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Author Topic: This is how the human race will destroy itself:  (Read 20184 times)
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2013, 11:26:24 AM »

Just want to jump in with an observation and question regarding unions and freedom of association concepts. As much as there is the notion of "freedom of association", how about something I'd term "freedom to not associate"?

It's an issue I saw around what was called "Card Check" for many years and recently started to fall under the label "Employee Free Choice Act" or EFCA.

The unions favoring this proposal point to the rights of employees to unionize then have that union recognized based on the percentage of workers who vote to join the union being organized at their workplace.

Those opposing EFCA point to what would eliminate the process of a secret ballot system, where instead of casting their votes to join or reject unionization, the results of who was voting and how they were voting would not be private, and those who may vote against the union may be compelled to change their vote through coercion or intimidation either from union organizers or from fellow co-workers or even management or ownership of the business when they'd either sign the ballot in public, in front of these people in the open, or have their names and their votes made available.

As much as there is the freedom to associate to consider, how would the "card check" proposals which included eliminating a secret or anonymous ballot system ensure the right of those workers to not associate with a particular union by having their votes kept private and therefore not subjecting them to even the threat of retaliation from either the union or the business?
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2013, 11:27:48 AM »

And again, you are badly missing the point on freedom of association. It simply guarantees the rights of people to assemble and has nothing to do with people's right to exclude others. In fact, given the traditional understanding of the term freedom of association, Civil Rights laws in reaction against segregationist policies, were far more in favour of freedom of association than what you are proposing.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2013, 11:31:35 AM »

Just want to jump in with an observation and question regarding unions and freedom of association concepts. As much as there is the notion of "freedom of association", how about something I'd term "freedom to not associate"?

It's an issue I saw around what was called "Card Check" for many years and recently started to fall under the label "Employee Free Choice Act" or EFCA.

The unions favoring this proposal point to the rights of employees to unionize then have that union recognized based on the percentage of workers who vote to join the union being organized at their workplace.

Those opposing EFCA point to what would eliminate the process of a secret ballot system, where instead of casting their votes to join or reject unionization, the results of who was voting and how they were voting would not be private, and those who may vote against the union may be compelled to change their vote through coercion or intimidation either from union organizers or from fellow co-workers or even management or ownership of the business when they'd either sign the ballot in public, in front of these people in the open, or have their names and their votes made available.

As much as there is the freedom to associate to consider, how would the "card check" proposals which included eliminating a secret or anonymous ballot system ensure the right of those workers to not associate with a particular union by having their votes kept private and therefore not subjecting them to even the threat of retaliation from either the union or the business?

Yes, people should have the right not to associate though it's a real achievement of propaganda that one should associate coercion and intimidation with the union given the reality of labour history.
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Jason
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2013, 11:35:48 AM »

A business owner should have the right to refuse association with unions and to fire those who wish to join one.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2013, 11:41:08 AM »

It's the issue of the secret ballot for me: I cannot understand why there was such a strong opposition from union leaders and spokespersons at the times the issue had come up for proposal and debate in Washington.

Stating it again, why were the unions and their supporters so vehemently and publicly opposed to the secret ballot process in terms of workers voting for or against joining a union?
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2013, 11:45:00 AM »

A business owner should have the right to refuse association with unions and to fire those who wish to join one.

Yes, like any good leader of a tyrannical dictatorship, where the only rights belong to the person in charge and he or she can do whatever he or she wants to the vast majority. You are describing the perfect dictatorship.

At any rate, this is somewhat shifting the goal posts at this point to a position that is somewhat laughable given the historical relationship between freedom of association and trade unionism.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 11:46:58 AM by rockandroll » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2013, 11:50:24 AM »

Sorry - in a rush to get out the door. Will be gone for most of the weekend.
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Jason
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« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2013, 11:51:42 AM »

You are excellent at adding two and two and ending up with twenty-two. The property owner has final say as to what happens on his or her property. By your logic I should be allowed to enter your home without invitation because if you don't let me in you're a tyrannical dictator.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2013, 11:57:21 AM »

A person's right to cast a secret ballot vote without fear of reprisal of any kind from anyone in a position of leadership or power based on that vote would seem to be a major deterrent to a dictatorship. Which again is why I need to question the strong opposition from union leadership to the secret balloting process of employees voting yes or no to forming a union.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2013, 12:46:16 PM »

And Meister, read Meister too

And what's going to happen? He'll close the book when finished and suddenly think just like you? I doubt that's how it works.... Reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian nor did "Christianity" (Nietzsche) make me an Atheist.... We are who we are and we will gravitate toward and prop up works of art and information that confirm our self image...... which is exactly the way it ISN'T supposed to work. But we are merely human.

