VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Y'know, I really thought we were beginning to get somewhere on Mike not being routinely blamed for, well, pretty much everything that went wrong in the BB world, not to mention WW2, the slave trade and the last mass extinction, and then it all goes to sh*t again. Listen up: to the very best of my knowledge, he had nothing to do with Van Dyke not directly participating in The Smile Sessions package.

For the record, I don't blame him for WWII, just Vietnam .

In all seriousness, I appreciate you clearing that up (and bring this thread back on topic.) I'm not a blind Mike basher or anything, but I couldn't conceive of any other reason for why he might have been left off except more bad blood between the various parties.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If there is still room in the thread for some old-fashioned Smile talk, I'd like to mention some points from pages 12-13 about the "Psychodelic Sounds" and Jasper Dailey tracks.

I think, well at least in my opinion, some of the opinions being offered about what they were or what they were intended for aren't quite getting to the main points around them. One at a time, the Jasper tracks.

Brian was a prankster, a practical joker going back to his Hawthorne school days He enjoyed the put-on, and he enjoyed the setup probably as much if not more than the punchline after the joke unfolded.

Keep this in mind.

So there is a newer label in town which everyone would eventually know as A&M. In the Smile era, they were a fledgling label banking on Alpert and Moss' money, for the most part, and like any label trying to score some artists with big name potential to join the A&M roster.

And imagine, during the Smile era when the Brian hype is in full swing, being fueled by the Derek Taylor producer/genius PR campaigns, A&M gets a call to meet with Brian Wilson.

So you have Brian Wilson, reported in the music press as busy working on his latest mind-blowing creation in the studio, music that will blow people's minds...and a lot of people are eagerly waiting to see and hear what he comes up with to follow up Good Vibrations.

Then the meeting is set up, Brian and Michael Vosse are going to meet with the A&M label head Chuck Kaye, no pushover and already having a roster of incredible songwriters on his client/signing resume. Chuck Kaye would become one of the most successful music execs in rock history, so again remember he is not a pushover still wet behind the ears in 1967.

Kaye thinks he's taking a meeting to get Brian Wilson somehow on board at A&M, a real coup. Or at the least, as even Van Dyke's new bosses would attempt with him, try to get an "inside track" on what the hell kind of new music Brian has been making under a veil of secrecy since fall 1966.

At the meeting, Brian pulls out some music to play for Kaye. Damn, this is the biggest scoop...Kay may have been thinking.

They listen, and instead of breathtaking new Brian Wilson music, it turns out to be the Jasper Dailey tracks.

And Kaye is left with the feeling he doesn't want to insult a potential blockbuster of a deal like Brian would be, but the music is not at all what he was expecting.

And consider this: For a prankster, a practical joker like Brian who also had a childlike yet psychedelic sense of humor, wouldn't the punchline of the elaborate joke when Kaye hears Jasper's vocals warbling some nonsense tunes set to a Smile-type instrumental backing be worth the whole thing?

Including staging sessions for Jasper in the first place???

Consider it another one of Brian's put-ons, perhaps...and consider how much he and Vosse and whoever else laughed as they told the story of how a legitimate label big-shot like Chuck Kaye got duped into thinking Brian was carrying him a world-exclusive rather than going there to pitch a Jasper Dailey release.

And that I think is Brian's humor trip played out in the offices of A&M, or it could have been...but surely more than a diversion, I think.

Think humor, that's one of the keys to Smile in general.

I have to say, you are probably the best poster on this board. Always providing well thought out and cited answers...just saying, it's appreciated

Is that anecdote in TSS book then? I don't remember it, but I haven't thumbed through that since I first got the box (when it first came out) and I have a bad memory. Sounds like a hilarious joke on Brian's part, I just wish it didn't waste valuable studio time. I suppose it wouldn't have made a difference either way, tho...

[Autotune]

I remember an interview with Hal Blaine that appeared in BBFUN eras ago. He stated that Brian would often discuss with Carl over musical matters. This obviously was part of their work dynamic in the studio. He said that probably any other people would have gotten into fistfights-- that's how harsh the discussions would get. But they were brothers, loved each other and something like that would never happen.

Point is that Brian was used to arguing with his bandmates/family over artistic issues. That's part of any group's work dynamic and this is the environment in which some of our favorite music was made. There is no reason to think that the working environment for Smile was any different. Nor is there any reason to speculate that Brian suddenly became unable to deal with his cousin and brothers over decisions he made.

[Bicyclerider]

If there is still room in the thread for some old-fashioned Smile talk, I'd like to mention some points from pages 12-13 about the "Psychodelic Sounds" and Jasper Dailey tracks.

