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Author Topic: Carl and Mike's relationship  (Read 78145 times)
kirt
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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2013, 05:02:14 PM »

In trying to stay on topic, staying with Carl's role as on-stage band leader, staying with Carl's "keeping the peace" - and not trying to start anything Evil - if there were minutes kept for band meetings (assuming the band members attended those meetings), I'd love to read them. While I'll concede that Mike was the most vocal in promoting the 1962-1965 period songs, I will always believe the others - including Carl Wilson - eventually realized and came around to the "give the people what they want" philosophy. That doesn't mean that a part of Carl always desired the more artistic cut, or that he didn't become bored and ask himself "what am I doing here". But, Carl wasn't dumb, and he knew that if this Beach Boy thing was going to continue for the long run - and don't think the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ issue wasn't very, very prominent - so, I believe he was doing a lot more than pacifying Mike.   

 I think has a lot to do with why  the band plays more of those early years songs. I was at a concert many years back and Mike Love says "We're gonna play something a little newer"  and this teenager down a few seats from me tells his buddy "I don't want to hear any new sh*t."   I think that's how most casual fans feel. It's what's played on the radio and it's what people are familiar with.
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adamghost
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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2013, 05:17:20 PM »

My favorite Carl-Mike moment is on Knebworth where there's a point between songs where they get together and both look at the set lists written on their hands.

I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this question but my sense of it from various data points I've gathered is that after Carl got clean around '79, and then after his solo jaunt happened, it was a period of detachment for him.  He definitely needed to separate himself from the drug culture surrounding Brian and Dennis, and also the creative stagnation and associated inertia of the band situation.  Yet, obviously by 1983, it became obvious that he needed them and they, him.  By that time, Mike's been in charge for two years and just by pure momentum, Carl's sphere of influence on the band upon returning would be slightly smaller.  It may have shrunk a little further after the Carl-dominated 1985 album only did so-so business, and certainly after Mike's co-writing success of "Kokomo."  So it would appear that Carl was very practiced in the art of the possible.  He fixed what he could, and stayed out of anything negative wherever it was doable.  It's clear, for example, that Carl rolls an eyebrow at "Still Cruisin'" in his 1989 interview with Cathy Macgowan.  But he went along with it anyway.  And, I would imagine, cashed his check, and went back home to Colorado and did other things he was more interested in. An old friend of mine had a saying about arguments he stayed out of that I loved:  "it's not a hill worth dyin' on."  I bet Carl thought that way a lot.  He either went along with it and played on the team, or if he felt strongly enough he didn't, and it didn't happen.  Not a bad place to be.

The feeling I get about the Beach Boys' power structure after the early '80s was that Mike set the agenda, and Carl held silent veto power.  And the feeling I get about how they felt about each other was a hard-won mutual respect, recognizing each others' differences and value to the group.

The one thing that runs against what I have portrayed above is, and I have heard this from several people who would know (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), that Carl was deeply involved, and stressed out by, the conservatorship battle over Brian.  He was not at all detached in that situation and it seems to have done a real number on him emotionally and physically.

Anyway take that for what it's worth, probably not a whole heck of a lot.  I think it's a great question though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 05:20:34 PM by adamghost » Logged
Emdeeh
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2013, 07:24:35 PM »

Carl was stressed over the Landy situation even back in the late '80s. It was a very painful subject with him.


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Sound of Free
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2013, 07:26:37 PM »

Adamghost, I think you're right about Carl doing "what he could," and the best illustration is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XBMJ_ZM58

Before the embarrassing dreck from Mike, there is Two-and-a-half minutes of pure magic from Carl.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 07:54:11 PM »

It must also be noted that Carl sang "Sailor on Sailor" right up to the end (he also did "This Whole World" on occasion, too). He didn't entirely relinquish the setlist.
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« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2013, 08:15:55 PM »

That youtube sums up The Beach Boys, and a lot of the arguments on here, all in about 4 minutes!
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Youre Under Arrest
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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2013, 08:33:38 PM »

Better yet, what was Dennis and Al's relationship?
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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2013, 08:49:12 PM »

Better yet, what was Dennis and Al's relationship?

uhh... big brother/ short brother?
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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2013, 08:55:05 PM »

Better yet, what was Dennis and Al's relationship?

uhh... big brother/ short brother?

Fine! How was Dennis and Al's relationship? It feels like they never interacted.
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"My name is Brian and I'm the man, I write hit songs with the wave of my hand" - Brian Wilson

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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2013, 09:03:50 PM »

Adamghost, I think you're right about Carl doing "what he could," and the best illustration is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XBMJ_ZM58

Before the embarrassing dreck from Mike, there is Two-and-a-half minutes of pure magic from Carl.

