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Author Topic: Mike's leadership of the band  (Read 18802 times)
Lonely Summer
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 12:49:19 PM »

But what was stopping Carl from writing songs and at least attempting to contribute?
Maybe the fact that he wanted to save his songs for Beckley Lamm Wilson.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 12:57:37 PM »

But what was stopping Carl from writing songs and at least attempting to contribute?

He could have done. As he knew that his music would be appearing on a crappy Mike-controlled album you can't blame him for not doing so though.

So, wait? Carl's logic was: "I don't want my good songs appearing on a Mike controlled album. Therefore it's my decision all alone to prevent my quality songs from appearing on a Mike controlled album because the album is so, ya know, Mike controlled and God forbid I do anything of my own free, artistic will to make the album less Mike controlled"?

Really?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 12:58:35 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 01:05:44 PM »

Beside the touring, I don't think Carl's heart was in the BBs anymore. The fight to free Brian took a major toll on him.
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 01:07:54 PM »



So, wait? Carl's logic was: "I don't want my good songs appearing on a Mike controlled album. Therefore it's my decision all alone to prevent my quality songs from appearing on a Mike controlled album because the album is so, ya know, Mike controlled and God forbid I do anything of my own free, artistic will to make the album less Mike controlled"?

Really?

What's your argument?

That Carl could have made Summer in Paradise less of a Mike-controlled album and therefore that means that the album that we got which is full of songs written or chosen by Mike isn't Mike-controlled?

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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 01:11:13 PM »

Um, yeah..... How can we blame Mike for farting out a "Mike controlled" album when no one else was stepping forward with their own material which would make it more of a group effort?

I think "Mike controlled" is a poor term here...... "Mike-left-holding-the-bag" is more like it....
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Myk Luhv
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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2013, 01:24:40 PM »

Couldn't they have done what they had been doing since 1996 (until 2012 obviously): Release no new material, tour constantly. No one seems to have cared about the paucity of new material for those 16 years, and everyone would've been spared those presumably horrible (I've never listened to them) post-1985 albums.
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sweetdudejim
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2013, 01:39:35 PM »

But what was stopping Carl from writing songs and at least attempting to contribute?

He did keep writing songs, but it seems the ones that did surface all ended up on the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson album Like A Brother. And overall, I thought they were pretty good, especially "Like A Brother" and "I Wish For You". And I assume these weren't offered to The Beach Boys (although maybe they were) because who would want nice songs like those on an album made up of the crap like "Still Surfin'" and "Summer of Love". It's a shame though that we couldn't have had a mid to late '90s Beach Boys album with "I Wish For You" along with stuff like "You're Still A Mystery".
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2013, 01:45:57 PM »

Um, yeah..... How can we blame Mike for farting out a "Mike controlled" album when no one else was stepping forward with their own material which would make it more of a group effort?

I think "Mike controlled" is a poor term here...... "Mike-left-holding-the-bag" is more like it....

Well...I think all four members (Mike, Carl, Al and Bruce) played interesting roles at that time.

Mike obviously wanted to be in control and there is no way that it can be said he was simply, 'left-holding-the-bag'. He wanted to be in charge of the setlists (and still does), he wanted to be even more in charge of the Still Cruisin' album, he wanted to bring the cheerleaders in and did, he wanted to make the Summer in Paradise album and judging by interviews thought it was great (I haven't seen any comments where he said he wished Carl had written some songs) and he wanted the power to fire Al and reinstate David Marks. The fact that Mike continues to be in control of The Beach Boys name says it all really.

As others have intimated, I think Carl had largely given up on the group at this point other performing in concert. He ceded control to Mike even if he didn't agree with some of the things that were happening.

From all accounts, Al was pretty bitter during this period about things that had happened to him previously and he was also unhappy about the setlists, the cheerleaders and performing several of the new songs. However he doesn't seem to have had the power to do anything himself and knew he was being forced out when David Marks came back into the band.

Bruce does seem to have been Mike's man and brought Terry Melcher into things and even supported the introduction of cheerleaders.

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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2013, 01:58:53 PM »

Was Mike really going to block/prevent/sabotage Carl from bringing in material for SIP?

SIP/Cheerleaders: bad idea, but a rather innocently bad idea. In the context of the time, we were all free to go listen to Kenny G instead, I guess.....

