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VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"
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Topic: VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery" (Read 87213 times)
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #275 on:
April 01, 2014, 11:25:19 PM »
Quote from: The Legendary AGD on April 01, 2014, 10:49:13 PM
Everyone's arguing and theorising from the premise that VDP was in some way excluded, made to feel unwelcome or ignored concerning the
Smile
box, and maybe he was. But suppose he wasn't ?
I'm not pretending to know what happened, but leaving him out is a pretty big omission, and as others have said, he comes off a tad bitter about the whole thing so until I hear something definite, all I can do is speculate...
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
?
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Posts: 534
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #276 on:
April 02, 2014, 02:07:50 AM »
Quote from: The Legendary AGD on April 01, 2014, 10:55:31 PM
Quote from: Mujan on April 01, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
We can't know what happened, but
something about the compiling of this set definitely ruffled VDP's feathers
, and that's a damn shame because this should've been his time to shine as well as Brian.
Ok, how about this: since we can agree that
something
happened that pissed VDP off, was it something that directly pertained to him or something more general that he still found offensive?
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Cam Mott
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Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #277 on:
April 02, 2014, 03:05:35 AM »
Quote from: Mujan on April 01, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.
Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up. Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.
«
Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 03:08:33 AM by Cam Mott
»
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"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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Offline
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SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #278 on:
April 02, 2014, 06:44:51 AM »
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 03:05:35 AM
Quote from: Mujan on April 01, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.
Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up. Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.
Same goes for the "charges" against Mike. Vosse, Brian and Van confirm it. It was wrong to solely blame Mike but it's wrong now to blame VDP as well. Both happened, both were contributing factors. There were a dozen others as well.
«
Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 06:45:42 AM by Mujan
»
Logged
Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
Rich Panteluk
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Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #279 on:
April 02, 2014, 07:00:13 AM »
Just some speculation on my part, but I believe Van Dyke had to go to bat in a very aggressive way to help his friend Frank Holmes get his due with respect to the using and the remuneration of the Smile artwork. Perhaps in the process his working relationship with Brian and co took a hit and he walked of his own volition. Agd, care to tell me if I am getting warmer or colder? :-)
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?
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Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #280 on:
April 02, 2014, 07:12:14 AM »
I was thinking along the same lines Rich...
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Cam Mott
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Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #281 on:
April 02, 2014, 07:15:11 AM »
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 06:44:51 AM
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 03:05:35 AM
Quote from: Mujan on April 01, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.
Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up. Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.
Same goes for the "charges" against Mike. Vosse, Brian and Van confirm it. It was wrong to solely blame Mike but it's wrong now to blame VDP as well. Both happened, both were contributing factors. There were a dozen others as well.
Right but fandom has taken the charges against Mike very seriously for decades while Mike and the Boys were sort of an outsider to the process. They didn't stop anything, they didn't want Brian to stop SMiLE. On the other hand, fandom still largely ignores the history between VDP and Brian, it is being pretty much ignored right now. In spite of all the so-called pendulum swinging, somehow a question from outside the process is still made much important then creative and personal issues between the two co-creators in the process.
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"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
Jim V.
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Online
Posts: 3040
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #282 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:21:53 AM »
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 07:15:11 AM
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 06:44:51 AM
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 03:05:35 AM
Quote from: Mujan on April 01, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.
Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up. Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.
Same goes for the "charges" against Mike. Vosse, Brian and Van confirm it. It was wrong to solely blame Mike but it's wrong now to blame VDP as well. Both happened, both were contributing factors. There were a dozen others as well.
Right but fandom has taken the charges against Mike very seriously for decades while Mike and the Boys were sort of an outsider to the process. They didn't stop anything, they didn't want Brian to stop SMiLE. On the other hand, fandom still largely ignores the history between VDP and Brian, it is being pretty much ignored right now. In spite of all the so-called pendulum swinging, somehow a question from outside the process is still made much important then creative and personal issues between the two co-creators in the process.
Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the
SMiLE
material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.
I mean, even after cancelling the project, "Heroes And Villains" was still his big priority to get out there. And finally by later in the year, he did. He also recorded another version of "Surf's Up" at the piano in later '67, which I don't think he'd be doing if he were so turned off on Van Dyke's lyrics. Shoot, even by like 1973 or so there's a story of him playing a special version of "Heroes And Villains" on the piano while an interviewer was over to talk about Spring. And he called "Surf's Up" a "masterpiece" around the
15 Big Ones
.
And you speak of "the history between Van Dyke and Brian", but the facts show that even after the
SMiLE
era was over, they were still friends. It's mentioned quite a bit that he was hanging out with people like "Van Dyke Parks and Danny Hutton" in the early to mid '70s. Theya also worked on material for Redwood (the song "Sunflower Maiden") and of course they also worked on one of The Beach Boys biggest '70s songs, "Sail On, Sailor".
I guess what I'm saying is that while the decision to can
SMiLE
ultimately rests with Brian, the other guys in the group did have a say. Peter Reum has spoken of group meetings about the album and whatnot. So to act like Mike and the guys had no say is disingenuous.
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Bicyclerider
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Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #283 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:27:29 AM »
Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.
Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics? Hogwash. Having doubts about their commerical potential? Certainly.
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #284 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:48:25 AM »
Quote from: Bicyclerider on April 02, 2014, 09:27:29 AM
Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.
Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics? Hogwash. Having doubts about their commerical potential? Certainly.
Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.
Logged
Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
Cam Mott
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Offline
Posts: 4171
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #285 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:49:25 AM »
Quote from: sweetdudejim on April 02, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the
SMiLE
material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.
I didn't say this, David Anderle and Brian said this at and near the event. So they are used as authority against the Boys et al and everything else, but they (and Siegel and Vosse) are pretty much ignored on this issue.
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"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
Cam Mott
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Posts: 4171
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #286 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:50:15 AM »
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Bicyclerider on April 02, 2014, 09:27:29 AM
Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.
Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics? Hogwash. Having doubts about their commerical potential? Certainly.
Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.
Who claimed that?
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"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1565
SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #287 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:51:46 AM »
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 09:50:15 AM
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Bicyclerider on April 02, 2014, 09:27:29 AM
Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.
Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics? Hogwash. Having doubts about their commerical potential? Certainly.
Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.
Who claimed that?
You.
Logged
Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 4171
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #288 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:55:21 AM »
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 09:51:46 AM
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 09:50:15 AM
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Bicyclerider on April 02, 2014, 09:27:29 AM
Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.
Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics? Hogwash. Having doubts about their commerical potential? Certainly.
Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.
Who claimed that?
You.
Where? First of all I never said entirely or all the time. I said just what Brian, Anderle, Siegel, and Vosse said on the subject.
Logged
"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
halblaineisgood
Guest
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #289 on:
April 02, 2014, 09:57:14 AM »
.
«
Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 09:22:33 PM by halblaineisgood
»
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1565
SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #290 on:
April 02, 2014, 10:06:08 AM »
Quote from: halblaineisgood on April 02, 2014, 09:57:14 AM
Mulan: Infinite Potential to revive old smile threads fulfilled and his favorite movie is mulan.
Yeah, how dare I discuss my favorite BB album on a forum dedicated to the BBs...
Logged
Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 2132
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #291 on:
April 02, 2014, 11:38:56 AM »
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 09:49:25 AM
Quote from: sweetdudejim on April 02, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the
SMiLE
material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.
I didn't say this, David Anderle and Brian said this at and near the event. So they are used as authority against the Boys et al and everything else, but they (and Siegel and Vosse) are pretty much ignored on this issue.
Nine of those people said Brian didn't like or disliked Van's lyrics. Recheck your quotes please. You may repost them as I'm sure you have them handy.
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Bicyclerider
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Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #292 on:
April 02, 2014, 11:39:58 AM »
That was NONE of those people, not "nine".
