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Author Topic: More studio news  (Read 93589 times)
AndrewHickey
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« Reply #475 on: May 25, 2013, 08:53:43 AM »

You're a hard man to please, Andrew Hickey.

I just have different tastes to the rest of the board. I thought The Private Life Of Bill And Sue was fantastic, for example.
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« Reply #476 on: May 25, 2013, 09:08:06 AM »

I mean, depending on what you believe, JT is fulfilling the role Chuck Britz used to - Brian asks 'can we get X sounding like Y' and he does it, but also takes a lot of the engineering heft, knowing how to use the sheer nuts and bolts of the recording technology under the order of Brian who really doesn't want to know how to bounce 16 mics onto one track/f*** with the banal logic of digital recording so long as the sound he wants is possible.

Which, I guess, leads onto Brian being happy with how TWGMTR sounds - it sounds processed to the point of mediocrity , but it doesn't sound offkey I guess - but that speaks volumes to JT as a producer. JT doesn't want 'real' performances. Imagine if JT, rather than Rick Rubin, produced Johnny Cash in his final years - Rubin might have dressed the tracks in various ornamentation, but he never f***ed with Johnny's vocal. It's really akin to that, given that you're dealing with such an act. They aren't Ricky & The Rockets, y'know...

Good point. JT has no business manipulating the voices of one of the greatest vocal acts of all time. Tweaking vocals of someone very famous for not having the need to do so is incredibly disrespectful to that artist's legacy. JT should be utterly ashamed of himself for what he has done.

The fact that the Beach Boys used to have the voices to qualify for the claim of "one of the greatest vocal acts of all time" shouldn't cloud the facts that they can't live up to anything near that claim right now. Listen, I love them. And I despite excessive processing, by which I mean overly unnatural or robotic results. But the guys, live around a single mic (or pair of mics, if you're giving Mike his own), would be a disaster. Even if the songs were arranged to drop them into reasonable registers, it would be rough.

Vocal Range.
The guys were masters of tight harmonies, but even with that fact, there is a certain amount of range required. That range is dramatically reduced because of age and death. Even the one everyone here says has a voice unchanged by time--Al--doesn't have the range he used to. He has a similar timbre to that of his youth, but his high range is without question diminished. While we are occasionally told Brian still has the same falsetto as he used to (but that it's "louder than God," if I recall AGD's quote of someone else's quote...Darian?), we don't hear it. Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's. Sure, you can replace the parts, but you're already manipulating the voices of the greatest vocal act of all time if you're bringing in other people (family members or old friends or not).

Oh, and Mike's bass voice isn't consistently strong, either. He is less powerful than in his youth. Especially on record there are ways to compensate, but isn't that manipulating the voice of a member of one of the greatest vocal acts of all time?

Vocal Quality / Accuracy.
Brian cannot sing on pitch on a consistent basis. He also doesn't articulate well. This is a huge problem for a band whose arrangements require tight harmonies on extended chords. Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, or the aforementioned Johnny CAsh--these types can get away with their voices' decay because their songs don't require tight harmonies with things like like major seventh chords or 13th chords or suspensions. But when you're working with chords incorporating tight intervals (a root and a seventh both in the same chord, a fifth and a sixth, etc.), it matters a lot. Brian doesn't even consistently sing melodies on pitch.

Further, someone like Bruce (and sometimes Mike) sounds breathy now, whereas he once had a clear and almost brassy voice. He's more a Dennis now in that--and only that!--respect.

And while David brings a lot to the table instrumentally, his voice is another one that just isn't a standout.

Summary
In the end, this band of senior citizens is not capable of singing at anywhere near the quality they used to sing without studio manipulation. I'm not saying they are terrible singers now, and each voice still has its strengths and charms. But with a reduced range to work within combined with the natural ravages of time and misfortune of loss, the choices are limited: write non-"Beach Boys" vocal arrangements that accommodate their limitations by using middle-low registers and fewer tight or difficult harmonies; bring in non-band member vocalists who can sing the parts (and feature them in the mix); or manipulate the band's voices through the available means in the studio. Desper has talked about using studio technology to do things like speed tape to get higher vocal parts, and obviously they've been optimizing multitrack and splicing technology almost forever to get takes that are better than what they could actually perform in-person.

