGMTR (so they must have agreed to work together at some point) - and it didn't pan out. Perhaps Brian really didn't want to co-write with him - but if that's the case then it shows what an unhealthy creative relationship these guys have...and thus why Mike probably wants nothing to do with a second reunion album.

[HeyJude]

I believe Mike and Bruce kept playing corporate dates with their lineup during the C50 tour.

Wirestone - if they played "already contracted for dates" under the "Touring Band" banner, is this a suggestion that they should have "breached the contract" and sullied the BB name," subject to the BRI oversight of shareholders?  

And, if all of this was on the table, when the "C50 event" was negotiated, it was likely a term of agreement among the parties.  It is a complex scenario.  They are always "damned if they do, and damned if they don't."  

I would have hoped by this stage that the realization would occur that we're not talking about the legalities and contracts. That being said, I don't think anybody is suggesting that any contracts should have been breached. But shows can be postponed or cancelled, simply put.

If Mike did non-C50 dates during the tour, the others presumably agreed to it. But it would indicate that under no circumstances did Mike envision even the possibility of permanently going forward with the reunion lineup.

Hey Jude - this is all BRI board room and not fanboard decision making.  And, existing performances booked under the Touring Band may have required fulfillment. We, as fans, don't know what ongoing obligations that the Touring Band had pre and post.  It ain't our business. IMHO  

 That business is so successful because  they've worked so hard, that they likely have and are booking out a year or two in advance.  They've established "goodwill" in the business context all over the world.  I've seen them about a half dozen times since the close of C50, to packed houses and very happy fans. (And I felt C50 was an absolutely spiritual event.) And a "limited engagement."

And nothing can be simply put because it is pure fan speculation.  And wishful thinking and conjecture.

There are most certainly all sorts of corporate issues and legal issues that have to be dealt with, and I understand all of these. In terms of the BRI license, I’ve waded through all the publicly-available documents in the past 10-15 years, and I’m also aware of contract law pertaining to booking and performing live shows.

But in the end, these hand full of shows that Mike had booked and announced prior to C50 ending don’t mean anything. Even if we set aside the possibility of canceling the shows, or rescheduling them, or re-booking them as C50 shows, and so on, Mike could have easily performed any shows he had already booked, and *then* gone back to the reunion. This link being made between Mike not being able to cancel shows he had already booked and Mike not wanting to continue the reunion is not a link at all. The demise of the reunion was, at the end of the day, down to Mike’s choice to not continue.

The big mystery, which no longer matters, is how many shows Mike booked for his own band prior to or during the reunion tour. The thing is, I totally admit that Brian and Al seemed to be way too optimistic, to the point of being naïve, about the likelihood of Mike not going back to his own band. But I don’t buy that Mike had booked all of 2013 while the reunion was still going. This is important, because normally they probably would have had much if not most of 2013 booked by the fall of 2012. But even Mike was non-committal about post-reunion tour plans. I don’t buy that Brian and Al were *that* misguided and in the dark about Mike’s plans, to the point of actually thinking the reunion band would continue even though Mike had booked 100 shows in 2013 for his own band.

As far as building “goodwill” in the industry, this is of course generally true. But there is also evidence that Mike has diluted the trademark by continuing to tour so constantly, and doing so with a lineup with only two actual official members. I’d have to dig it up, but I believe the industry trade publication Pollstar had an article about the reunion tour and industry folks indicated that the reunion tour was a prestige event that was garnering interest from promoters who had previously seen the touring band as something of a second-tier, diluted item. There was/is a perception in the industry of the band that regularly has been touring as “The Beach Boys”, and it is one of less prestige than the reunion lineup. There would be no offers on the table for Madison Square Garden for Mike’s Beach Boys. Now, we can argue about our own preference for what types of venues and cities we want to see a show in. We also know Mike makes plenty of money and books plenty of shows with his current lineup. But if we’re talking about the industry perception and placement of “The Beach Boys”, then Mike’s current lineup in particular is a very mixed bag.

