Carl and Mike's relationship

[guitarfool2002]

[Nicko1234]

Or to further dance around that bigger issue, if someone were to ask you personally for an introduction to the band's music through a playlist or a compilation/mix CD or something similar with songs you felt were a good representation of the band and its musical legacy, exactly how many songs from the Kokomo-Summer In Paradise-Still Cruisin' era would you add to that playlist? And would you go heavy on those 80's-90's era songs at the front end of such a collection? Or if they wanted a few video links which best represented the band, on your recommendation as a fan passing it down to someone less knowledgeable but interested in hearing what makes so many people think this band is great, would you link to the "Baywatch" appearance or the Kokomo video at the top of that recommended viewing list?

There is a common thread at work here which if it's not obvious already, it was to some like me who watched and listened and often cringed (or said 'what the hell is this?') as this stuff happened in real time from the 80's onward. And if some fans were into it, more power to 'ya! It's all personal taste, naturally, and the band obviously had reasons for doing what they did at that time.

I can completely understand you disliking the music of the era. I dislike much of it myself. But this has such a tenuous link to Mike pretending to play the saxophone in a video that I can't believe we've taken up so much board space discussing it. 

To get back closer to topic... I would guess that Carl knew a lot of the stuff they were doing was cheesy during this era but he also knew that they weren't capable of much more. He said himself that they weren't capable of making another Holland. Melinda has said that all of the band members were worried that Brian would embarrass himself or them when they did Stars and Stripes and I can't really blame them after all that had happened. It would seem from quotes in the Catch a Wave book that Carl was also very aware that some of the crowds they were performing to just wanted the meet and potatoes set so that's what they gave them.

[Cam Mott]

We just seem to be talking past each other so I'm out.

[El Molé]

Or to further dance around that bigger issue, if someone were to ask you personally for an introduction to the band's music through a playlist or a compilation/mix CD or something similar with songs you felt were a good representation of the band and its musical legacy, exactly how many songs from the Kokomo-Summer In Paradise-Still Cruisin' era would you add to that playlist? And would you go heavy on those 80's-90's era songs at the front end of such a collection? Or if they wanted a few video links which best represented the band, on your recommendation as a fan passing it down to someone less knowledgeable but interested in hearing what makes so many people think this band is great, would you link to the "Baywatch" appearance or the Kokomo video at the top of that recommended viewing list?

There is a common thread at work here which if it's not obvious already, it was to some like me who watched and listened and often cringed (or said 'what the hell is this?') as this stuff happened in real time from the 80's onward. And if some fans were into it, more power to 'ya! It's all personal taste, naturally, and the band obviously had reasons for doing what they did at that time.

I can completely understand you disliking the music of the era. I dislike much of it myself. But this has such a tenuous link to Mike pretending to play the saxophone in a video that I can't believe we've taken up so much board space discussing it. 

To get back closer to topic... I would guess that Carl knew a lot of the stuff they were doing was cheesy during this era but he also knew that they weren't capable of much more. He said himself that they weren't capable of making another Holland. Melinda has said that all of the band members were worried that Brian would embarrass himself or them when they did Stars and Stripes and I can't really blame them after all that had happened. It would seem from quotes in the Catch a Wave book that Carl was also very aware that some of the crowds they were performing to just wanted the meet and potatoes set so that's what they gave them.

The point about not being able to do another Holland is a very good one. Whatever we think of the music from the 80's / 90's era, what was the alternative? We might not like much of the music from that era but it's not like there were other viable release options. Artistically, the better option might have been to release nothing at all, but its hard to put blame at Mike's door for some of what happened during this time when no-one else had much to put forward for release. It's not like Brian junked Smile because Mike insisted on Summer in Paradise. By the time we did get to SIP, who else had anything significant to put forward? To Mike's credit, at least he tried to keep the Beach Boys relevant for a time in the later years.

