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Author Topic: Brian Wilson's 11th solo album announced today  (Read 92381 times)
Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #475 on: September 05, 2013, 07:47:57 AM »

Just a hunch, speculation, but I think Jeff Beck will contribute more than guitar playing, just as I think Joe Thomas' role will be more than Executive Producer and/or Producer.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 07:49:27 AM by Sheriff John Stone » Logged
Pablo.
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« Reply #476 on: September 05, 2013, 07:49:06 AM »

If Thomas is credited as "executive producer" it will be an euphemism as it was his credit as "recording" on TWGMTR. If he's actually co-producing, then give him credit. Can't understand why the Brian people insist on the "Produced by (just) Brian Wilson" as a trademark.

Beck's thing is not songwriting, composing or production (he doesn't get much credit for those things on his own albums), but his unique magic with his guitar. I expect him taking Brian's music to some place not other guitar player could take it. A recent example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGfDslwCYAc
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 07:55:23 AM by Pablo. » Logged
phirnis
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« Reply #477 on: September 05, 2013, 07:55:13 AM »

I think using "Produced by BW" when others were actually co-producing really cheapens the BW production credit, which is a shame.
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« Reply #478 on: September 05, 2013, 08:00:21 AM »

He does a decent job on Brian vocally, but I'd argue the vocals on the Gershwin and Disney records are a sizeable amount better than those of TWGMTR.

Totally disagree. I much prefer Brian's TWGMTR vocals to the vocals on either of the two other albums.

Also, about Jeff Beck-- I'm no music guru (I like who/what I like and don't dig too deep behind the music), and this question may be blasphemous to some, but who is Jeff Beck and why the hell do I care if he plays on 5 tracks?

he played with the yardbirds and in the 70s he started playing in a more jazzy way becoming a kind of guitarist's guitarist (if technical proficiency is your thing). I'd be interested to hear how his playing complements Brian's songwriting.
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Jim V.
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« Reply #479 on: September 05, 2013, 08:03:38 AM »

I'm keeping my expectations low. I can't see BW knocking out a tour de force album any time soon (no dispespect but I just don't think grand, consistent artistic album statements are his thing these days, if they ever were outside of Pet Sounds and Smile). I do hope for a few more gem tracks in the From Here To Back Again vein though, or a complete Life Suite if it really does exist. That would be amazing.

This is something that hasn't been addressed too often. I really like the notion of his contributions to the group's early-70s records being his "postcards to the outside world" and with the exception of Love You it probably should have stayed that way, in a healthy manner anyway. He probably hasn't been in "Pet Sounds mode" for a very long time and that's alright. Less really is more sometimes.

Actually, I totally agree with you on this, that Brian contributing a few "postcards to the outside world" on each album. I did think it was really neat. And it's probably how things should have stayed in the mid '70s rather than giving him the reins, unless he wanted them, which it didn't seem he did.

But yeah, at the same time, I'm not expecting a crazy good album. I am expecting a few new classics though. I do believe he has it in him to put out some more great songs.
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Cyncie
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« Reply #480 on: September 05, 2013, 08:13:04 AM »

Well. We certainly know how to short change poor old Brian."If other people are involved, obviously he's not doing much of it himself. Just a poor old puppet, our Brian. I dread hearing what comes out of this. Curse Joe Thomas!"

I think Brian's working and creating the way he wants to and needs to at this stage in his life. He's not an energetic 23 year old anymore and when you've nearly burned out by pushing yourself too hard, you eventually learn to let go of some of the details and delegate.  It's a healthier way to work, and while the product won't be 100% Brian, it will be what Brian wants to accomplish at this stage. And, if he's at the center of the creativity, he's the producer.

We can like or not. That's all down to taste. But, I won't complain that he's got some assistance or assume that the credits are being skewed to protect his "legacy." Really. Is Joe Thomas that desperate for work that he would consistently give Brian credit while he does all of the heavy lifting? Executive producers keep the project on track and assist with producing. Producers oversee the creative and recording process. I don't see where there's any duplicity in describing Brian as producer, even if Joe Thomas is part of the process.