[HeyJude]

Someone mentioned the C50 Tour as an "embarrassment of riches" and I guess it was.  Necessary, to achieve a superb rendition of the music and yet so "over the top" with "baggage" and configuration that appeared almost necessary to become "extricated from."

 The Band performed so well with this support, and "special effects" and yet I felt this yearning to see MY Boys get "back to basics" which is what the Touring Band is, having seen the Band in a far simpler context from 1967.  

But, I'm not clear about why you are shocked by the quality of the music.  

An “embarrassment of riches” is an apt description. But I don’t think “over the top” is a readily apparent perception of the reunion band, other than as perceived by Mike and perhaps his accountants. Maybe over the top and needed to be extricated from when it comes to Mike’s ideas of revenue and control, but that’s not good enough of a reason to me to throw out that “embarrassment of riches.” The reunion tour apparently/presumably made plenty of money, and got rave reviews and interest from more promoters to book more shows, and from Capitol to do another album. There’s nothing in that scenario that, overall, sounds like “over the top.” Again, only Mike seemed to object to any of this.

As far as getting back to basics, I think a stripped-down, small band can be a good thing sometimes. But if the “touring band” are “your boys”, then more power to you. The current touring band has very little to do with the reunion band, or the 1967 band. Having seen the C50 tour, there was not one moment where the thought crossed my mind that “Gee, I wish the band was smaller and less lush”, or “Wow, this is great I guess, but I hope Brian, Al, and David are gone by next year and the band is smaller. Seeing Al Jardine tour with the band for the first time in 15 years is cool, but I miss Christian Love.”

[Mr. Wilson]

Thanks for your input AGD..Yea im not real good with computer"s and instead of writing complete sentances  and paragraph"s I write thoughts and then put a period. Then go forward with another thought..Period.. I don't allways use capitol letters at the beginning of a sentence either..But I noticed you STILL understand what im saying + writing..I do edit myself when posting to make it easier and faster to get my thoughts out in print.. I rarely post on boards now because of all the arguing and attitude.. You sir are at the top of the list.. You are rude on a regular basis..12 yrs ago when I started coming to BB message boards you were HIGHLY respected.. I noticed last few yrs people go off on you on regular basis..Why is that..?  HMM..How many words can you find that I spelled wrong on purpose..NOW.. I maybe wrong but U dissed me in public..Man I would never do that to you..I think ill go back to lurking.. Havent posted on this board since fall of 2011 till last week. Nothing"s changed with you..Enjoy your insider status..I don't need it.. You wallow in it.

[Shady]

When on tour with his band, Mike flies coach, stays in non-expensive hotels etc. Basically he's very cheap.

The lavishness of the C50 must have made him nuts.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

When on tour with his band, Mike flies coach, stays in non-expensive hotels etc. Basically he's very cheap.

The lavishness of the C50 must have made him nuts.

If he ever comes to York, he can sleep in my shed if he likes. We'll even throw in dinner as long as he doesn't try it on with my wife.

[Shady]

When on tour with his band, Mike flies coach, stays in non-expensive hotels etc. Basically he's very cheap.

The lavishness of the C50 must have made him nuts.

If he ever comes to York, he can sleep in my shed if he likes. We'll even throw in dinner as long as he doesn't try it on with my wife.

Is your wife in her early 20's? If not you should be fine

[filledeplage]

Someone mentioned the C50 Tour as an "embarrassment of riches" and I guess it was.  Necessary, to achieve a superb rendition of the music and yet so "over the top" with "baggage" and configuration that appeared almost necessary to become "extricated from."

 The Band performed so well with this support, and "special effects" and yet I felt this yearning to see MY Boys get "back to basics" which is what the Touring Band is, having seen the Band in a far simpler context from 1967.  

But, I'm not clear about why you are shocked by the quality of the music.  

An “embarrassment of riches” is an apt description. But I don’t think “over the top” is a readily apparent perception of the reunion band, other than as perceived by Mike and perhaps his accountants. Maybe over the top and needed to be extricated from when it comes to Mike’s ideas of revenue and control, but that’s not good enough of a reason to me to throw out that “embarrassment of riches.” The reunion tour apparently/presumably made plenty of money, and got rave reviews and interest from more promoters to book more shows, and from Capitol to do another album. There’s nothing in that scenario that, overall, sounds like “over the top.” Again, only Mike seemed to object to any of this.

