Carl and Mike's relationship

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Sorry, another Mike thread, but this is something I often wonder about.

We know lots about Mike's relationship with Brian and Dennis, and even Al to some extent, but what was the relationship between Mike and Carl? I think I'm most interested in how they got on after all the late 70's debacles, and after Carl left the group and returned in the early 80's. How did Mike feel about this?

Carl was clearly the band leader in the 70's, and still was fenickity about rehearsals right up to the 90's. Who chose set lists in this era? Was there competition, or bad blood when the group became an oldies act  (I always felt Carl resigned himself to that).

I suppose what I really mean is, did they like each other much, or did they just put up with each other in a purely working relationship. (I suspect it's not this cut and dry)

I just remember the Carl quote near the end of Endless Harmony, about his "colleagues being his best teachers", or words to that effect. I always found that a strange quote. That can be read on so many levels.

And Mike, in his recent interview, being unsure as to when Carl died. (Totally excusable, but to us fans its not a date we forget)

Any thoughts, anecdotes?

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Maybe I should have named this thread "Top 10  Carl and Mike's relationship", or "What's your favourite Carl and Mike's relationship?" 

Well I thought it was interesting..........

[hypehat]

"Rank The Beach Boys Relationships"

It's an interesting topic, if only I knew something to contribute! Carl in the nineties is so odd, there's that anecdote Carlin tells in his book where Carl seems really exasperated by the whole meat & potatoes schtick, but he blames the crowd or the venue rather than Mike.

What's also interesting is how Carl's taste kind of drops off in the nineties - his contributions to KTSA are the best contemporary things on it, he adapts the best to the modern tech on BB85 - I mean, with the best will in the world, Beckley Lamm Wilson is trash, and he nixed Brian's plans for both a new Beach Boys album and to play Pet Sounds live both of which seem like a slam dunk in hindsight. Maybe by the nineties he just came round to Mike's way of thinking?

[hypehat]

Mike, in his recent interview, being unsure as to when Carl died. (Totally excusable, but to us fans its not a date we forget)

See, I'd have that the other way round - I struggle to remember the exact year (1998?) but then I haven't spent the last 50 years of my life working closely with my cousin!

[El Molé]

I think it's interesting too, but I don't have much to add!

Carl seems to have been pulled in all sorts of different directions and held the differing personalities and egos together in one single group for an incredibly long time. After Carl died, the Beach Boys as we knew them fell apart and I think that says a lot. My impression is that Carl was able to get along with everyone and was the glue that held it all together through a long and sometimes difficult journey. That includes getting along well with Mike. I'd say that Mike and Carl 'shared' something of a leadership role, in that Mike was the 'front man' with Carl leading the band and the two of them sharing lead vocals on much of the material. We know that they had some differences in the late 70's, but other than that there's not much to suggest conflict between them.

I remember the Carl quote as something more like - "My brothers are my greatest teachers". I always considered 'brothers' in that context to include people like Mike, but who knows (and of course, I might have misremembered the quote anyway). I'd love to see that full interview.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Mike, in his recent interview, being unsure as to when Carl died. (Totally excusable, but to us fans its not a date we forget)

See, I'd have that the other way round - I struggle to remember the exact year (1998?) but then I haven't spent the last 50 years of my life working closely with my cousin!

Well yes, I thought it was poor as well, and maybe a tad dismissive, but I do try to be as fair to the guy as I can be. He's old.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Carl seems to have been pulled in all sorts of different directions and held the differing personalities and egos together in one single group for an incredibly long time. After Carl died, the Beach Boys as we knew them fell apart and I think that says a lot. My impression is that Carl was able to get along with everyone and was the glue that held it all together through a long and sometimes difficult journey.

This is my impression as well, and is what we have "on record". I'd just love to know how they got on in private, whether there was any sort of friendly family relationship between them, so to speak.

I remember the Carl quote as something more like - "My brothers are my greatest teachers". I always considered 'brothers' in that context to include people like Mike, but who knows (and of course, I might have misremembered the quote anyway). I'd love to see that full interview.