I really don't get all the Joe hate. I like TWGMTR, so I have no beef with Joe Thomas there. I agree that the autotune on the live CD could have been dialed back, but I still enjoy listening to it in my car CD player.  And, I keep in mind that without Joe Thomas' production company's backing and massive support system, the absolutely awesome 50th reunion would have never happened. That alone makes him OK in my book.
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Iron Horse-Apples
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« Reply #481 on: September 05, 2013, 08:25:26 AM »


I really don't get all the Joe hate. I like TWGMTR, so I have no beef with Joe Thomas there. I agree that the autotune on the live CD could have been dialed back, but I still enjoy listening to it in my car CD player.  And, I keep in mind that without Joe Thomas' production company's backing and massive support system, the absolutely awesome 50th reunion would have never happened. That alone makes him OK in my book.


I don't hate him. I hate his production style. I find Imagination unlistenable. I find TWGMTR unlistenable. I find the 50th Live Concert unlistenable. Do you get that?

I'm glad you don't mind his production. I'm happy for you,  but try to accept that some people don't, "then we'll get, y'know, board peace"
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bonnevillemariner
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« Reply #482 on: September 05, 2013, 08:27:38 AM »

he played with the yardbirds and in the 70s he started playing in a more jazzy way becoming a kind of guitarist's guitarist (if technical proficiency is your thing). I'd be interested to hear how his playing complements Brian's songwriting.

Vocals is my thing.  Unless I was purposely looking for differences, I wouldn't be able to tell Jeff Beck's playing from any other session guy's playing.  The Beck thing doesn't excite me as much as the inclusion of Al, vocally.
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Pablo.
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« Reply #483 on: September 05, 2013, 08:51:29 AM »


Vocals is my thing.  Unless I was purposely looking for differences, I wouldn't be able to tell Jeff Beck's playing from any other session guy's playing.  The Beck thing doesn't excite me as much as the inclusion of Al, vocally.

Believe me, if you listen to Beck (never a session guy, unless some hi-profile work with people like Jagger) you'll be able to tell, since his way of playing is unique. (if another guitar player sounds like him, it's because he's copying him). Although he's also an expert on the styles of people like Cliff Gallup or Les Paul. It would be interesting to hear this side of him in some Brian's stuff
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 08:55:54 AM by Pablo. » Logged
Cyncie
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« Reply #484 on: September 05, 2013, 08:53:15 AM »


I really don't get all the Joe hate. I like TWGMTR, so I have no beef with Joe Thomas there. I agree that the autotune on the live CD could have been dialed back, but I still enjoy listening to it in my car CD player.  And, I keep in mind that without Joe Thomas' production company's backing and massive support system, the absolutely awesome 50th reunion would have never happened. That alone makes him OK in my book.


I don't hate him. I hate his production style. I find Imagination unlistenable. I find TWGMTR unlistenable. I find the 50th Live Concert unlistenable. Do you get that?

I'm glad you don't mind his production. I'm happy for you,  but try to accept that some people don't, "then we'll get, y'know, board peace"

I do "get that."  I accept it. That's why I said this:

Quote
We can like or not. That's all down to taste

My question about the "Joe hate" was a sincere one. TWGMTR and the tour seemed to be well received by fans and critics. Yes, the live album is a bit of a miss, but given the success of the other album and tour it baffles me how panicked everyone is about his involvement. But, in your haste to set me straight about what you perceive as my intolerance of Joe's detractors (Which is ironic, given the tone of your response) you seem to have missed the point of my post. You know, the three paragraphs above my comments about Joe Thomas. Since you didn't "get it" I'll restate:  Mainly, I disagree with the assumption that, if Joe (or Scott, or Darian, or any other producer) is involved, Brian isn't doing much and is just putting his name on someone else's project.  I believe Brian is delegating because it's a healthier way to work than his 60's MO.  No one has to like Joe's production style. But, to assume that an executive producer credit means that Brian's just adding his name to Joe's work is insulting to Brian.

Get it?

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Cabinessenceking
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« Reply #485 on: September 05, 2013, 08:57:53 AM »

J.Thomas is producing? Well that's one purchase I'll have a hard time to make. J.Thomas has done nothing but prove he is incapable of handling the task fo being a producer imo.
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Pablo.
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« Reply #486 on: September 05, 2013, 09:02:09 AM »

I don't think anybody here is accusing Brian of stealing production credit or coasting while Thomas does all the hard work. For me, TWGMTR's credits should have read "Produced by Brian Wilson and Joe Thomas" That's all.