The debate seems mostly a reworking of Churchill's quote: we've already [long-since] established [that they'll use studio manipulation to create the illusion of perfect vocals], now we're just haggling over [the specific manipulation]. Or something like that...
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« Reply #477 on: May 25, 2013, 09:22:35 AM »

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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« Reply #478 on: May 25, 2013, 09:29:23 AM »

Well, we got the best Brian track in who knows how long from Bon Jovi sooooooooooooooo..........

I was extremely unimpressed myself, but OK, substitute Jimmy Buffet then.
And if I was Mike Love I might respond and substitute with the name Van Dyke Parks. Wink
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« Reply #479 on: May 25, 2013, 09:32:45 AM »

The fact that the Beach Boys used to have the voices to qualify for the claim of "one of the greatest vocal acts of all time" shouldn't cloud the facts that they can't live up to anything near that claim right now.

They're still good.

Quote
And I despite excessive processing, by which I mean overly unnatural or robotic results. But the guys, live around a single mic (or pair of mics, if you're giving Mike his own), would be a disaster.

No one said this would be the approach the should use.

Quote
In the end, this band of senior citizens is not capable of singing at anywhere near the quality they used to sing without studio manipulation. I'm not saying they are terrible singers now, and each voice still has its strengths and charms. But with a reduced range to work within combined with the natural ravages of time and misfortune of loss, the choices are limited: write non-"Beach Boys" vocal arrangements that accommodate their limitations by using middle-low registers and fewer tight or difficult harmonies; bring in non-band member vocalists who can sing the parts (and feature them in the mix); or manipulate the band's voices through the available means in the studio.

That doesn't justify the piss-poor approach that is being used to "hide" their limitations. It doesn't have to be this way. You're talking a bunch of millionaires whom are recognized as one of the most important groups of all time, this is not anywhere near the best that could be done by their producers and handlers. The execution is poor, the time and effort aren't there or aren't there to the extent that they really should be, people like Joe Thomas are being lazy, doing well below what should be the minimum amount of work in preserving the band's legacy and laughing all the way to the bank as they do so.

These people's means of "perfecting" the supposed imperfections and limitations of the Beach Boys only serve to embarrass the band and make them look incapable of what they're indeed capable of, if not to the same extent they were in 1965. I've heard on more than one occasion they it's obvious they can't sing worth sh*t anymore and that the reunion was little more than a cash grab by a bunch of formerly talented old men. The job done on the live album only solidifies that to these people. It doesn't have to be like that at all.

People seem to forget that, just a few years ago, we had some of the best vocals Brian has recorded in decades on the Gershwin album and, to a slightly lesser extent, TLOS and the Disney record. They may have sounded every so slightly glossy on occasion, but it wasn't at all to the point of distraction. The manipulation was rarely obvious (as opposed to being consistently obvious on some parts of the last two Beach Boys releases), most things were approached in good taste. His vocals just sounded good and sounded pretty natural. He sounded great on the live releases. Then Joe Thomas stepped in.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 10:01:48 AM by runnersdialzero! » Logged

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« Reply #480 on: May 25, 2013, 09:39:17 AM »

The fact that the Beach Boys used to have the voices to qualify for the claim of "one of the greatest vocal acts of all time" shouldn't cloud the facts that they can't live up to anything near that claim right now.

They're still good.
I agree.

Quote
And I despite excessive processing, by which I mean overly unnatural or robotic results. But the guys, live around a single mic (or pair of mics, if you're giving Mike his own), would be a disaster.

No one said this would be the approach the should use.

Maybe you didn't say it, but the post I quoted in my initial one certainly implied something similar. Cabinessenceking said: "JT has no business manipulating the voices of one of the greatest vocal acts of all time. Tweaking vocals of someone very famous for not having the need to do so is incredibly disrespectful to that artist's legacy." I would say that "no business manipulating the voices" means something quite similar to, well, "no business manipulating the voices." Meaning leave them to sing without manipulation. That's what I was responding directly to. Not other people's positions that may be more nuanced and allow for some types of manipulation but not others (which, as I said, would actually by my position).


Quote
In the end, this band of senior citizens is not capable of singing at anywhere near the quality they used to sing without studio manipulation. I'm not saying they are terrible singers now, and each voice still has its strengths and charms. But with a reduced range to work within combined with the natural ravages of time and misfortune of loss, the choices are limited: write non-"Beach Boys" vocal arrangements that accommodate their limitations by using middle-low registers and fewer tight or difficult harmonies; bring in non-band member vocalists who can sing the parts (and feature them in the mix); or manipulate the band's voices through the available means in the studio.