I'm so sure it's band mates, or colleagues. I don't have the damn thing to hand. It is ambiguous though, I always read it that he learnt tolerance, and empathy, but at the expense of his own feelings and ambitions, which is sort of what you alluded to at the beginning of your post.

[MBE]

Well I did get an interesting comment from Marilyn in 1995. I asked why Carl didn't fight for more artistic shows after Dennis died, and she said basically that time had made it a lesser issue and that the peace between them was more valued. She was very fond of Carl and considered him a very good person.

[EthanJames]

The only person I herd Carl had a bit of problems with was with Bruce (I believe).

[Sheriff John Stone]

In trying to stay on topic, staying with Carl's role as on-stage band leader, staying with Carl's "keeping the peace" - and not trying to start anything - if there were minutes kept for band meetings (assuming the band members attended those meetings), I'd love to read them. While I'll concede that Mike was the most vocal in promoting the 1962-1965 period songs, I will always believe the others - including Carl Wilson - eventually realized and came around to the "give the people what they want" philosophy. That doesn't mean that a part of Carl always desired the more artistic cut, or that he didn't become bored and ask himself "what am I doing here". But, Carl wasn't dumb, and he knew that if this Beach Boy thing was going to continue for the long run - and don't think the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ issue wasn't very, very prominent - so, I believe he was doing a lot more than pacifying Mike.   

[Nicko1234]

As Carl presumably agreed to Al being suspended from the group in the early 1990s, it would be interesting to know what his relationship with Al was like.

With regard to the setlists, I think Carl was right in that it was down to the fans that they played the greatest hits. Mike's attitude is to give the fans what they want and Bruce said a few years ago that the fans would walk out if they played a different setlist. In the 80s and 90s there is no way the crowd would have wanted to hear stuff from Sunflower or Surf's Up.

[Nicko1234]

In trying to stay on topic, staying with Carl's role as on-stage band leader, staying with Carl's "keeping the peace" - and not trying to start anything - if there were minutes kept for band meetings (assuming the band members attended those meetings), I'd love to read them. While I'll concede that Mike was the most vocal in promoting the 1962-1965 period songs, I will always believe the others - including Carl Wilson - eventually realized and came around to the "give the people what they want" philosophy. That doesn't mean that a part of Carl always desired the more artistic cut, or that he didn't become bored and ask himself "what am I doing here". But, Carl wasn't dumb, and he knew that if this Beach Boy thing was going to continue for the long run - and don't think the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ issue wasn't very, very prominent - so, I believe he was doing a lot more than pacifying Mike.   

Yes, you put it better than I did. 

Perhaps Al was the most vocal in complaining about the setlists but when he toured as BBF&F he ended up playing the greatest hits too.

[southbay]

Carl seems to have been pulled in all sorts of different directions and held the differing personalities and egos together in one single group for an incredibly long time. After Carl died, the Beach Boys as we knew them fell apart and I think that says a lot. My impression is that Carl was able to get along with everyone and was the glue that held it all together through a long and sometimes difficult journey.

This is my impression as well, and is what we have "on record". I'd just love to know how they got on in private, whether there was any sort of friendly family relationship between them, so to speak.

I remember the Carl quote as something more like - "My brothers are my greatest teachers". I always considered 'brothers' in that context to include people like Mike, but who knows (and of course, I might have misremembered the quote anyway). I'd love to see that full interview.

I'm so sure it's band mates, or colleagues. I don't have the damn thing to hand. It is ambiguous though, I always read it that he learnt tolerance, and empathy, but at the expense of his own feelings and ambitions, which is sort of what you alluded to at the beginning of your post.

It was "partners"

[urbanite]

Was Al suspended from the group in the 90's and what for?

[Nicko1234]

Was Al suspended from the group in the 90's and what for?

Being 'off message'. He was reinstated during work on Summer in Paradise.

[runnersdialzero]

Basically, Jardine was disciplined for grabbing his crotch and yelling "SUK DEEZ NUTZ" at some fans during a concert who were throwing eggs/batteries/eggs filled with battery acid at him and yelling "Kiss. The mid-get. Kiss. The mid-get." over and over. One of the fans was none other than Mike Love, moving to the crowd and yelling it into the microphone at Al. I was there, it was horrible to watch.