I think, well at least in my opinion, some of the opinions being offered about what they were or what they were intended for aren't quite getting to the main points around them. One at a time, the Jasper tracks.

Brian was a prankster, a practical joker going back to his Hawthorne school days He enjoyed the put-on, and he enjoyed the setup probably as much if not more than the punchline after the joke unfolded.

Keep this in mind.

So there is a newer label in town which everyone would eventually know as A&M. In the Smile era, they were a fledgling label banking on Alpert and Moss' money, for the most part, and like any label trying to score some artists with big name potential to join the A&M roster.

And imagine, during the Smile era when the Brian hype is in full swing, being fueled by the Derek Taylor producer/genius PR campaigns, A&M gets a call to meet with Brian Wilson.

So you have Brian Wilson, reported in the music press as busy working on his latest mind-blowing creation in the studio, music that will blow people's minds...and a lot of people are eagerly waiting to see and hear what he comes up with to follow up Good Vibrations.

Then the meeting is set up, Brian and Michael Vosse are going to meet with the A&M label head Chuck Kaye, no pushover and already having a roster of incredible songwriters on his client/signing resume. Chuck Kaye would become one of the most successful music execs in rock history, so again remember he is not a pushover still wet behind the ears in 1967.

Kaye thinks he's taking a meeting to get Brian Wilson somehow on board at A&M, a real coup. Or at the least, as even Van Dyke's new bosses would attempt with him, try to get an "inside track" on what the hell kind of new music Brian has been making under a veil of secrecy since fall 1966.

At the meeting, Brian pulls out some music to play for Kaye. Damn, this is the biggest scoop...Kay may have been thinking.

They listen, and instead of breathtaking new Brian Wilson music, it turns out to be the Jasper Dailey tracks.

And Kaye is left with the feeling he doesn't want to insult a potential blockbuster of a deal like Brian would be, but the music is not at all what he was expecting.

And consider this: For a prankster, a practical joker like Brian who also had a childlike yet psychedelic sense of humor, wouldn't the punchline of the elaborate joke when Kaye hears Jasper's vocals warbling some nonsense tunes set to a Smile-type instrumental backing be worth the whole thing?

Including staging sessions for Jasper in the first place???

Consider it another one of Brian's put-ons, perhaps...and consider how much he and Vosse and whoever else laughed as they told the story of how a legitimate label big-shot like Chuck Kaye got duped into thinking Brian was carrying him a world-exclusive rather than going there to pitch a Jasper Dailey release.

And that I think is Brian's humor trip played out in the offices of A&M, or it could have been...but surely more than a diversion, I think.

Think humor, that's one of the keys to Smile in general.

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

[Cam Mott]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

[clack]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

I've heard this supposition voiced several times on this board. Is there any evidence (interviews, etc) that Brian grew dissatisfied with VDP's lyrics?

[Cam Mott]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

I've heard this supposition voiced several times on this board. Is there any evidence (interviews, etc) that Brian grew dissatisfied with VDP's lyrics?

It's in the Anderle/Williams interview from 1967.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

And maybe it's a symptom of mental health issues exacerbated by drug abuse...?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

I've heard this supposition voiced several times on this board. Is there any evidence (interviews, etc) that Brian grew dissatisfied with VDP's lyrics?

It's in the Anderle/Williams interview from 1967.

They had artistic differences, same as Brian and Mike. There's no proof that Brian hated VDP's lyrics or that this was the main factor in shelving the project.

[Micha]

It's a known fact he's always been hostile to outside collaborators and in interviews/whatever he invariably comes off as very egotistical and lacking self awareness. We've discussed this before ad nauseum. Please stop forcing me to repeat myself everytime I say something you don't like or that's inconvenient to your 'praise mike, always' mantra. It's getting old.

"hostile to outside collaborators"?

Asking VDP what some lyrics mean makes him always hostile to outside collaborators?

See, you keep taking your view of Mike and stating it in a casual and matter of fact fashion as it it's accepted common fact ...... Now, that deserves to be called on whenever it occurs.

I think it is understandable and even a bit natural to be hostile to outside collaborators. Neither Lennon or McCartney collaborated with outsiders during the Beatles' existence, and they weren't even family. It is especially understandable if the outsider's contributions make no sense to you.

[Cam Mott]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

And maybe it's a symptom of mental health issues exacerbated by drug abuse...?

And maybe it's not, maybe it is strictly his muse and business sense.

[Cam Mott]

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Maybe it was a symptom of his waning interest in and satisfaction with the lyrics and the mood and approach of SMiLE.

I've heard this supposition voiced several times on this board. Is there any evidence (interviews, etc) that Brian grew dissatisfied with VDP's lyrics?

It's in the Anderle/Williams interview from 1967.