I wasn't born until '84, so my perspective is all looking backwards. My personal opinion is that most of the music from this era cheapens and diminishes the Beach Boys legacy, and I find that frustrating. I think it damaged the Beach Boys image for several generations. It's incredible to think that Kokomo came out less than five years after Dennis had died. It's five years since 'That Lucky Old Sun' came out, but the gap between Dennis passing and Kokomo seems to me to be so much bigger. To me, Kokomo represents a very clear marker of what the band had become, even if the timeline and reasons for my perception of the change aren't clear, something had definitely changed by '88. Kokomo is  so far from who Dennis was as an artist that we can only imagine what he would have though of it.

Back to Holland and lots of positive things seemed to come together at the same time, probably for the last time. Two Brian classics (which become increasingly rare after this point), possibly Mike's best 'solo' composition, one of Al's most enduring compositions (though not personally a favourite of mine), one of Carl's best and his excellent production skills, two more great Dennis songs, Blondie's powerful vocals, Ricky's creativity and musicianship and the energy that the two of them brought along with a manager that really pushed the band towards creativity with a 'current' feel. After Holland, Brian's best moments become increasingly sporadic and often 'odd' lyrically, Carl stepped back from production and failed to develop as a songwriter, Blondie and Ricky left, Dennis' talents weren't capitalised on and he began to look for an alternative outlet (solo) before his health began to decline. Possibly with the exception of Al they all declined vocally and began to fracture as unit, with personal differences becoming more and more of an issue. Love You brought Brian back in during a creative burst before he withdrew again. Al and Mike stepped forward, but weren't able to match their Holland contributions. Holland was the last time it clicked for all of them in some way and after that the results are usually mixed. Its pretty obvious that after Love You, only Dennis had a lot to offer the Beach Boys creatively and his contributions to LA stand out a by a mile. I'd say that Carl contributed some great moments to '85, but they were mixed up with a good few clunkers. Take the best material from KTSA to Still Cruisin and there's a decent compilation with contributions from Carl, Brian, Mike and Al, but they couldn't bring it together all at the same time.

Kokomo, Baywatch, Stamos, Mike's Saxophone playing - they're all part of a change in what the Beach Boys represent to me, and I think many others. For those not old enough or interested enough to know the earlier Beach boys and their beautiful music, they might be more likely to know the band through these things than anything else. Mike became an increasingly dominating force, largely through others stepping back, passing away and compromising. But perhaps Mike and the Beach boys were simply taking the opportunities that came there way. Mike is obviously proud of Kokomo and its easy to see why. As someone who'd been unfairly blamed for many things and had been on the receiving end of some less than stellar treatment from his cousin's family, a big hit without Brian probably did feel all the more sweet. Creative merits aside, many people would be proud of a big hit like Kokomo 25 years into a music career. I might not like it and the band that the Beach boys had become, but my perspective is very different from its creators.

It's harder to see where Carl was during this time. He's there, but its less clear how invested he was in what they were doing. The last good opportunity for a solid Beach Boys album until 2012 was probably the Wilson/Paley material and apparently Carl didn't think it was the way to go. It's easy to see that as a big mistake, but Carl didn't know he wouldn't be around just a few years later. At the time, he might have looked forward to a full Beach boys album with Brian at the centre at some point - but who knows?

Apologies for a long and rambling post. In summary, I don't like what the Beach Boys became and I think a lot of it can be attributed to Mike, but I don't particularly blame him because all of the other Beach boys had the opportunity to create music and push the band in a different direction, but they either couldn't or didn't feel the need to do so. I'll still enjoy Carl's vocal on Kokomo and almost anything else he sang on and be grateful for the brief moments where the light of his beautiful voice still shone through cheese!

[SMiLE Brian]

I want to see M&B do this in 2013.

Though I felt an odd sadness when looking at this picture...

[SMiLE Brian]

Great post, El Molé!

[Autotune]

Great photo of ML playing the Shut Down sax solo.
Does not make me sad. I love these guys, nonsense included.

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe the issue was the way in which a band or an artist does stay relevant while maintaining the legacy of their greatest work. Perhaps the issue some fans had with this era was trying to justify something like Summer In Paradise or the appearances like Baywatch when the band's legacy seemed to be pretty well represented by the Pet Sounds reissue on CD in 1990 - which was well-received by the fans and critics and which led to a renewed interest in the band and that album, as well as the reissues on CD for the first time of all the original albums through the Capitol 2-fers.

