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Author Topic: VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"  (Read 85934 times)
VanDykeParksAndRec
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« Reply #425 on: April 07, 2014, 08:45:02 AM »

I always thought it was Culminated Ruins Domino.
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« Reply #426 on: April 07, 2014, 08:57:08 AM »

I always thought it was Culminated Ruins Domino.

It's not, I spelled it out with as much detail as I could in that last post trying not to plagiarize or repeat what others have written and said. If the point that it was Cabinessence is still in question, that's up to you to work out, I don't know what more I can add to the record at this point.  Smiley
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« Reply #427 on: April 07, 2014, 09:05:30 AM »

Which witness said it was a CE related session? Isn't that just a fan presumption? It could have been any session with Mike in attendance as far as I know.

Van Dyke Parks for one.

Ask, too, Peter Carlin who used to post here where he got the date of December 6, 1966 as the date when this actually played out. They may or may not be similar to where I've heard it.

And C-man's session research does indeed have a"Grand Coulee" vocal session at Columbia happening in Studio A, December 6, 1966.

And that date lines up with the other happenings of December 1966, including Van Dyke simply not being around as much if he was around at all even during a lot of the CBS filming sessions.

Parks, Carlin, C-man...start there and see if the dates and information lines up. If I need to spell it out any more clear than I already did, I'll need more time to figure out how.

Hopefully messrs. Carlin and C-man can shed a more authoritative light on this than it seems I've been able to do, based on the first two follow-ups.  Smiley
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« Reply #428 on: April 07, 2014, 09:18:59 AM »

I'm not arguing that there weren't early CE sessions, I arguing that the incident had to be at a CE related session. Carlin wasn't there so I wonder what is his witness. Parks doesn't say it was a Grand Coulee/CE/WRTIH session that I remember, just that he was called to "a session" and Mike and Brian were there? I do not remember any witness specifying the session was for a specific song, what am I forgetting?
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« Reply #429 on: April 07, 2014, 09:30:19 AM »

I'm not arguing that there weren't early CE sessions, I arguing that the incident had to be at a CE related session. Carlin wasn't there so I wonder what is his witness. Parks doesn't say it was a Grand Coulee/CE/WRTIH session that I remember, just that he was called to "a session" and Mike and Brian were there? I do not remember any witness specifying the session was for a specific song, what am I forgetting?

You're forgetting someone specifying it was the "uncover" lyric that was up for elaboration, according to some guy who was there at the time. His name escapes me... no, wait... it was... something like... Leave. That's it, Mark Leave. He said that.
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« Reply #430 on: April 07, 2014, 10:08:09 AM »

I'm not arguing that there weren't early CE sessions, I arguing that the incident had to be at a CE related session. Carlin wasn't there so I wonder what is his witness. Parks doesn't say it was a Grand Coulee/CE/WRTIH session that I remember, just that he was called to "a session" and Mike and Brian were there? I do not remember any witness specifying the session was for a specific song, what am I forgetting?

You're forgetting someone specifying it was the "uncover" lyric that was up for elaboration, according to some guy who was there at the time. His name escapes me... no, wait... it was... something like... Leave. That's it, Mark Leave. He said that.

I understand it was that song's lyric that was questioned but I'm saying isn't it just an assumption that it was a CE session at which that CE lyric was questioned?

I know the argument is "common sense" and I've already a recognized that is an assumption that makes sense. That used to be my assumption too but every witness about when it happened does not point to an early CE session as the session at which the incident happened. To me all the witness that can date the incident points to a late session, a late February or early March session with Mike in attendance. Could be I'm forgetting something specific.
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« Reply #431 on: April 07, 2014, 10:08:42 AM »

We use the term "Occam's Razor" often, the idea that the simplest answer is the correct one. Maybe this falls into a new term I'll call "Occam's Aftershave"... Grin

If the issue is turning into Carlin's source of info, Carlin being one of possibly others who have published or at least mentioned this incident, why not just ask Carlin where he got it? If he's willing to answer the question, that solves it.

We can review and dissect and challenge every point about this kind of historical reporting, but at a basic level these descriptions and reports and even eyewitness accounts don't come out of thin air, darts are not thrown randomly at a calendar and assumed to be accurate based on randomness, and if sources have pegged a certain date or time or place which have been reported, those researchers reporting those details are basing it on something they have been told, especially if one of the parties directly involved is quoted in the same reporting.
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« Reply #432 on: April 07, 2014, 10:25:59 AM »

I understand it was that song's lyric that was questioned but I'm saying isn't it just an assumption that it was a CE session at which that CE lyric was questioned?