Do we really think The Beatles would be pumping out White Albums in 1992?
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2013, 02:03:25 PM »

Top hits of 1992:

1    Boyz II Men    End Of The Road
2    Sir Mix A-lot    Baby Got Back
3    Kris Kross    Jump
4    Vanessa Williams    Save The Best For Last
5    TLC    Baby-Baby-Baby
6    Eric Clapton    Tears In Heaven
7    En Vogue    My Lovin' (You're Never Gonna Get It)
8    Red Hot Chili Peppers    Under The Bridge
9    Color Me Badd    All 4 Love
10    Jon Secada    Just Another Day
11    Shanice    I Love Your Smile
12    Mr. Big    To Be With You
13    Right Said Fred    I'm Too Sexy
14    Michael Jackson    Black Or White
15    Billy Ray Cyrus    Achy Breaky Heart
16    Mariah Carey    I'll Be There
17    Guns N' Roses    November Rain
18    Tom Cochrane    Life Is A Highway
19    Michael Jackson    Remember The Time
20    CeCe Peniston    Finally
21    Madonna    This Used To Be My Playground
22    Patty Smyth    Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough
23    Mariah Carey    Can't Let Go
24    House Of Pain    Jump Around
25    Prince and The N.P.G.    Diamonds And Pearls
26    George Michael and Elton John    Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me
27    Atlantic Starr    Masterpiece
28    Celine Dion    If You Asked Me To
29    En Vogue    Giving Him Something He Can Feel
30    Joe Public    Live And Learn
31    Jodeci    Come & Talk To Me
32    Nirvana    Smells Like Teen Spirit
33    Bobby Brown    Humpin' Around
34    Sophie B. Hawkins    Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover
35    Teven Campbell    Tell Me What You Want Me To Do
36    TLC    Ain't 2 Proud 2 Beg
37    Boyz II Men    It's So Hard To Say Goodbye To Yesterday
38    Technotronic    Move This
39    Queen    Bohemian Rhapsody
40    Arrested Development    Tennessee
41    Luther Vandross and Janet Jackson    The Best Things In Life Are Free
42    Mariah Carey    Make It Happen
43    Elton John    The One
44    P.M. Dawn    Set Adrift On Memory Bliss
45    Shakespear's Sister    Stay
46    Hammer    2 Legit 2 Quit
47    K.W.S.    Please Don't Go
48    Mint Condition    Breakin' My Heart (Pretty Brown Eyes)
49    Cover Girls    Wishing On A Star
50    Hi-Five    She's Playing Hard To Get
51    P.M. Dawn    I'd Die Without You
52    Amy Grant    Good For Me
53    Toad The Wet Sprocket    All I Want
54    Michael Bolton    When A Man Loves A Woman
55    Genesis    I Can't Dance
56    Richard Marx    Hazard
57    U2    Mysterious Ways
58    George Michael    Too Funky
59    Heights    How Do You Talk To An Angel
60    U2    One
61    CeCe Peniston    Keep On Walkin'
62    Genesis    Hold On My Heart
63    Karyn White    The Way I Feel About You
64    Calms Dion And Peabo Bryson    Beauty And The Beast
65    Kris Kross    Warm It Up
66    Michael Jackson    In The Closet
67    Arrested Development    People Everyday
68    Genesis    No Son Of Nine
69    Marky Mark And The Funky Bunch    Wildside
70    Bryan Adams    Do I Have To Say The Words?
71    Cure    Friday I'm In Love
72    Ugly Kid Joe    Everything About You
73    Paula Abdul    Blowing Kisses In The Wind
74    Bryan Adams    Thought I'd Died And Gone To Heaven
75    Snap    Rhythm Is A Dancer
76    Hammer    Addams Groove
77    Michael Bolton    Missing You Now
78    N2Deep    Back To The Hotel
79    Kathy Troccoli    Everything Changes
80    Def Leppard    Have You Ever Needed Somone So Bad
81    Richard Marx    Take This Heart
82    Firehouse    When I Look Into Your Eyes
83    Jade    I Wanna Love You
84    Boyz II Men    Uhh Ahh
85    Mary J. Blige    Real Love
86    The KLF    Justified And Ancient
87    Color Me Badd    Slow Motion
88    TLC    What About Your Friends
89    Color Me Badd    Thinkin' Back
90    Charles and Eddie    Would I Lie To You?
91    Amy Grant    That's What Love Is For
92    Richard Marx    Keep Coming Back
93    En Vogue    Free Your Mind
94    Keith Sweat    Keep It Comin'
95    Mr. Big    Just Take My Heart
96    Amy Grant    I Will Remember You
97    CeCe Peniston    We Got A Love Thang
98    Def Leppard    Let's Get Rocked
99    Das EFX    They Want EFX
100    Bonnie Raitt    I Can't Make You Love Me
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Bean Bag
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2013, 02:07:17 PM »

Quote from: Bean Bag

There's really not much here -- a few decent tracks and a lot of nostalgia tours.   It's essentially a badge, a brand-name and a logo:  Summer.  Beach.  Fun.  Girls. Somewhere... a lurking genius (if they could only find him and get him to record).  And until then, enjoy these Summer nick-knacks from our gift shop!  Don't forget to grab your copy of Summer in Paradise on the way out!!   angel

It is what it is.