The reason why many of us dislike JT's style: the production of Imagination (TWGMTR is okay, compared to that one) and -I'm quoting Darian- his idea to arrange "Caroline No" in "a kind of soft-Sade style".
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:03:40 AM by Pablo. » Logged
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« Reply #487 on: September 05, 2013, 09:15:28 AM »

I think there's a big difference between Imagination and TWGMTR, though. I think Brian's sole producer credit is more appropriate to the latter, simply because the backing track arrangements and productions sound much more like Brian, and much less like the AC vibe of Imagination. As for notating precise arrangements and twiddling knobs, IMO that's pretty immaterial to a producer credit -- at least for someone like Brian. Spector didn't do arranging or engineering, for example, and he's Brian's greatest idol.

Brian has more or less produced in the same way throughout his career -- he's made demos, he's worked out collaborative arrangements with whatever musicians he's recording with, he does vocal arrangements (the sole step that he pretty much has always done on his own, but even then he's open to suggestions), and he finally uses his engineers as co-producers in all but name. Obviously, when he was younger, the proportions of these things were different -- perhaps the roles of his collaborators were less. But the general process was quite similar. Think of it this way -- isn't Steve Desper as important to the sound of Sunflower as any of the guys? Yet no one gave him a production credit. Maybe they should have, but contributions like his -- at least in BB and BW land -- tend to be labeled as engineering or mixing or some other fine-print jargon.
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Pablo.
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« Reply #488 on: September 05, 2013, 09:23:14 AM »

You have a point there. Thank God, there's a lot more Brian on TWGMTR than on Imagination. But  Thomas had a say in track selection and pacing. I don't think Desper, Mankey or Britz were involved in that area.
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Cyncie
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« Reply #489 on: September 05, 2013, 09:23:44 AM »

I don't think anybody here is accusing Brian of stealing production credit or coasting while Thomas does all the hard work. For me, TWGMTR's credits should have read "Produced by Brian Wilson and Joe Thomas" That's all.

The reason why many of us dislike JT's style: the production of Imagination (TWGMTR is okay, compared to that one) and -I'm quoting Darian- his idea to arrange "Caroline No" in "a kind of soft-Sade style".

I'm not picking on you, Pablo.

It's strange. Every time a new Brian product is announced, we start questioning how much Brian is actually contributing. Fans either have Brian deified as some kind of untouchable genius or they have him a sniveling, puppet vege-table. I'm just suggesting that the truth might be somewhere in between. He might be a very talented guy who has learned to allow other people to help him now.  One of those people happens to be Joe Thomas.

As for Thomas, I don't own "Imagination" and have only listened to it a few times. Yes, it's definitely adult MOR, and a little too schmaltzy. But, TWGMTR was, overall, a nice album, and the last 4 cuts were incredible, so it sounds like their working relationship is adapting and changing. The tour was flat awesome. The Live Album had auto tune issues, but we don't really know why they felt that was necessary. So, he's done some good things and some not so good things. We won't know anything about this project until it drops, so I'm not going to panic about his presence on it.
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Iron Horse-Apples
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« Reply #490 on: September 05, 2013, 09:32:31 AM »


I really don't get all the Joe hate. I like TWGMTR, so I have no beef with Joe Thomas there. I agree that the autotune on the live CD could have been dialed back, but I still enjoy listening to it in my car CD player.  And, I keep in mind that without Joe Thomas' production company's backing and massive support system, the absolutely awesome 50th reunion would have never happened. That alone makes him OK in my book.


I don't hate him. I hate his production style. I find Imagination unlistenable. I find TWGMTR unlistenable. I find the 50th Live Concert unlistenable. Do you get that?