I know the argument is "common sense" and I've already a recognized that is an assumption that makes sense. That used to be my assumption too but every witness about when it happened does not point to an early CE session as the session at which the incident happened. To me all the witness that can date the incident points to a late session, a late February or early March session with Mike in attendance. Could be I'm forgetting something specific.

I'll come back strongly with the "Just ask Carlin himself" solution as the simplest one, but let's divert slightly and get into the logic behind assumptions:

The story, as told by Van Dyke for one, is that he gets a call from Brian to come to the studio under the aegis of helping Mike with some lyrics at a session. I've described this on the last page in detail, so no rehashing beyond mentioning that Van Dyke was walking into a confrontational situation where Mike wanted to know what the words he was going to sing actually meant. Van Dyke himself says this.

Do we doubt Van Dyke or Mike that it was the "crow cries" line in question? They have both specifically mentioned this.

Go to c-man's impeccable research on the session details, down to the exact booking times.

Were there any records of Cabinessence group vocal sessions after December 1966, until they revisited the song in 1968? The last group sessions were early/mid December 66, the last one was Brian adding something the final week of December 66, and as far as the paper trail goes, that was it for Cabinessence.

Unless I'm missing something that would clarify what Cam is trying to suggest, there was nothing done after December 1966 that could lead to Mike demanding a translation of the lyrics he was being asked to sing, if the last time the group had a recorded, documented vocal session for Cabinessence was in December 1966, until 1968 at least.
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« Reply #433 on: April 07, 2014, 10:35:09 AM »

I understand it was that song's lyric that was questioned but I'm saying isn't it just an assumption that it was a CE session at which that CE lyric was questioned?

I know the argument is "common sense" and I've already a recognized that is an assumption that makes sense. That used to be my assumption too but every witness about when it happened does not point to an early CE session as the session at which the incident happened. To me all the witness that can date the incident points to a late session, a late February or early March session with Mike in attendance. Could be I'm forgetting something specific.

I'll come back strongly with the "Just ask Carlin himself" solution as the simplest one, but let's divert slightly and get into the logic behind assumptions:

The story, as told by Van Dyke for one, is that he gets a call from Brian to come to the studio under the aegis of helping Mike with some lyrics at a session. I've described this on the last page in detail, so no rehashing beyond mentioning that Van Dyke was walking into a confrontational situation where Mike wanted to know what the words he was going to sing actually meant. Van Dyke himself says this.

Do we doubt Van Dyke or Mike that it was the "crow cries" line in question? They have both specifically mentioned this.

Go to c-man's impeccable research on the session details, down to the exact booking times.

Were there any records of Cabinessence group vocal sessions after December 1966, until they revisited the song in 1968? The last group sessions were early/mid December 66, the last one was Brian adding something the final week of December 66, and as far as the paper trail goes, that was it for Cabinessence.

Unless I'm missing something that would clarify what Cam is trying to suggest, there was nothing done after December 1966 that could lead to Mike demanding a translation of the lyrics he was being asked to sing, if the last time the group had a recorded, documented vocal session for Cabinessence was in December 1966, until 1968 at least.

Right but then there is nothing to peg it happening at an actual CE session but there is plenty from participants [not authors] that put it at a date long after the CE sessions so I'm suggesting we might let go of the assumption in favor of the witness.

RE. the last part: we don't know why Mike wanted a translation, just that he did. For the late date, a guess would be he had sung it, thought it was artistic or whatever he said he appreciated about it, it was going to be on the album, but wasn't sure he got it and would like to know what it meant.
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« Reply #434 on: April 07, 2014, 10:40:59 AM »

We use the term "Occam's Razor" often, the idea that the simplest answer is the correct one. Maybe this falls into a new term I'll call "Occam's Aftershave"... Grin

If the issue is turning into Carlin's source of info, Carlin being one of possibly others who have published or at least mentioned this incident, why not just ask Carlin where he got it? If he's willing to answer the question, that solves it.

We can review and dissect and challenge every point about this kind of historical reporting, but at a basic level these descriptions and reports and even eyewitness accounts don't come out of thin air, darts are not thrown randomly at a calendar and assumed to be accurate based on randomness, and if sources have pegged a certain date or time or place which have been reported, those researchers reporting those details are basing it on something they have been told, especially if one of the parties directly involved is quoted in the same reporting.

Is Peter still on the board?
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« Reply #435 on: April 07, 2014, 10:51:42 AM »

Right but then there is nothing to peg it happening at an actual CE session but there is plenty from participants [not authors] that put it at a date long after the CE sessions so I'm suggesting we might let go of the assumption in favor of the witness.