[SMiLE Brian]

 

[EthanJames]

I could imagine Al saying something like that with that voice of his   

[El Molé]

Carl seems to have been pulled in all sorts of different directions and held the differing personalities and egos together in one single group for an incredibly long time. After Carl died, the Beach Boys as we knew them fell apart and I think that says a lot. My impression is that Carl was able to get along with everyone and was the glue that held it all together through a long and sometimes difficult journey.

This is my impression as well, and is what we have "on record". I'd just love to know how they got on in private, whether there was any sort of friendly family relationship between them, so to speak.

I remember the Carl quote as something more like - "My brothers are my greatest teachers". I always considered 'brothers' in that context to include people like Mike, but who knows (and of course, I might have misremembered the quote anyway). I'd love to see that full interview.

I'm so sure it's band mates, or colleagues. I don't have the damn thing to hand. It is ambiguous though, I always read it that he learnt tolerance, and empathy, but at the expense of his own feelings and ambitions, which is sort of what you alluded to at the beginning of your post.

It was "partners"

Thanks! Still a little ambiguous but in the context of an interview about the Beach Boys (I assume), I think its fair to say he was talking about his fellow Beach Boys.

[leggo of my ego]

Re: Carl and Mike's relationship

First cousins, right?

Next question!

[Cam Mott]

Yeah, they were first cousins and equal business partners. Whatever that means. I don't recall ever hearing where Mike and Carl  specifically were on the outs.

I don't remember where I got the ideas anymore but I thought I understood that Carl was the touring band leader right up until he could tour no more and that playlist selection was a more or less democratic decision by the band. I suppose Carl was the most equal amongst equals. Anybody know different?

[Emdeeh]

All I know is what I observed -- when they needed to share a dressing room, it was Carl and Al in one and Bruce and Mike in the other. Carl and Al socialized together (dinner, etc.) sometimes during the period in question. Not sure whether Carl socialized with Mike or Bruce.

My own feeling is that Carl was so busy being peacemaker that he didn't have much time for reworking the setlist extensively. That would mean rehearsing the backing band, for one thing. But he did add new songs once in a while ("This Whole World" for one example) and even added a few requests to the setlist. And he was certainly in favor of the 1993 unplugged box set tour.

[southbay]

All I know is what I observed -- when they needed to share a dressing room, it was Carl and Al in one and Bruce and Mike in the other. Carl and Al socialized together (dinner, etc.) sometimes during the period in question. Not sure whether Carl socialized with Mike or Bruce.

My own feeling is that Carl was so busy being peacemaker that he didn't have much time for reworking the setlist extensively. That would mean rehearsing the backing band, for one thing. But he did add new songs once in a while ("This Whole World" for one example) and even added a few requests to the setlist. And he was certainly in favor of the 1993 unplugged box set tour.

True--at least for the years 1991-1996, Carl and Al shared dressing rooms, as did Mike and Bruce. When Carl toured with his illness in '97 (at least for the shows I was at), he had a private dressing room with Al, Mike and Bruce sharing one together (which was odd, because one night in LA even  Stamos had his own dressing room backstage...)

[Rocker]

All I know is what I observed -- when they needed to share a dressing room, it was Carl and Al in one and Bruce and Mike in the other. Carl and Al socialized together (dinner, etc.) sometimes during the period in question. Not sure whether Carl socialized with Mike or Bruce.

My own feeling is that Carl was so busy being peacemaker that he didn't have much time for reworking the setlist extensively. That would mean rehearsing the backing band, for one thing. But he did add new songs once in a while ("This Whole World" for one example) and even added a few requests to the setlist. And he was certainly in favor of the 1993 unplugged box set tour.

Somewhere I read that Carl and Al got quite close after Dennis died and Bruce came back full time. I always wondered though why Carl allegedly was ok with the plan of getting Al out of the group (which in itself is a totally absurd decision imo)

[PaulTMA]

Al was suspended because he didn't like Bran Van 3000.