And what exactly is wrong with this?

I didn't say anything was right or wrong, just "what it was" - as alluded to in my closing remark "it is what it is."

But if you're asking my opinion of "what it is" -- then yes it was severally lackluster for a band that gave so much meaningful, moving and FUN material.  But given that the artistic talent (Brian) wasn't functioning or even around... it's fine.  It simultaneously damaged the image and kept it alive -- as they say "there's no such thing as bad press."  

Personally, some of the stuff from this era I like -- and some of it is a bit tough to listen too, even for me.  But I find all of it curious and interesting as a fan.  But even Brian's stuff from that time (and since) is more often than not -- odd.  But almost always very interesting.

Since Brian left it's pretty obvious that no one had any creative muscle, except Denny - but his stuff didn't fit the template.  Carl could do some, Al could do some too -- and Mike wasn't immune to producing some nice stuff on occasion either.  But without Brian cranking stuff out... it was going to be sketchy.  And post-85 is just simply very, very lean.  On quality and quantity.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 02:08:42 PM by Bean Bag » Logged

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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2013, 02:08:33 PM »

Do we really think The Beatles would be pumping out White Albums in 1992?

The Beatles were, and still are, very protective of what got released as The Beatles. This is one of the reasons why John and George felt they had to go solo rather than submit the material they had written for Beatles projects since it was very un-Beatley. It's also why Paul took the opportunity to write an extremely laid back, underproduced album as his first post-Beatles project. If they were incapable of pumping out what they considered White Album caliber albums they wouldn't have been making albums.

Meanwhile in 1992, Neil Young released Harvest Moon.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2013, 02:17:55 PM »

Bean and Rock n Roll, you guys are making very good points....
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2013, 02:19:09 PM »

Do we really think The Beatles would be pumping out White Albums in 1992?

The Beatles were, and still are, very protective of what got released as The Beatles. This is one of the reasons why John and George felt they had to go solo rather than submit the material they had written for Beatles projects since it was very un-Beatley. It's also why Paul took the opportunity to write an extremely laid back, underproduced album as his first post-Beatles project. If they were incapable of pumping out what they considered White Album caliber albums they wouldn't have been making albums.

Meanwhile in 1992, Neil Young released Harvest Moon.

Yes, but I'll take 100 Summer In Paradises over one Are You Passionate or Landing On Water  Evil
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2013, 02:30:10 PM »

Do we really think The Beatles would be pumping out White Albums in 1992?

The Beatles were, and still are, very protective of what got released as The Beatles. This is one of the reasons why John and George felt they had to go solo rather than submit the material they had written for Beatles projects since it was very un-Beatley. It's also why Paul took the opportunity to write an extremely laid back, underproduced album as his first post-Beatles project. If they were incapable of pumping out what they considered White Album caliber albums they wouldn't have been making albums.

Meanwhile in 1992, Neil Young released Harvest Moon.

Yes, but I'll take 100 Summer In Paradises over one Are You Passionate or Landing On Water  Evil

 LOL

Yeah, but I'm reminded of Nicholson's line in Cuckoo's Nest after he fails to pick up the shower room control panel:

"Well, I tried didn't I, goddamnit. At least I did that."

Also, personally, I'd still take those two albums over SIP.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2013, 02:35:28 PM »

Hey, at least we were somehow spared a Beach Boys/Right Said Fred collaboration

 LOL
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Nicko1234
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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2013, 03:12:04 PM »

Was Mike really going to block/prevent/sabotage Carl from bringing in material for SIP?

What relevance does that have? Are you really saying that if Carl had written one song on SIP that it would have meant that the group wasn't Mike-controlled at that time?

SIP/Cheerleaders: bad idea, but a rather innocently bad idea. In the context of the time, we were all free to go listen to Kenny G instead, I guess.....

I'm not sure many would consider 'Think of the blowjobs' as an innocent idea.  Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2013, 03:42:50 PM »

What does "Mike controlled" mean exactly?

If Mike wasn't stopping Carl (or any other Beach Boys) from bringing songs to the project, then couldn't you say SIP was more Carl, Brian, Al controlled than Mike controlled? Them leaving Mike to his own devices is like saying Mardi Gras was Doug/Stu controlled? It wasn't! Doug and Stu had no choice but to write and record material or simply give up/quit.