Who are those participants?
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« Reply #436 on: April 07, 2014, 10:53:12 AM »

Right but then there is nothing to peg it happening at an actual CE session but there is plenty from participants [not authors] that put it at a date long after the CE sessions so I'm suggesting we might let go of the assumption in favor of the witness.

Who are those participants?

VDP, Anderle, Vosse, and Siegel.
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« Reply #437 on: April 07, 2014, 11:36:34 AM »

Right but then there is nothing to peg it happening at an actual CE session but there is plenty from participants [not authors] that put it at a date long after the CE sessions so I'm suggesting we might let go of the assumption in favor of the witness.

Who are those participants?

VDP, Anderle, Vosse, and Siegel.

You're suggesting these men put the date of Mike challenging the "crow cries" lyrics as long after the Cabinessence sessions in December 1966? I've tried to think where this may have been said or written, wracked my brain over it, and I cannot remember hearing or seeing these quotes anywhere, surely not specific to this incident. Maybe you're talking about something else entirely, I can't figure it out.

And "long after" the Cabinessence sessions (December 1966), wasn't Siegel pretty much out of the picture anyway, effectively sealed off when Brian posted a guard and had Vosse explain to Jules that he thought his girl was giving off bad vibes? Siegel's article says Vosse left a few months after that scene, Vosse says he left in "early spring", it doesn't add up.

Again, ask Carlin. I'm really at a loss trying to add it all up after seeing a suggestion that Van Dyke is contradicting his own memories, contradicting the most logical (and reported) session documents by months, and bringing in Jules as an authority when he was gone before this Feb/March thing was supposed to have happened based on his own timeline, and Vosse's too.

Confused.
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« Reply #438 on: April 07, 2014, 12:24:40 PM »

I guess you haven't been reading my case or you can't understand  the Camlish language.  Smiley

 It is based around VDP's statement that he ended his relationship soon after the event and others give witness about when that relationship was in effect or ended with one giving the month. So far the presumption about it having to be an actual CE session date trumps the witness testimony about when that relationship was in effect and ended. Discount Siegel if you don't find him to be credible or applicable.
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« Reply #439 on: April 07, 2014, 01:25:14 PM »

I'm confused too. Or forgetful.  Can you put up the quote where VDP , or anyone actually around at the time, says it was a CE session he was called to or where he gives a time cue for the event.

Are you confused about Anderle's witness about VDP and Brian's songwriting relationship and the date of around February as the date VDP ended that relationship? Is Vosse's statement that VDP was very much involved during the 2 part H&V? Those dates are January through early March with VDP in the studio at those specific sessions with Brian twice at least in February. Those seem pretty unambiguous to me and from not only people involved and on the scene but also friends of VDP's and working with Brian.
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« Reply #440 on: April 07, 2014, 01:58:54 PM »

Here's my take: at the first "Cabinessence" vocal session, Mike sees the lyric for the first time and asks WTF it all means. Think about it - why would Mike - or anyone - suddenly start questioning the lyric to a different song that they'd already sung weeks previously ? Seriously, in the middle of, say, an "H&V" session, would you ask, out of the blue "Brian - what does "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" mean ?". And if you did, I'm betting the answer would be along the lines of "you've sung it already, it's nothing to do with what we're doing now, so STFU". I would.
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« Reply #441 on: April 07, 2014, 02:03:07 PM »

Here's my take: at the first "Cabinessence" vocal session, Mike sees the lyric for the first time and asks WTF it all means. Think about it - why would Mike - or anyone - suddenly start questioning the lyric to a different song that they'd already sung weeks previously ? Seriously, in the middle of, say, an "H&V" session, would you ask, out of the blue "Brian - what does "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" mean ?". And if you did, I'm betting the answer would be along the lines of "you've sung it already, it's nothing to do with what we're doing now, so STFU". I would.

Sounds reasonable to me.

But the thing is, Cam doesn't wanna admit it, because although people have justifiably learned that it was not all Mike's fault that SMiLE didn't happen, he still wants to go further with it then that. For some obsessive reason. I don't know why.
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« Reply #442 on: April 07, 2014, 02:04:47 PM »

I'm confused too. Or forgetful.  Can you put up the quote where VDP , or anyone actually around at the time, says it was a CE session he was called to or where he gives a time cue for the event.