As far as getting back to basics, I think a stripped-down, small band can be a good thing sometimes. But if the “touring band” are “your boys”, then more power to you. The current touring band has very little to do with the reunion band, or the 1967 band. Having seen the C50 tour, there was not one moment where the thought crossed my mind that “Gee, I wish the band was smaller and less lush”, or “Wow, this is great I guess, but I hope Brian, Al, and David are gone by next year and the band is smaller. Seeing Al Jardine tour with the band for the first time in 15 years is cool, but I miss Christian Love.”

The term "embarrassment of riches" is not mine. And, I maintain that it was likely necessary given it was an "event," to do justice to the work.  I absolutely loved the visuals of their many LP's playing onscreen, onstage.  It gave context to their career; their highs and not so.  I see Brian and Al whenever possible.  The 1967 model was about 8 musicians max.  That is "back to basics" in my personal context.  And, not to exclude or include one over the other.  But, C50 was an "event."

And, BRI likely, sets the Touring Band's parameters.  And, it was an agreement.  It doesn't matter what bookings were made, but the whole circuit of entertainment venues did not have the "annual visit" from the Touring Band. Thinking in terms of "See you next year, BB's!" After Carl died, it looked dismal for any BB's. And it was delightful that Mike was willing to step up to the challenge of rebuilding a viable Band, who could keep the music alive in the "live" context.  Lots of naysayers back then who now have to "eat their words with a fork and spoon."  

So, with C50 involvement, the other branch of the business, seemed to be put "on hold."  This has been debated ad nauseum.  

  - as my mother would say having a J&B with lunch, "It's four o'clock somewhere!"  

[TimmyC]

Our evidence at hand, including the likelihood that post-C50 Mike/Bruce dates were booked very early into if not prior to the beginning of the reunion tour, suggests to me that Mike planned all along to go back to his thing, and perhaps he just became less and less willing to not do things his own way as the C50 project progressed. That’s all fine for him to do whatever he wants, but I don’t see any indication that somebody else in the organization did something so heinous that soured Mike and stopped him from continuing the reunion.

Hey Jude, GREAT POST as always. Your concluding paragraph though this leads me to what I believe may actually be the biggest and most interesting question of all:

**WHY DID MIKE LOVE AGREE TO DO THE 50th AT ALL?**

(in caps because I think it's a really important question, not because I'm asking it out of incredulity or anger ). Does anyone have an answer and/or theory?

[Rocker]

Wanting to co-write equally with Brian at first sounds like a high-minded, thoughtful, principled idea. But it’s not realistic for so many reasons, and I don’t think the motives behind it are so much high-minded and principled as they are ego-driven and nostalgia-driven. 

I honestly don't see how it's unrealistic....or how it's self-centered of Mike to want to write music with his old collaborator (unless he means he wants every song to be a Love/Wilson co-write, then yes I'd agree with you). And perhaps Mike's songwriting has been utter crap lately because he's not writing WITH one of America's greatest song writers, Brian Wilson.

Very much agree with the rest of your post, as well as Mr.Wilson's and JohnMill's.

Regarding the co-writing with Brian one should ask "What if Brian doesn't want to write with Mike?". It's not like Mike couldn't ask Brian if they could sit down and see what comes up. I'm no insider but I don't believe the story of Brian being manipulated. The man has his sicknesses and needs help. Maybe Mike isn't used to that and sees this as manipulation. But I'm sure if Brian really wanted to write with Mike he would do it.
Not meant as Mike bashing, just one of a few aspects that really puzzle me.

Mike stated that the original plan was for him and Brian to write new songs together for TWGMTR (so they must have agreed to work together at some point) - and it didn't pan out. Perhaps Brian really didn't want to co-write with him - but if that's the case then it shows what an unhealthy creative relationship these guys have...and thus why Mike probably wants nothing to do with a second reunion album.