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Jim V.
Smiley Smile Associate
Online
Posts: 3040
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #293 on:
April 02, 2014, 11:48:00 AM »
Quote from: Cam Mott on April 02, 2014, 09:49:25 AM
Quote from: sweetdudejim on April 02, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the
SMiLE
material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.
I didn't say this, David Anderle and Brian said this at and near the event. So they are used as authority against the Boys et al and everything else, but they (and Siegel and Vosse) are pretty much ignored on this issue.
Didn't he also say that Mike and Brian weren't getting along and that Mike was giving Brian trouble?
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SMiLE Brian
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Gender:
Posts: 8450
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #294 on:
April 02, 2014, 12:08:32 PM »
Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
CenturyDeprived
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Posts: 5751
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #295 on:
April 02, 2014, 12:15:10 PM »
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on April 02, 2014, 12:08:32 PM
Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.
Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of truly legit stress.
«
Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 12:23:37 PM by CenturyDeprived
»
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1565
SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #296 on:
April 02, 2014, 12:23:11 PM »
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on April 02, 2014, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on April 02, 2014, 12:08:32 PM
Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.
Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of stress.
Do you think the psychodelic sounds skits and/or Jasper Dailey tracks served a similar purpose for SMiLE?
Logged
Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 2132
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #297 on:
April 02, 2014, 12:24:24 PM »
Brian certainly got frustrated with Dennis and Mike at times, it seems Carl and Al were mostly exempt or less confrontational than the other two.
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CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 5751
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #298 on:
April 02, 2014, 12:30:57 PM »
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 12:23:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on April 02, 2014, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on April 02, 2014, 12:08:32 PM
Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.
Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of stress.
Do you think the psychodelic sounds skits and/or Jasper Dailey tracks served a similar purpose for SMiLE?
That's an interesting thought, actually.
While I highly doubt that those "songs" were ever even remotely considered for usage on the proposed final SMiLE product... and I think that their existence can most likely be chalked up to BW's procrastination at tackling the harder SMiLE writing/assembling issues at hand, not to metnion procrastinating/avoiding personal stress with other people/circumstances (throwing together a quick random odd assemblage or two, like the skits and Dailey tracks surely helped him put off other important things)... it does, to me, seem that the procrastination itself was an attempt at a tension release valve for BW, so in that sense I could see the tracks serving a similar purpose for SMiLE, ya know?
«
Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 12:34:21 PM by CenturyDeprived
»
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
Smiley Smile Associate
Offline
Posts: 1565
SMiLE is America: Infinite Potential Never Reached
Re: VDP: \
«
Reply #299 on:
April 02, 2014, 12:50:21 PM »
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on April 02, 2014, 12:30:57 PM
Quote from: Mujan on April 02, 2014, 12:23:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on April 02, 2014, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: SMiLE Brian on April 02, 2014, 12:08:32 PM
Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.
Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of stress.
Do you think the psychodelic sounds skits and/or Jasper Dailey tracks served a similar purpose for SMiLE?
That's an interesting thought, actually.
While I highly doubt that those "songs" were ever even remotely considered for usage on the proposed final SMiLE product... and I think that their existence can most likely be chalked up to BW's procrastination at tackling the harder SMiLE writing/assembling issues at hand, not to metnion procrastinating/avoiding personal stress with other people/circumstances (throwing together a quick random odd assemblage or two, like the skits and Dailey tracks surely helped him put off other important things)... it does, to me, seem that the procrastination itself was an attempt at a tension release valve for BW, so in that sense I could see the tracks serving a similar purpose for SMiLE, ya know?
I think it's possible one or two could've made an appearance. The Vegetable fights and George Fell perhaps being the most likely, the later would make a cool hidden track after Surf's Up. As for the JD songs, I agree that was probably just procrastinating and trying to give the studio people a laugh.
Logged
Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.
Aquarian SMiLE>
HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>
HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>
HERE
& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>
HERE
[
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