There were old and new fans going to record stores to buy Beach Boys albums in the early 90's, so the question of trying to keep the fire lit under the band's legacy and relevance by trying to put new product/music on the shelves at a time when it would seem there was no one in the band either willing or able to see an album project through has to be mentioned.

I remember the excitement around the first Pet Sounds CD release, I remember 1993 when Rolling Stone gave the box set a 5-star review heaping with praise for the music, I remember people going back and rediscovering or perhaps newly discovering albums like All Summer Long and Friends and Sunflower through the various 2-fers releases. Then I also remember getting excited after reading that the Beach Boys would be appearing on Baywatch with Brian, only to watch what eventually aired and trying to square up that image and that "new" music I was hearing with the music that had a lot of people excited about the Beach Boys again, in other words keeping the legacy of their music alive.

It may have been difficult for some fans to have the classic albums fresh on CD and fresh in their minds trying to coexist with the new material of this time, to the point where some might have asked "Is this the same band?" Perhaps it was not the best decision to try maintaining the band's legacy with new material that fell short at a time when many fans were feeling excited about listening to and rediscovering Beach Boys music. In one hand, you'd be holding a classic album reissue, in the other Summer In Paradise...the decision to even try and force these different images of the same band to coexist especially for newer fans was probably misguided and perhaps a bit harmful to the legacy as well.

[Nicko1234]

Maybe the issue was the way in which a band or an artist does stay relevant while maintaining the legacy of their greatest work. Perhaps the issue some fans had with this era was trying to justify something like Summer In Paradise or the appearances like Baywatch when the band's legacy seemed to be pretty well represented by the Pet Sounds reissue on CD in 1990 - which was well-received by the fans and critics and which led to a renewed interest in the band and that album, as well as the reissues on CD for the first time of all the original albums through the Capitol 2-fers.

There were old and new fans going to record stores to buy Beach Boys albums in the early 90's, so the question of trying to keep the fire lit under the band's legacy and relevance by trying to put new product/music on the shelves at a time when it would seem there was no one in the band either willing or able to see an album project through has to be mentioned.

I remember the excitement around the first Pet Sounds CD release, I remember 1993 when Rolling Stone gave the box set a 5-star review heaping with praise for the music, I remember people going back and rediscovering or perhaps newly discovering albums like All Summer Long and Friends and Sunflower through the various 2-fers releases. Then I also remember getting excited after reading that the Beach Boys would be appearing on Baywatch with Brian, only to watch what eventually aired and trying to square up that image and that "new" music I was hearing with the music that had a lot of people excited about the Beach Boys again, in other words keeping the legacy of their music alive.

It may have been difficult for some fans to have the classic albums fresh on CD and fresh in their minds trying to coexist with the new material of this time, to the point where some might have asked "Is this the same band?" Perhaps it was not the best decision to try maintaining the band's legacy with new material that fell short at a time when many fans were feeling excited about listening to and rediscovering Beach Boys music. In one hand, you'd be holding a classic album reissue, in the other Summer In Paradise...the decision to even try and force these different images of the same band to coexist especially for newer fans was probably misguided and perhaps a bit harmful to the legacy as well.

I agree with an awful lot of that expect for perhaps the last few words.

Baywatch may have been harmful at the time but that will be completely forgotten about when people look at the band's legacy from now on. The same goes for Summer in Paradise as it is out of print and is unlikely to be re-released anytime soon. Some of the earlier dire albums like 15 Big Ones and KTSA are perhaps more likely to be harmful to the legacy as they will continue to be widely available.

Basically though I think the legacy is secure due to the number of original and compilation albums that will be out there which contain some of the band's best work.

[SMiLE Brian]

I remember as kid that I was pretty depressed with SIP being the last BBs album at the time. The scary thing about the whole 1985-1998 period is Mike regrets none of it.