Are you confused about Anderle's witness about VDP and Brian's songwriting relationship and the date of around February as the date VDP ended that relationship? Is Vosse's statement that VDP was very much involved during the 2 part H&V? Those dates are January through early March with VDP in the studio at those specific sessions with Brian twice at least in February. Those seem pretty unambiguous to me and from not only people involved and on the scene but also friends of VDP's and working with Brian.

You know that Van Dyke left twice, right? The first time because of the lyric thing with Mike and the second time because of his solo album.
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« Reply #443 on: April 07, 2014, 02:29:37 PM »

From Goodbye Surfin', Hello God !:

"As 1967 opened it seemed as though Brian and the Beach Boys were assured of a new world of success; yet something was going wrong. As the corporate activity reached a peak of intensity, Brian was becoming less and less productive and more and more erratic. Smile, which was to have been released for the Christmas season, remained unfinished. "Heroes and Villains," which was virtually complete, remained in the can, as Brian kept working out new little pieces and then scrapping them.

Van Dyke Parks had left and come back and would leave again, tired of being constantly dominated by Brian."

So according to Siegel, VDP had left and returned once in 1966
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« Reply #444 on: April 07, 2014, 02:52:21 PM »

Wasn't the mL/Vdp clash recorded on film by the Inside Pop camera team? I though that was the assumption based on the translation of the accompanying notes? Film lost so far, of course…
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« Reply #445 on: April 07, 2014, 02:57:37 PM »

Wasn't the mL/Vdp clash recorded on film by the Inside Pop camera team? I though that was the assumption based on the translation of the accompanying notes? Film lost so far, of course…

Total (baseless) speculation: maybe the film remains intentionally "lost" because certain parties involved in the clash might have an incentive for that footage (if it has an ugly clash caught on tape) from not ever being seen? In particular, the one party who has been vilified for this infamous clash for 47 years would seem to have the most incentive for this footage to never see the light of day, right?  If Mike somehow had the ability/opportunity to have this footage destroyed, he'd probably do just that, no?

This unlikely (yet remotely possible) conspiracy theory seems to be grounded in as much truth as some of the ideas/assumptions I've read in the last couple pages of this thread.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 04:16:27 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #446 on: April 07, 2014, 03:19:26 PM »

We use the term "Occam's Razor" often, the idea that the simplest answer is the correct one. Maybe this falls into a new term I'll call "Occam's Aftershave"... Grin

If the issue is turning into Carlin's source of info, Carlin being one of possibly others who have published or at least mentioned this incident, why not just ask Carlin where he got it? If he's willing to answer the question, that solves it.

We can review and dissect and challenge every point about this kind of historical reporting, but at a basic level these descriptions and reports and even eyewitness accounts don't come out of thin air, darts are not thrown randomly at a calendar and assumed to be accurate based on randomness, and if sources have pegged a certain date or time or place which have been reported, those researchers reporting those details are basing it on something they have been told, especially if one of the parties directly involved is quoted in the same reporting.
[/color]


This actually means very very little at the end of the day when you consider we only hear this story from these sources .... Individuals who had many reasons to dislike Mike at the time ...... Carlin too ..... He's pretty rough on Mike in his book..... Did Mike somehow have no right to ask what some lyrics meant and to not be happy with the answer? .... Ummm, I dunno. Maybe the next time you're in the studio as part of a legendary band putting down your vocals on material that will likely last forever and ever and you have a problem with some words whom yourself or no one else in the band wrote ..... let's see how humble and agreeable you are.... If you want to think he was a bastard for doing so, fair enough, but you need to admit that he had that right (more like a responsibility) .... and rights do get utilized from time to time in life...... All the "War And Peace" length descriptions of this "event" can't change that basic fact.

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« Reply #447 on: April 07, 2014, 04:43:29 PM »

We use the term "Occam's Razor" often, the idea that the simplest answer is the correct one. Maybe this falls into a new term I'll call "Occam's Aftershave"... Grin

If the issue is turning into Carlin's source of info, Carlin being one of possibly others who have published or at least mentioned this incident, why not just ask Carlin where he got it? If he's willing to answer the question, that solves it.