That was an incredibly moving performance, I'd never seen it before.  Only Mike would think that bringing cheerleaders on stage after that was anything resembling a good idea.  As others have said though, I think by this point he had learned to pick his battles and keep the peace, so he knew there were trade-offs that had to be made to maintain the delicate equilibrium within the group.
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Sound of Free
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« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2013, 09:07:52 PM »

Better yet, what was Dennis and Al's relationship?

uhh... big brother/ short brother?

Fine! How was Dennis and Al's relationship? It feels like they never interacted.

I posted this in the picture thread. Oddly, in this shot it looks like Dennis is the clean one.

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« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2013, 09:38:18 PM »

All kinds of Beach Boys things are discussed in the greatest detail on this board, and still I can't find out what Al Jardine did to get suspended from the group.  I'd like to know what happened.
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« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2013, 10:09:45 PM »

"I was on the beach, and I stopped off at Al's house ... and he played me a new version of 'Cotton Fields' ..."
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adamghost
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« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2013, 10:43:07 PM »

Stebbins had some interesting comments on Dennis and Al's relationship, but if I could venture to guess, it would be just like two guys who work together who have basically nothing in common.  If you think about it, that doesn't generate hostility (a lot of the Dennis vs. Mike dynamic was driven by similarities between the two men, not just the difference) so much as indifference.  I'd guess that Al respected Dennis' musical talent but didn't really understand him very well personally and probably found his unpredictability unsettling.  I would also guess that Dennis liked Al well enough but probably thought he was boring and square ("man waiting for a bus.").  I can't see the guys hanging out and having all that much to talk about.  I could be wrong.  I could definitely imagine Al as a target for some of Dennis' notorious practical jokes.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 10:45:05 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2013, 11:02:01 PM »

My favorite Carl-Mike moment is on Knebworth where there's a point between songs where they get together and both look at the set lists written on their hands.

I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this question but my sense of it from various data points I've gathered is that after Carl got clean around '79, and then after his solo jaunt happened, it was a period of detachment for him.  He definitely needed to separate himself from the drug culture surrounding Brian and Dennis, and also the creative stagnation and associated inertia of the band situation.  Yet, obviously by 1983, it became obvious that he needed them and they, him.  By that time, Mike's been in charge for two years and just by pure momentum, Carl's sphere of influence on the band upon returning would be slightly smaller.  It may have shrunk a little further after the Carl-dominated 1985 album only did so-so business, and certainly after Mike's co-writing success of "Kokomo."  So it would appear that Carl was very practiced in the art of the possible.  He fixed what he could, and stayed out of anything negative wherever it was doable.  It's clear, for example, that Carl rolls an eyebrow at "Still Cruisin'" in his 1989 interview with Cathy Macgowan.  But he went along with it anyway.  And, I would imagine, cashed his check, and went back home to Colorado and did other things he was more interested in. An old friend of mine had a saying about arguments he stayed out of that I loved:  "it's not a hill worth dyin' on."  I bet Carl thought that way a lot.  He either went along with it and played on the team, or if he felt strongly enough he didn't, and it didn't happen.  Not a bad place to be.

The feeling I get about the Beach Boys' power structure after the early '80s was that Mike set the agenda, and Carl held silent veto power.  And the feeling I get about how they felt about each other was a hard-won mutual respect, recognizing each others' differences and value to the group.

The one thing that runs against what I have portrayed above is, and I have heard this from several people who would know (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), that Carl was deeply involved, and stressed out by, the conservatorship battle over Brian.  He was not at all detached in that situation and it seems to have done a real number on him emotionally and physically.

Anyway take that for what it's worth, probably not a whole heck of a lot.  I think it's a great question though.

As we seem to have very little first hand accounts, I think this gets pretty close. Very nice post.

And regarding Al and Dennis, we have the very telling "man waiting for a bus" quote!
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Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2013, 11:03:07 PM »

Dennis helped Al arrange the vocals for Lady Lynda, didn't he?

"Stebbins had some interesting comments on Dennis and Al's relationship, but if I could venture to guess, it would be just like two guys who work together who have basically nothing in common.  If you think about it, that doesn't generate hostility (a lot of the Dennis vs. Mike dynamic was driven by similarities between the two men, not just the difference) so much as indifference.  I'd guess that Al respected Dennis' musical talent but didn't really understand him very well personally and probably found his unpredictability unsettling.  I would also guess that Dennis liked Al well enough but probably thought he was boring and square ("man waiting for a bus.").  I can't see the guys hanging out and having all that much to talk about.  I could be wrong.  I could definitely imagine Al as a target for some of Dennis' notorious practical jokes."