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« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2013, 03:57:35 PM »

Just wanted to point out that in that list of hit songs that PinderGoestoKokomo posted, Clapton's "Tears in Heaven" was sitting at #6. If someone like Clapton was able to get a hit with an acoustic ballad at that time, surely QUALITY Beach Boys material would have had the same chance of catching on. If only...
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« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2013, 03:59:51 PM »

What does "Mike controlled" mean exactly?

If Mike wasn't stopping Carl (or any other Beach Boys) from bringing songs to the project, then couldn't you say SIP was more Carl, Brian, Al controlled than Mike controlled? Them leaving Mike to his own devices is like saying Mardi Gras was Doug/Stu controlled? It wasn't! Doug and Stu had no choice but to write and record material or simply give up/quit.



It means that he was in control.  Smiley

As Al was fired from the band and only rejoined just in time to add some vocals, he obviously had little say at this point. As Brian was still under Landy's control at this time there is no way he could have done anything to affect SIP. The idea that they were more in control of the album is utterly barking.

By the way, do I take it from your posts that if you were stopped for speeding your argument would be, 'My wife could have chosen to drive today officer so couldn't it be argued that she was in fact more in control of the car than me?' I'll have to try that one...  Cheesy
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2013, 05:08:34 PM »

Just wanted to point out that in that list of hit songs that PinderGoestoKokomo posted, Clapton's "Tears in Heaven" was sitting at #6. If someone like Clapton was able to get a hit with an acoustic ballad at that time, surely QUALITY Beach Boys material would have had the same chance of catching on. If only...

I'll take Summer In Paradise over that song any day as well......  Evil

That AND his acoustic Layla cover.... I'd rather put Summer Of Love on 24/7  rotation for a whole summer than have to suffer that crap.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2013, 05:10:45 PM »

What does "Mike controlled" mean exactly?

If Mike wasn't stopping Carl (or any other Beach Boys) from bringing songs to the project, then couldn't you say SIP was more Carl, Brian, Al controlled than Mike controlled? Them leaving Mike to his own devices is like saying Mardi Gras was Doug/Stu controlled? It wasn't! Doug and Stu had no choice but to write and record material or simply give up/quit.



It means that he was in control.  Smiley

As Al was fired from the band and only rejoined just in time to add some vocals, he obviously had little say at this point. As Brian was still under Landy's control at this time there is no way he could have done anything to affect SIP. The idea that they were more in control of the album is utterly barking.

By the way, do I take it from your posts that if you were stopped for speeding your argument would be, 'My wife could have chosen to drive today officer so couldn't it be argued that she was in fact more in control of the car than me?' I'll have to try that one...  Cheesy

That's a different argument though.... If the authorities could issue Mike a ticket because of Summer In Paradise, I'm sure they would.... But it's more like Mike had to put himself in charge of the album in order to avoid massive tickets via the record company!!!
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2013, 05:19:21 PM »

Just wanted to point out that in that list of hit songs that PinderGoestoKokomo posted, Clapton's "Tears in Heaven" was sitting at #6. If someone like Clapton was able to get a hit with an acoustic ballad at that time, surely QUALITY Beach Boys material would have had the same chance of catching on. If only...

I'll take Summer In Paradise over that song any day as well......  Evil

That AND his acoustic Layla cover.... I'd rather put Summer Of Love on 24/7  rotation for a whole summer than have to suffer that crap.
Its not that bad.... LOL LOL LOL
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I don't see the point in punishing Brian's musical output solely because Mike wants to wow the President Elect with how long he can weeze "wheeeeeeen" into a microphone.- rab2591
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2013, 06:11:48 PM »

Tears Of Heaven is a decent enough song, and I certainly can't fault its subject.... We all have different tweaks to our taste, and I guess when it comes down to it, I find Mike being an absolute dork far less offensive than some other more "respectable" stuff..... At least Mike being a total nimbus still has some traces of DNA from the greatest band of all time.
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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2013, 09:21:58 PM »

From my perspective, it's pretty simple.  Carl is present, if not dominant, as a songwriter, musician and/or producer (whether credited or not) on every single album through BB'85, including the BW-produced ones, with one glaring exception:  the Al- and Mike-dominated M.I.U.

After 1985, he's gone in all three capacities.  Carl shows up, sings and leaves.  That's a pretty drastic change to how things were before.  With Brian and Dennis out of the picture because of Landy and death, that pretty much leaves Mike and Terry Melcher in charge.  I don't see how you can argue otherwise.  We can quibble over whether it was something that Mike wanted or was forced by circumstances to do, but a quick comparison of the credits to BB'85 and KTSA vs. every album thereafter says it all.  Mike was in charge, by choice or by default, take your pick.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 09:22:54 PM by adamghost » Logged
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