Felix! How many times have I told you not to drink from the pitcher!

Should we take this over to the "What Beer Do You Drink" thread? Wink

« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 12:55:02 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2013, 12:57:59 PM »

And Meister, read Meister too

And what's going to happen? He'll close the book when finished and suddenly think just like you? I doubt that's how it works.... Reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian nor did "Christianity" (Nietzsche) make me an Atheist.... We are who we are and we will gravitate toward and prop up works of art and information that confirm our self image...... which is exactly the way it ISN'T supposed to work. But we are merely human.

This is my #1 all time favorite post here. The dismissive tone combined with the accidental recapitulation of major thematic strains from the novel make it downright delectable.

Well, I haven't read the book, so who cares? Delectable to you and you only. Anyone else just sees that you didn't answer the question...
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Dunderhead
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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2013, 05:02:00 PM »

And Meister, read Meister too

And what's going to happen? He'll close the book when finished and suddenly think just like you? I doubt that's how it works.... Reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian nor did "Christianity" (Nietzsche) make me an Atheist.... We are who we are and we will gravitate toward and prop up works of art and information that confirm our self image...... which is exactly the way it ISN'T supposed to work. But we are merely human.

This is my #1 all time favorite post here. The dismissive tone combined with the accidental recapitulation of major thematic strains from the novel make it downright delectable.

Well, I haven't read the book, so who cares? Delectable to you and you only. Anyone else just sees that you didn't answer the question...

Considering it was clearly a rhetorical question, I'm not going to be loosing any sleep over it, promise.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2013, 05:09:39 PM »

And Meister, read Meister too

And what's going to happen? He'll close the book when finished and suddenly think just like you? I doubt that's how it works.... Reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian nor did "Christianity" (Nietzsche) make me an Atheist.... We are who we are and we will gravitate toward and prop up works of art and information that confirm our self image...... which is exactly the way it ISN'T supposed to work. But we are merely human.

This is my #1 all time favorite post here. The dismissive tone combined with the accidental recapitulation of major thematic strains from the novel make it downright delectable.

Well, I haven't read the book, so who cares? Delectable to you and you only. Anyone else just sees that you didn't answer the question...

Considering it was clearly a rhetorical question, I'm not going to be loosing any sleep over it, promise.

Probably better that way.....

I honestly don't get you..... Minus one lengthy statement which basically just demonstrated apathy, all you've done is recommend a book.... over and over and have shrugged off any efforts by rocknroll to initiate a conversation with this intellectual pose and not so subtle hostility.

 Um, my favorite book is Kangaroo by DH Lawrence. You should read it..... I guess I'll repeat this statement over and over and over....

But seriously: the book does have relevance toward such discussions as these...

And I have looked into On The Aesthetic Education Of Man, and will get my hands on a copy.... The French Revolution interests me greatly, so I am looking forward to it. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 05:19:53 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
Dunderhead
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2013, 08:45:56 PM »

And Meister, read Meister too

And what's going to happen? He'll close the book when finished and suddenly think just like you? I doubt that's how it works.... Reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian nor did "Christianity" (Nietzsche) make me an Atheist.... We are who we are and we will gravitate toward and prop up works of art and information that confirm our self image...... which is exactly the way it ISN'T supposed to work. But we are merely human.

This is my #1 all time favorite post here. The dismissive tone combined with the accidental recapitulation of major thematic strains from the novel make it downright delectable.

Well, I haven't read the book, so who cares? Delectable to you and you only. Anyone else just sees that you didn't answer the question...

Considering it was clearly a rhetorical question, I'm not going to be loosing any sleep over it, promise.

Probably better that way.....

I honestly don't get you..... Minus one lengthy statement which basically just demonstrated apathy, all you've done is recommend a book.... over and over and have shrugged off any efforts by rocknroll to initiate a conversation with this intellectual pose and not so subtle hostility.

 Um, my favorite book is Kangaroo by DH Lawrence. You should read it..... I guess I'll repeat this statement over and over and over....

But seriously: the book does have relevance toward such discussions as these...

And I have looked into On The Aesthetic Education Of Man, and will get my hands on a copy.... The French Revolution interests me greatly, so I am looking forward to it. 

You should read it, it's great
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