IIRC Joe Thomas said that the songs were mostly finished when he and Brian went to Capitol to ask if they would release it but only as a Beach Boys album as Brian was explicit about.
"Isn't it time" I believe came along when Brian, Mike and the other co-writers were somewhere and Mike started with that bassline.
And I don't think it would show a "unhealthy relationship". First many of the songs were finished, second Mike got to write some lyrics for three songs and third if Brian feels someone else will write better lyrics for e.g. "Summer's gone" then why should he turn to Mike? It's not that his contributions to the three songs on TWGMTR would let to high expectations. I understand that Mike wants to sit down with Brian alone in a room and start work and I appreciate that. But why try to force him to do it that way if he nowadays seems to work differently? I'm sure if Mike would come up with some worthwhile ideas/lyrics no one would ignore it.

[JohnMill]

One thing that has never adequately been explained (to my satisfaction anyhow, not that that matters in the grand scheme of things mind you) is that whenever a case is made for Mike Love's decision not to carry on, the lynch pin seems to be that he couldn't handle all of the drama (for lack of a better word) that went along with having Brian Wilson in the band.  Everything from Brian's entourage, to Brian allegedly not being able to commit to The Beach Boys' hard touring schedule to not being able to write songs one on one with Brian.  Whenever that road is headed down by someone making the case for Mike Love not wanting to continue on with the C50, it all seems to be very Brian Wilson centric.

That brings me to my question of what is to be said about Al Jardine and David Marks?  If this was as much of a Brian Wilson centric issue for Mike Love as many have put forth, why didn't Mike just simply invite Al Jardine and David Marks along to join M&B and continue touring the circuit like that?  Now if Al and Dave had accepted the invitation that would've no doubt enraged the hardcores who would've seen the issue as the entire group kicking Brian Wilson to the curb.  But the question remains the same, if the issues regarding why Mike Love chose not to go forward with the C50 were so Brian Wilson centric, why were Jardine and Marks "kicked to the curb" as well?

One other point that I think bears repeating regarding personal relationships vs. professional relationships.  It's one thing to enjoy the company of another person in your personal life but it's another thing all together to actually enjoy doing business with them.  In all this post C50 melodrama, one thing that I've found to get consistently misstated at least in my opinion is that Mike Love's refusal to go forward with the C50 was due to some personal dislike of the erstwhile/jettisoned Beach Boys.  Again there is a difference between liking someone and wanting to do business with them and I think from my vantage point that crucial difference is lost on many in discussing this issue even those who are directly involved and affected by the decision not to go forward with the C50.  Remember it was only a few weeks ago that Alan Jardine's son Matt was brought onstage at a M&B show which may speak at least to the notion that at least from Mike Love's perspective the decision not to go forward was simply a desire not to do business anymore with the jettisoned Beach Boys and not an indication of any personal malice towards them on his part.  Unfortunately that seems to have gotten lost in translation just as I'm sure that Mike Love's essay in the MIC boxset will be looked at a sanctimonious if it contains anything remotely positive about the jettisoned Beach Boys.

And no once again I'm not a Mike Love apologist.  In my personal and very subjective opinion, he made the wrong decision not going forward with the C50.

PS: I like "That's Why God Made The Radio" (the song) and really don't give a hoot what anyone under forty thinks of it.  Most of them grew up in an era where Michael Jackson's music was about as far back as most of their musical knowledge went.  Sadly there is a generation out there now whose earliest musical memories are that of Britney Spears.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Our evidence at hand, including the likelihood that post-C50 Mike/Bruce dates were booked very early into if not prior to the beginning of the reunion tour, suggests to me that Mike planned all along to go back to his thing, and perhaps he just became less and less willing to not do things his own way as the C50 project progressed. That’s all fine for him to do whatever he wants, but I don’t see any indication that somebody else in the organization did something so heinous that soured Mike and stopped him from continuing the reunion.