I'm glad you don't mind his production. I'm happy for you,  but try to accept that some people don't, "then we'll get, y'know, board peace"

I do "get that."  I accept it. That's why I said this:

Quote
We can like or not. That's all down to taste

My question about the "Joe hate" was a sincere one. TWGMTR and the tour seemed to be well received by fans and critics. Yes, the live album is a bit of a miss, but given the success of the other album and tour it baffles me how panicked everyone is about his involvement. But, in your haste to set me straight about what you perceive as my intolerance of Joe's detractors (Which is ironic, given the tone of your response) you seem to have missed the point of my post. You know, the three paragraphs above my comments about Joe Thomas. Since you didn't "get it" I'll restate:  Mainly, I disagree with the assumption that, if Joe (or Scott, or Darian, or any other producer) is involved, Brian isn't doing much and is just putting his name on someone else's project.  I believe Brian is delegating because it's a healthier way to work than his 60's MO.  No one has to like Joe's production style. But, to assume that an executive producer credit means that Brian's just adding his name to Joe's work is insulting to Brian.

Get it?



But I don't think anyone was saying the stuff you mention. That's why I disregarded it.

No one's accused Brian of coasting. You imagined that's what people were saying because it suited the point you wanted to make.

Classic strawman.

People are in fact lamenting the fact we have another album of autotuned vocals and middle of the road arrangements to look forward to.

And the "do you get that" comment was a reaction to your "I don't get the Joe Hate" (which to me translates as "I don't get the fact other people don't agree with me") I was quite polite afterwards and made light of it with the line that followed.

I'm happy to drop this now before it escalates. I really can't be bothered to argue. Maybe we both misunderstood each other, eh?
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Sam_BFC
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« Reply #491 on: September 05, 2013, 10:35:28 AM »

He does a decent job on Brian vocally, but I'd argue the vocals on the Gershwin and Disney records are a sizeable amount better than those of TWGMTR.

Totally disagree. I much prefer Brian's TWGMTR vocals to the vocals on either of the two other albums.


Fair do's.

With recent Brian vocals, I just think the vocals on stuff like 'Someone to Watch Over Me' and 'Baby Mine' are pretty hard to top.  I think those leads are really special and carry the songs.  Not sure how much of if it is a performance thing and how much a mixing/production thing.

He possibly leans on Jeff a little more for TWGMTR (Jeff doubles with Brian on title track verse leads?), but hey I still like the TWGMTR vocals.
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« Reply #492 on: September 05, 2013, 10:39:42 AM »

I think it would've helped if they had re-recorded some stuff like BW's intro vocals for "Isn't It Time".
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« Reply #493 on: September 05, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »

I don't hate him. I hate his production style. I find Imagination unlistenable. I find TWGMTR unlistenable. I find the 50th Live Concert unlistenable. Do you get that?

I'm glad you don't mind his production. I'm happy for you,  but try to accept that some people don't, "then we'll get, y'know, board peace"

I think we get it Stephen.

However, Imagination is the album that turned me into a Brian Wilson fan (and later a BB fan), so go figure!   Cool Guy
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Iron Horse-Apples
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« Reply #494 on: September 05, 2013, 11:24:07 AM »

I don't hate him. I hate his production style. I find Imagination unlistenable. I find TWGMTR unlistenable. I find the 50th Live Concert unlistenable. Do you get that?

I'm glad you don't mind his production. I'm happy for you,  but try to accept that some people don't, "then we'll get, y'know, board peace"

I think we get it Stephen.

However, Imagination is the album that turned me into a Brian Wilson fan (and later a BB fan), so go figure!   Cool Guy

Go figure what? That you have different tastes to me. That was my whole point!

And what do you mean by "I think we get it Stephen". Don't condescend me. Yes its a subject I feel strongly about, but I only post about it when it's pertinent, like in a thread about Brian's new album which is, lets not pretend otherwise, being produced yet again by Joe bloody Thomas. So don't come on like I mention it all the time.

Or would you rather I stopped being negative?

OK. I luuuuurve autotuned voices, boring arrangements and horrible 80's processed tom hits. No complaints here officer.  Smiley
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« Reply #495 on: September 05, 2013, 11:50:54 AM »

Go figure what? That you have different tastes to me. That was my whole point!

And what do you mean by "I think we get it Stephen". Don't condescend me. Yes its a subject I feel strongly about, but I only post about it when it's pertinent, like in a thread about Brian's new album which is, lets not pretend otherwise, being produced yet again by Joe bloody Thomas. So don't come on like I mention it all the time.