We can review and dissect and challenge every point about this kind of historical reporting, but at a basic level these descriptions and reports and even eyewitness accounts don't come out of thin air, darts are not thrown randomly at a calendar and assumed to be accurate based on randomness, and if sources have pegged a certain date or time or place which have been reported, those researchers reporting those details are basing it on something they have been told, especially if one of the parties directly involved is quoted in the same reporting.
[/color]


This actually means very very little at the end of the day when you consider we only hear this story from these sources .... Individuals who had many reasons to dislike Mike at the time ...... Carlin too ..... He's pretty rough on Mike in his book..... Did Mike somehow have no right to ask what some lyrics meant and to not be happy with the answer? .... Ummm, I dunno. Maybe the next time you're in the studio as part of a legendary band putting down your vocals on material that will likely last forever and ever and you have a problem with some words whom yourself or no one else in the band wrote ..... let's see how humble and agreeable you are.... If you want to think he was a bastard for doing so, fair enough, but you need to admit that he had that right (more like a responsibility) .... and rights do get utilized from time to time in life...... All the "War And Peace" length descriptions of this "event" can't change that basic fact.



The thing is, Pinder: It’s not just the concept that Mike simply asked what the lyrics meant… I think it’s safe to say that his probable attitude and approach had to be a major factor in why it rubbed VDP so very much the wrong way. It just doesn’t make sense that it was an isolated incident of questioning and/or hostility, and it also doesn’t make much sense that Mike would have asked the question in a respectful, mindful, and mature way. I feel safe in assuming that there was a major smugness about the question, which really cut deep.

In my observations, you seem to imply the incident as simply an isolated matter that any band member would fully be in the “right” to do. So, maybe a band member has a “right” to ask a question about a lyric, but IMO, I don’t think they exactly have the “right” to ask that question in a (probable) disrespectful way.  Nonverbal communication and tone are a BIG, BIG deal to some people, particularly if a pattern of such has been accumulating.

I’m trying to imagine a scenario where, for example, Carl (not Mike) asked VDP what the Cabinessence lyric meant, and for that single incident to have such disheartening effect on VDP that would be the tipping point for VDP to get made and take a hike –and you know what? I can’t imagine that. Because from everything we know about Carl’s personality, if he did have a question about a lyric, in all likelihood he’d have asked VDP in a very respectful way. He’d likely have gone out of his way to show respect when asking the question, and there also would most likely not have been a drop of resentment in Carl’s motivations. Underlying resentment shows on peoples’ faces and tone, and if (and I stress “if” because it’s just my educated guess) those feelings were bubbling underneath the surface of Mike’s question(s), it shouldn’t be downplayed or considered negligible to the equation.

Just IMHO.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 04:45:54 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #448 on: April 07, 2014, 04:54:43 PM »


The thing is, Pinder: It’s not just the concept that Mike simply asked what the lyrics meant… I think it’s safe to say that his probable attitude and approach had to be a major factor in why it rubbed VDP so very much the wrong way. It just doesn’t make sense that it was an isolated incident of questioning and/or hostility, and it also doesn’t make much sense that Mike would have asked the question in a respectful, mindful, and mature way. I feel safe in assuming that there was a major smugness about the question, which really cut deep.

In my observations, you seem to imply the incident as simply an isolated matter that any band member would fully be in the “right” to do. So, maybe a band member has a “right” to ask a question about a lyric, but IMO, I don’t think they exactly have the “right” to ask that question in a (probable) disrespectful way.  Nonverbal communication and tone are a BIG, BIG deal to some people, particularly if a pattern of such has been accumulating.

I’m trying to imagine a scenario where, for example, Carl asked VDP what a lyric meant, and for that single incident to have such disheartening effect on VDP that would be the tipping point for VDP to get made and take a hike –and you know what? I can’t imagine that. Because from everything we know about Carl’s personality, if he did have a question about a lyric, in all likelihood he’d have asked VDP in a very respectful way. He’d likely have gone out of his way to show respect when asking the question, and there also would most likely not have been a drop of resentment in Carl’s motivations. Underlying resentment shows on peoples’ faces and tone, and if (and I stress “if” because it’s just my educated guess) those feelings were bubbling underneath the surface of Mike’s question(s), it shouldn’t be downplayed or considered negligible to the equation.

Just IMHO.


Sure Mike will have been more argumentative than Carl would have been. But arguing is perfectly normal behaviour. I was reminded of this debate when I saw an article on the news sites about business today:

`In most workplaces, people squabble over creative differences, project ownership, and budgets – they butt heads over all manner of political issues. Generally speaking, the more people there are, the more issues they have to fuss over. It’s just a fact of life – and work. But the difference between conflict in a dysfunctional company and in a high-trust organization is how people deal with it.`

That sums up things pretty well. In every group there will be arguments but some of them can deal with it better than others. Because of Brian`s mental health problems he couldn`t deal with it.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #449 on: April 07, 2014, 05:03:33 PM »

And, of course, Van Dyke's answer - "I don't know" - must've been a really satisfying response.
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