Hey Jude, GREAT POST as always. Your concluding paragraph though this leads me to what I believe may actually be the biggest and most interesting question of all:

**WHY DID MIKE LOVE AGREE TO DO THE 50th AT ALL?**

(in caps because I think it's a really important question, not because I'm asking it out of incredulity or anger ). Does anyone have an answer and/or theory?

Same reason Brian Wilson, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston & David Marks did.

[Autotune]

Thing is, he didn't say that: according to Wirestone, what he said was, Capitol took the option of a second BB album off the table after Mike 'blew up the group' (which he didn't). Which I read as, the company declined to pick up the option when they realised that Mike was sticking to the pre-arranged gameplan. Less emotive, to be sure, and a less satisfying strapline, but more accurate.

And that's the whole debate right there. Mike and his guys take the first approach, and talk about it in rational, businessman terms. Brian and Al take the second, and look at it in a very emotional, vibe-based way.

Interesting. Mike's approach in interviews regarding the end of c50 has been of the rational businessman type. But the C50 was inmensely  emotion-driven for all, including -and it seems most specially- Mike himself. His interviews during those days were candid and touching and so was his speech at the California Saga performance... He even took the time mid-tour to do that. My point is that there have to be profound, emotional reasons for Mike not to keep doing the C50 thing besides his business-like arguments.

[filledeplage]

Wanting to co-write equally with Brian at first sounds like a high-minded, thoughtful, principled idea. But it’s not realistic for so many reasons, and I don’t think the motives behind it are so much high-minded and principled as they are ego-driven and nostalgia-driven.  

I honestly don't see how it's unrealistic....or how it's self-centered of Mike to want to write music with his old collaborator (unless he means he wants every song to be a Love/Wilson co-write, then yes I'd agree with you). And perhaps Mike's songwriting has been utter crap lately because he's not writing WITH one of America's greatest song writers, Brian Wilson.

Very much agree with the rest of your post, as well as Mr.Wilson's and JohnMill's.
[/quote

Regarding the co-writing with Brian one should ask "What if Brian doesn't want to write with Mike?". It's not like Mike couldn't ask Brian if they could sit down and see what comes up. I'm no insider but I don't believe the story of Brian being manipulated. The man has his sicknesses and needs help. Maybe Mike isn't used to that and sees this as manipulation. But I'm sure if Brian really wanted to write with Mike he would do it.
Not meant as Mike bashing, just one of a few aspects that really puzzle me.

Mike stated that the original plan was for him and Brian to write new songs together for TWGMTR (so they must have agreed to work together at some point) - and it didn't pan out. Perhaps Brian really didn't want to co-write with him - but if that's the case then it shows what an unhealthy creative relationship these guys have...and thus why Mike probably wants nothing to do with a second reunion album.

If there was one tiny C50 disappointment (for me) it would be that Brian and Mike did not co-compose as the legendary dynamic duo who built the BB's.  At least half of the music, and the other half with the other remarkably talented musician "principals." (LiveNation term) And, maybe that could be something to work towards.  (I mean no disrespect toward any other lyricists.)  I think that fiery chemistry, between those two guys, in that context will never be extinguished.  

A hundred years from now, when we're long gone, I think the Band will be "objectively" remembered as a "family band with two cousins who established themselves with music synergy, as between music and lyrics."  JMHO  
(sorry I messed up on the iPad [Bad iPad!]  I responded to the post below - mea culpa! 



IIRC Joe Thomas said that the songs were mostly finished when he and Brian went to Capitol to ask if they would release it but only as a Beach Boys album as Brian was explicit about.
"Isn't it time" I believe came along when Brian, Mike and the other co-writers were somewhere and Mike started with that bassline.
And I don't think it would show a "unhealthy relationship". First many of the songs were finished, second Mike got to write some lyrics for three songs and third if Brian feels someone else will write better lyrics for e.g. "Summer's gone" then why should he turn to Mike? It's not that his contributions to the three songs on TWGMTR would let to high expectations. I understand that Mike wants to sit down with Brian alone in a room and start work and I appreciate that. But why try to force him to do it that way if he nowadays seems to work differently? I'm sure if Mike would come up with some worthwhile ideas/lyrics no one would ignore it.