They had artistic differences, same as Brian and Mike. There's no proof that Brian hated VDP's lyrics or that this was the main factor in shelving the project.

You are the one who said hate, I am saying what Brian, Anderle, Vosse, and Siegel said.

[Cam Mott]

There's no proof that Brian hated VDP's lyrics or that this was the main factor in shelving the project.

Actually I think Anderle said the fact that there was trouble between them and VDP thought Brian's music wasn't sophisticated enough and Brian thought VDP's lyrics were too sophisticated  was "the main reason".

[Adult Child]

I don't think Van Dyke was being as serious as it might sound. I think Brian was just getting a bit deep into whatever was happening and it manifested itself in weird situations which have been documented, and Van Dyke didn't really know how to make of it. Most of what was happening with Brian was happening in his head, and I don't think Van Dyke was a strong enough person to handle it. "I wasn't a big enough guy" - Van Dyke.

Same with Mike. Even though he is to blame to an extent for the demise of Smile, it is Brian's fault too. Because it was in Brian's mind. That space in Brian's mind was where all this beautiful music and emotion could flow out of, but it's that same space I think that he just became vulnerable to someone like Mike Love showing any kind of negativity about the project.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If there is still room in the thread for some old-fashioned Smile talk, I'd like to mention some points from pages 12-13 about the "Psychodelic Sounds" and Jasper Dailey tracks.

I think, well at least in my opinion, some of the opinions being offered about what they were or what they were intended for aren't quite getting to the main points around them. One at a time, the Jasper tracks.

Brian was a prankster, a practical joker going back to his Hawthorne school days He enjoyed the put-on, and he enjoyed the setup probably as much if not more than the punchline after the joke unfolded.

Keep this in mind.

So there is a newer label in town which everyone would eventually know as A&M. In the Smile era, they were a fledgling label banking on Alpert and Moss' money, for the most part, and like any label trying to score some artists with big name potential to join the A&M roster.

And imagine, during the Smile era when the Brian hype is in full swing, being fueled by the Derek Taylor producer/genius PR campaigns, A&M gets a call to meet with Brian Wilson.

So you have Brian Wilson, reported in the music press as busy working on his latest mind-blowing creation in the studio, music that will blow people's minds...and a lot of people are eagerly waiting to see and hear what he comes up with to follow up Good Vibrations.

Then the meeting is set up, Brian and Michael Vosse are going to meet with the A&M label head Chuck Kaye, no pushover and already having a roster of incredible songwriters on his client/signing resume. Chuck Kaye would become one of the most successful music execs in rock history, so again remember he is not a pushover still wet behind the ears in 1967.

Kaye thinks he's taking a meeting to get Brian Wilson somehow on board at A&M, a real coup. Or at the least, as even Van Dyke's new bosses would attempt with him, try to get an "inside track" on what the hell kind of new music Brian has been making under a veil of secrecy since fall 1966.

At the meeting, Brian pulls out some music to play for Kaye. Damn, this is the biggest scoop...Kay may have been thinking.

They listen, and instead of breathtaking new Brian Wilson music, it turns out to be the Jasper Dailey tracks.

And Kaye is left with the feeling he doesn't want to insult a potential blockbuster of a deal like Brian would be, but the music is not at all what he was expecting.

And consider this: For a prankster, a practical joker like Brian who also had a childlike yet psychedelic sense of humor, wouldn't the punchline of the elaborate joke when Kaye hears Jasper's vocals warbling some nonsense tunes set to a Smile-type instrumental backing be worth the whole thing?

Including staging sessions for Jasper in the first place???

Consider it another one of Brian's put-ons, perhaps...and consider how much he and Vosse and whoever else laughed as they told the story of how a legitimate label big-shot like Chuck Kaye got duped into thinking Brian was carrying him a world-exclusive rather than going there to pitch a Jasper Dailey release.

And that I think is Brian's humor trip played out in the offices of A&M, or it could have been...but surely more than a diversion, I think.

Think humor, that's one of the keys to Smile in general.

Interesting - but as you say this was an elaborate and time consuming prank - recording the Jasper tracks - that took away from the task at hand, completing Smile.  Part - even a large part - of the problem with Smile was Brian getting off into "side trips " - we'll do an album of nature sound effects, we'll do an album of humor, let's record an argument about Vegetables.  Cool ideas but it kept pushing Smile back until the "moment" had passed and Brian shelved it.

Delaying tactics. Always remember, Brian was, and remains, a consummate manipulator. He's had excellent teachers.

[Loaf]

Okay, so what if...

Van Dyke was invited to contribute to the TSS set. He was asked to write an essay for the booklet. He was sent lists of the tracks that were to be included.