[Lonely Summer]

I think the 1985 album was Carl's last attempt to make the band contemporary. He seemed re-energized and committed to the band after the solo albums and tours - the group even put a few of Carl's solo songs into the shows. When the 1985 album didn't set the world on fire, Carl retreated. It was all Mike's group after that, even if Brian and Al were both allowed a token song on Still Cruisin'. I don't know what else Carl could've done, it was an uphill battle, and the record buyers sure seemed to prefer the retro stuff like Getcha Back to more contemporary sounding songs like It's Gettin' Late. Even Brian, with the music press pushing him as the genius of the group, couldn't get a hit album with his solo debut. The real shame is that the success of Kokomo didn't motivate the band to make one last great album. Landy was not gonna let Brian record with the group unless he was credited as producer and co-writer; Mike just thought the success of Kokomo meant he and Terry should write 12 Kokomo clones; and who knows what Carl and Al thought.

[Shady]

I remember as kid that I was pretty depressed with SIP being the last BBs album at the time. The scary thing about the whole 1985-1998 period is Mike regrets none of it.

The man released "Santa's going to Kokomo" only a few years ago.

He regrets nothing.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

What exactly does Mike have to regret? I hardly think he was fighting down all the other Beach Boys and/or Brian for them trying to include quality "Holland" style material? They were the fun-in-the-sun Beach Boys and why not? It's just as big a part of their legacy as anything else and if no one else was picking up the slack, why was Mike supposed to just sit there and do nothing?

Speaking of, say 1985 and onward, how much of their great stuff post Pet Sounds was even in print? We had the Gaines book slagging off every single album since Pet Sounds and I remember all the respected music tomes (all-music guide and the like) giving Holland 2 pathetic stars along with all those albums, so why should Mike have assumed that sticking to that formula would get them anywhere?

[SMiLE Brian]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

Beach Boys 85-98: what else do you expect from a bunch of sober middle aged guys?

[SMiLE Brian]

Class and Dignity.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

Personally, I would say no.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

Personally, I would say no.

It was certainly cut from the same cloth and an attempt and progressing with the same formula!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Class and Dignity.

From the beach Boys??? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

Personally, I would say no.

It was certainly cut from the same cloth and an attempt and progressing with the same formula!

A formula, insofar as a genre is a formula. But that's saying Martin Scorsese's Casino from Goodfellas is following a formula similar to, I don't know, Charlie Chaplin's The Gold Rush and Modern Times, as the latter are both comedies and therefore progressing with the same formula.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I have to say, this "But Brian did it too" attitude when confronted with a Mike criticism is almost entirely akin to a religious person arguing that atheists have faith too in their religion of science.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

Personally, I would say no.

It was certainly cut from the same cloth and an attempt and progressing with the same formula!

A formula, insofar as a genre is a formula. But that's saying Martin Scorsese's Casino from Goodfellas is following a formula similar to, I don't know, Charlie Chaplin's The Gold Rush and Modern Times, as the latter are both comedies and therefore progressing with the same formula.

Oh yes, Casino is most certainly an example of an artist attempting to re-create the magic of a most recent success by utilizing the same formula..... I happen to love Casino though, so....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I like Casino, too, actually... 

[Wirestone]

You can't lop off 1985 onward without realizing the utterly stultifying effect that Endless Summer had on the band in the mid- to late 70s. And you can't talk about that without talking about the way that the group was almost instantly anthologized as an oldies act in the late 60s.

The fact is, this is a band that was always about a singular created reality. And that reality (loosely defined as surf/cars/girls/occasional mopey BW ballad) was so powerful that it warped the group's entire career, and continues to do so. The embarrassments of the 80s and 90s are easily explainable when you realize that this was something that had pulled on the group its entire career.

What's funny is, the group managed to hold it together reasonably well music-wise as long as Brian or Carl were in charge. Each one had enough of a personal musical vision that they could avoid being sucked too far into the past (or if they did, it was on their own terms). Mike had neither the artistic ability or aesthetic sense to do anything other than the most ham-handed, nakedly tacky crap once he led the band. But it wasn't his fault. The market demanded it, and he made it. And when the market stopped demanding it, he stopped making it.

[SMiLE Brian]

You could say a big part of Mike's odd behavior is trying to live up to that reality without moving on like Brian somewhat did. Mike Love wants to go back to those times and just can't as time marches forward.