[TimmyC]

Our evidence at hand, including the likelihood that post-C50 Mike/Bruce dates were booked very early into if not prior to the beginning of the reunion tour, suggests to me that Mike planned all along to go back to his thing, and perhaps he just became less and less willing to not do things his own way as the C50 project progressed. That’s all fine for him to do whatever he wants, but I don’t see any indication that somebody else in the organization did something so heinous that soured Mike and stopped him from continuing the reunion.

Hey Jude, GREAT POST as always. Your concluding paragraph though this leads me to what I believe may actually be the biggest and most interesting question of all:

**WHY DID MIKE LOVE AGREE TO DO THE 50th AT ALL?**

(in caps because I think it's a really important question, not because I'm asking it out of incredulity or anger ). Does anyone have an answer and/or theory?

Same reason Brian Wilson, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston & David Marks did.

You are a cruel man AGD. But it's an honor to be insulted by you.

[JohnMill]

Thing is, he didn't say that: according to Wirestone, what he said was, Capitol took the option of a second BB album off the table after Mike 'blew up the group' (which he didn't). Which I read as, the company declined to pick up the option when they realised that Mike was sticking to the pre-arranged gameplan. Less emotive, to be sure, and a less satisfying strapline, but more accurate.

And that's the whole debate right there. Mike and his guys take the first approach, and talk about it in rational, businessman terms. Brian and Al take the second, and look at it in a very emotional, vibe-based way.

Interesting. Mike's approach in interviews regarding the end of c50 has been of the rational businessman type. But the C50 was inmensely  emotion-driven for all, including -and it seems most specially- Mike himself. His interviews during those days were candid and touching and so was his speech at the California Saga performance... He even took the time mid-tour to do that. My point is that there have to be profound, emotional reasons for Mike not to keep doing the C50 thing besides his business-like arguments.

Good point but as I mentioned above the fact that Mike Love allowed Matt Jardine to appear at a M&B show tells me that at the very least he hasn't written off the jettisoned Beach Boys or their family members in a personal sense.  Therefore I think that perhaps the correct way of stating Mike Love's point of view regarding the stomping of the C50 was that it was a business decision motivated by strong personal feelings regarding how business was being conducted during the course of the C50 tour.  The problem is given that Mike Love has yet to take a public stance as to why the C50 was stomped, the only side of the tale that is out there is the emotional reaction from the jettisoned Beach Boys as to the stomping of the C50 tour whom from all appearances took Love's decision not to carry on on a very personal level.  

In addition the way the end of the C50 was handled from a public relations perspective was egregious.  There were falsehoods, recriminations and appearances of one hand not knowing what the other was doing in regards to the inclusive unit known as "The Beach Boys" (as opposed to the M&B unit operating under the same name).  This kind of press didn't do anyone any good regardless of whose side you are taking and probably has added greatly to a lot of the negativity surrounding the entire issue for many of the hardcores.  In conclusion I think it's one reason this topic keeps coming up aside from the fact that the band members themselves keep bringing it to the forefront.  There just seems to be a very negative vibe surrounding "The Beach Boys" right now something that you would think would've been the antithesis of the image, spirit or message they were trying to project to the world at large during the C50

Edit: There is something else interesting that I just noticed in AGD's original post referencing Wirestone's comments on Capitol's decision not to go forward with their plans of offering The Beach Boys an opportunity to record another record.  If I'm reading this correctly once Mike Love decided to revert back to continuing touring "The Beach Boys" in their M&B incarnation, Capitol immediately responded by yanking the offer of a new Beach Boys record off the table?  Is that to say that if The Beach Boys wished to record another record as an inclusive unit but have the live group tour under their M&B guise that that wouldn't have been kosher as far as Capitol was concerned?  Were The Beach Boys obligated to stay an inclusive unit as a touring act under their C50 guise in order to be given the opportunity to record another record for Capitol?  If so why was Brian Wilson then offered a contract in short order by Capitol records to record a solo album which essentially is going to "replace" the second Beach Boys' reunion album that is apparently never to be?