Or would you rather I stopped being negative?

OK. I luuuuurve autotuned voices, boring arrangements and horrible 80's processed tom hits. No complaints here officer.  Smiley

Hey Stephen, I certainly meant no condescension to you in my note.  Just "go figure": one person loves the album, one hates it.  Different smokes for different folks, is all, like you said.

And (belaboring the point now) Imagination really turned me on to Brian.
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Iron Horse-Apples
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« Reply #496 on: September 05, 2013, 11:54:33 AM »

OK, I'm really sorry heysaboda. Bit of an over reaction. I've not had a good day. I'm logging off before I offend everyone  LOL
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Cyncie
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« Reply #497 on: September 05, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »


I really don't get all the Joe hate. I like TWGMTR, so I have no beef with Joe Thomas there. I agree that the autotune on the live CD could have been dialed back, but I still enjoy listening to it in my car CD player.  And, I keep in mind that without Joe Thomas' production company's backing and massive support system, the absolutely awesome 50th reunion would have never happened. That alone makes him OK in my book.


I don't hate him. I hate his production style. I find Imagination unlistenable. I find TWGMTR unlistenable. I find the 50th Live Concert unlistenable. Do you get that?

I'm glad you don't mind his production. I'm happy for you,  but try to accept that some people don't, "then we'll get, y'know, board peace"

I do "get that."  I accept it. That's why I said this:

Quote
We can like or not. That's all down to taste

My question about the "Joe hate" was a sincere one. TWGMTR and the tour seemed to be well received by fans and critics. Yes, the live album is a bit of a miss, but given the success of the other album and tour it baffles me how panicked everyone is about his involvement. But, in your haste to set me straight about what you perceive as my intolerance of Joe's detractors (Which is ironic, given the tone of your response) you seem to have missed the point of my post. You know, the three paragraphs above my comments about Joe Thomas. Since you didn't "get it" I'll restate:  Mainly, I disagree with the assumption that, if Joe (or Scott, or Darian, or any other producer) is involved, Brian isn't doing much and is just putting his name on someone else's project.  I believe Brian is delegating because it's a healthier way to work than his 60's MO.  No one has to like Joe's production style. But, to assume that an executive producer credit means that Brian's just adding his name to Joe's work is insulting to Brian.

Get it?



But I don't think anyone was saying the stuff you mention. That's why I disregarded it.

No one's accused Brian of coasting. You imagined that's what people were saying because it suited the point you wanted to make.

Classic strawman.

People are in fact lamenting the fact we have another album of autotuned vocals and middle of the road arrangements to look forward to.

And the "do you get that" comment was a reaction to your "I don't get the Joe Hate" (which to me translates as "I don't get the fact other people don't agree with me") I was quite polite afterwards and made light of it with the line that followed.

I'm happy to drop this now before it escalates. I really can't be bothered to argue. Maybe we both misunderstood each other, eh?

There have been statements on this board about Brian being less than "really" involved in his latest works. I may have erroneously assumed this discussion was headed in that direction, and responded accordingly. Anyway. No big deal. I'm not engaged in a battle one way or the other. Everyone's entitled to state their opinion.

"I don't get that" means "I don't understand that." Nothing more. The extreme degree of dislike is puzzling to me, since, to me TWGMTR was a good album that was fairly well received. You assumed my statement was meant to push people into agreeing with me, but I stated beforehand that everyone's taste is different.  It was statement of my own opinion and was also a general statement. Your comment, however, was personal in tone.

At any rate, I'm finished with this. Life is too short to waste energy in internet spats. In the end, we all enjoy what we enjoy.  Music is, by it's very nature, subjective. One person's crap is another person's joy.

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« Reply #498 on: September 05, 2013, 12:18:10 PM »

As Brian's Facebook page currently shows Jeff Beck working in London on the album, is there any info on exactly who is involved there?

Sorry if this has been mentioned on the previous pages...
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« Reply #499 on: September 05, 2013, 12:27:59 PM »

I don't understand how a fan can dismiss TWGMTR (the whole thing) as "unlistenable."
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