Hasn't Al said something along these lines - that he didn't realise how good Dennis' work was at the time?
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« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2013, 11:38:54 PM »

All kinds of Beach Boys things are discussed in the greatest detail on this board, and still I can't find out what Al Jardine did to get suspended from the group.  I'd like to know what happened.

Al was having 'attitude' problems.
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« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2013, 11:53:19 PM »

Some of the cheerleaders took a liking to cute little Al, cutting into Mike's action.
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EthanJames
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« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2013, 12:05:40 AM »

Or maybe because of Al's terrible hair style, the guys were just sick of looking at it and told Al he was suspended until he did something with that hair of his lol
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« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2013, 12:08:18 AM »

and that's when Al discovered the ponytail!
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« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2013, 12:10:34 AM »

Or maybe because of Al's terrible hair style, the guys were just sick of looking at it and told Al he was suspended until he did something with that hair of his lol

Yes, Matt should have been kicked out for the same reason.  LOL
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« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2013, 02:05:18 AM »

Adamghost, I think you're right about Carl doing "what he could," and the best illustration is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XBMJ_ZM58

Before the embarrassing dreck from Mike, there is Two-and-a-half minutes of pure magic from Carl.

Thanks for posting this, I've not seen it before. It's particularly great to hear Carl sing the Brian part at the end, without having to sit through a Stamos lead vocal!

My favorite Carl-Mike moment is on Knebworth where there's a point between songs where they get together and both look at the set lists written on their hands.

I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this question but my sense of it from various data points I've gathered is that after Carl got clean around '79, and then after his solo jaunt happened, it was a period of detachment for him.  He definitely needed to separate himself from the drug culture surrounding Brian and Dennis, and also the creative stagnation and associated inertia of the band situation.  Yet, obviously by 1983, it became obvious that he needed them and they, him.  By that time, Mike's been in charge for two years and just by pure momentum, Carl's sphere of influence on the band upon returning would be slightly smaller.  It may have shrunk a little further after the Carl-dominated 1985 album only did so-so business, and certainly after Mike's co-writing success of "Kokomo."  So it would appear that Carl was very practiced in the art of the possible.  He fixed what he could, and stayed out of anything negative wherever it was doable.  It's clear, for example, that Carl rolls an eyebrow at "Still Cruisin'" in his 1989 interview with Cathy Macgowan.  But he went along with it anyway.  And, I would imagine, cashed his check, and went back home to Colorado and did other things he was more interested in. An old friend of mine had a saying about arguments he stayed out of that I loved:  "it's not a hill worth dyin' on."  I bet Carl thought that way a lot.  He either went along with it and played on the team, or if he felt strongly enough he didn't, and it didn't happen.  Not a bad place to be.

The feeling I get about the Beach Boys' power structure after the early '80s was that Mike set the agenda, and Carl held silent veto power.  And the feeling I get about how they felt about each other was a hard-won mutual respect, recognizing each others' differences and value to the group.

The one thing that runs against what I have portrayed above is, and I have heard this from several people who would know (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), that Carl was deeply involved, and stressed out by, the conservatorship battle over Brian.  He was not at all detached in that situation and it seems to have done a real number on him emotionally and physically.

Anyway take that for what it's worth, probably not a whole heck of a lot.  I think it's a great question though.

An excellent post. This all seems very plausible. Even with conservative set lists, I think Carl went some way to balancing this out with just his voice. They at least had one of the finest vocalists in popular music singing brilliantly consistently, even if we might question the set lists. Carl's voice alone lifted the Beach Boys to a higher level.

P.s. This is a great thread and it makes a nice change from some of the others that have descended into argument/unpleasantness!
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2013, 10:31:58 AM »

Let's not forget that when Carl rejoined the band after his solo tours, some of his solo material was added to the setlists - Heaven, Rockin' All Over the World, What You Do to Me. They didn't have to do that. The guys could've said to Carl "you wanna do your solo stuff, do it with your own band".
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« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2013, 11:24:31 AM »

Let's not forget that when Carl rejoined the band after his solo tours, some of his solo material was added to the setlists - Heaven, Rockin' All Over the World, What You Do to Me. They didn't have to do that. The guys could've said to Carl "you wanna do your solo stuff, do it with your own band".

Yes, and around that time, Al was doing "Buzz, Buzz, Buzz" and "Runaway", and Bruce was doing "I Write The Songs". If you take a closer look, if wasn't just endless summer.
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« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2013, 11:38:37 AM »

Supposedly, Carl had some conditions set for returning to the touring band in mid 1982, which included more rehearsal and a more interesting setlist. In the first few years after Carl's return, this seemed to help. But eventually as has been discussed, he seemed to put up less of a fight to the way the touring band ended up.
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