What if Van Dyke himself didn't approve of so many unfinished/demo takes being included? What if he thought it would spoil the magic/mystery of the Smile myth or of what he and Brian had attempted to create? What if he was a little embarrassed about some of the material, but, as a lyrical-collaorator only, he had no say in any veto in the tracklisting, and instead protested by not contributing to the set?

Maybe had no problem with BWPS because: a) he was finally getting his public due b) it was a different entity to Smile itself.

Maybe he had a problem with TSS, but not BWPS, being assembled along Darian's three-LP sides plan when back in 1966 they had only planned two sides of the LP?

[buddhahat]

Okay, so what if...

Van Dyke was invited to contribute to the TSS set. He was asked to write an essay for the booklet. He was sent lists of the tracks that were to be included.

What if Van Dyke himself didn't approve of so many unfinished/demo takes being included? What if he thought it would spoil the magic/mystery of the Smile myth or of what he and Brian had attempted to create? What if he was a little embarrassed about some of the material, but, as a lyrical-collaorator only, he had no say in any veto in the tracklisting, and instead protested by not contributing to the set?

Maybe had no problem with BWPS because: a) he was finally getting his public due b) it was a different entity to Smile itself.

Maybe he had a problem with TSS, but not BWPS, being assembled along Darian's three-LP sides plan when back in 1966 they had only planned two sides of the LP?

Personally I can't see why VDP would have a problem with the inclusion of session material and outtakes. If anything, that stuff adds to the mystique and it's impossible to include all the unique pieces of music and feels without featuring a sizeable amount of session material.

I have wondered about your last point myself. Possibly VDP had a problem with the smile material being sequenced as per BWPS, or maybe some of the fly ins/digital trickery - perhaps he just generally had a problem with the disc 1 sequence. But from the comments AGD has made - 'truth is stranger than fiction' etc. - I'm inclined to think the reasons are far more subtle or abstract than this. If VDP had a problem with the disc 1 sequence I'd expect somebody would've leaked that info by now. Also he had a hand in the BWPS sequence so, if anything, that disc 1 order is a tip of the hat to VDP. Any other sequence would be arbritary imo.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Truth can also be far more prosaic than imagination.

[The Shift]

An aside: wondering if Van wrote an essay which - for whatever reason - wasn't included: will it ever see the light of day? That could be illuminating…

[The Heartical Don]

Truth can also be far more prosaic than imagination.

You mean he wasn't asked?

[buddhahat]

Truth can also be far more prosaic than imagination.

You mean he wasn't asked?

I hadn't even considered that possibility. That would be pretty insulting. I hope it wasn't the case.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Truth can also be far more prosaic than imagination.

You mean he wasn't asked?

No, I mean you're all going with the most fanciful - or self-fulfilling - theories. Of course he was asked. I think the circumstance that lead to his not contributing* was mentioned, or at least alluded to, before the box was released.

(* as I understand it. I may have been sold a pup, but I think not).

[Cam Mott]

I wonder if a group of fellas associated with SMiLE back in the day have sort of decided to not talk about it much anymore after BWPS?

[Micha]

Okay, so what if...

Van Dyke was invited to contribute to the TSS set. He was asked to write an essay for the booklet. He was sent lists of the tracks that were to be included.

What if Van Dyke himself didn't approve of so many unfinished/demo takes being included? What if he thought it would spoil the magic/mystery of the Smile myth or of what he and Brian had attempted to create? What if he was a little embarrassed about some of the material, but, as a lyrical-collaorator only, he had no say in any veto in the tracklisting, and instead protested by not contributing to the set?

Maybe had no problem with BWPS because: a) he was finally getting his public due b) it was a different entity to Smile itself.

Maybe he had a problem with TSS, but not BWPS, being assembled along Darian's three-LP sides plan when back in 1966 they had only planned two sides of the LP?

What if? Then you would be Van Dyke.

[guitarfool2002]

Wasn't going to step in, but...

If the only takeaway from the full three-part series of Anderle-Williams interviews is that Brian and Van Dyke had issues over lyrics and whatnot, I'd suggest re-reading the interviews and taking note especially of how many times Anderle mentions the resistance from band members and family members to Brian's Smile music, and how it reached the point where Brian and Mike would get into arguments during sessions to the point where it would break up the session and they'd walk out.

If you could put a number value or a ratio on the times Anderle mentions resistance and squabbles within the band during Smile versus the notion of Brian disliking VDP's lyrics, it might be at least 10-to1, if not more.

Short of trying to scan and post the whole thing, re-read it wherever it may be reprinted outside LLVS.

But the factors Anderle mentions most prominently and most often in the interview are far different than what's being suggested on the last few pages, regarding Brian and VDP over lyrics.

Note: I just reread the whole thing yesterday...