That doesn't justify the piss-poor approach that is being used to "hide" their limitations. It doesn't have to be this way. You're talking a bunch of millionaires whom are recognized as one of the most important groups of all time, this is not anywhere near the best that could be done by their producers and handlers. The execution is poor, the time and effort aren't there or aren't there to the extent that they really should be, people like Joe Thomas are being lazy, doing well below what should be the minimum amount of work in preserving the band's legacy and laughing all the way to the bank as they do so.

These people's means of "perfecting" the supposed imperfections and limitations of the Beach Boys only serve to embarrass the band and make them look incapable of what they're indeed capable of. I've heard on more than one occasion they it's obvious they can't sing worth sh*t anymore and that the reunion was little more than a cash grab by a bunch of formerly talented old men. The job done on the live album only solidifies that to these people. It doesn't have to be like that at all.

I agree.
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« Reply #481 on: May 25, 2013, 09:39:59 AM »

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I find others' faith disturbing.
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« Reply #482 on: May 25, 2013, 09:48:06 AM »

Maybe you didn't say it, but the post I quoted in my initial one certainly implied something similar. Cabinessenceking said: "JT has no business manipulating the voices of one of the greatest vocal acts of all time. Tweaking vocals of someone very famous for not having the need to do so is incredibly disrespectful to that artist's legacy." I would say that "no business manipulating the voices" means something quite similar to, well, "no business manipulating the voices." Meaning leave them to sing without manipulation. That's what I was responding directly to. Not other people's positions that may be more nuanced and allow for some types of manipulation but not others (which, as I said, would actually by my position).

Fair 'nough. I'm sure he didn't explicitly mean "no business manipulating" as in leaving them untouched given their voices have been "manipulated" in one way or another since 1961, though.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I find others' faith disturbing.

Yeah, well. ;(
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 09:50:54 AM by runnersdialzero! » Logged

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« Reply #483 on: May 26, 2013, 04:35:38 AM »

Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's.


The album TWGMTR has Bruce on some falsetto parts. And he usually did the high ending on "Fun, fun, fun" live (probably does the same when touring with Mike solo).
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« Reply #484 on: May 26, 2013, 09:51:12 AM »

Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's.


The album TWGMTR has Bruce on some falsetto parts. And he usually did the high ending on "Fun, fun, fun" live (probably does the same when touring with Mike solo).
There's other high bits he does live - on "God Only Knows", for instance (if I'm not mistaken).
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« Reply #485 on: May 26, 2013, 10:05:08 AM »

Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's.


The album TWGMTR has Bruce on some falsetto parts. And he usually did the high ending on "Fun, fun, fun" live (probably does the same when touring with Mike solo).
There's other high bits he does live - on "God Only Knows", for instance (if I'm not mistaken).


The middle part? Might be, I'd have to listen to it. And of course he goes high on "Disney girls (1957)".
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« Reply #486 on: May 26, 2013, 02:31:12 PM »

Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's.
The album TWGMTR has Bruce on some falsetto parts. And he usually did the high ending on "Fun, fun, fun" live (probably does the same when touring with Mike solo).

My understanding, based on some of the interviews, and on just listening, is that Bruce does most of the falsetto in the harmony stack on almost the entire record, with Foskett just below in Carl's old spot.
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« Reply #487 on: May 26, 2013, 02:33:56 PM »

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« Reply #488 on: May 26, 2013, 02:59:49 PM »

"church bingo chances"  Wink
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« Reply #489 on: May 26, 2013, 03:21:07 PM »

Zach, he hits a few good ones at the end when he breaks it down, iirc
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« Reply #490 on: May 26, 2013, 03:33:03 PM »

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« Reply #491 on: May 26, 2013, 03:39:20 PM »

Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's.


The album TWGMTR has Bruce on some falsetto parts. And he usually did the high ending on "Fun, fun, fun" live (probably does the same when touring with Mike solo).
There's other high bits he does live - on "God Only Knows", for instance (if I'm not mistaken).


The middle part? Might be, I'd have to listen to it. And of course he goes high on "Disney girls (1957)".
If you mean the "testing her chances" part, I'm pretty sure Brian did that on the record (according to Bruce himself), and he certainly doesn't do it on the 50th tour:



No, I wasn't talking about that specific part. He goes quite high at the end for example and (I'm not 100% sure about this one) during the do-do-do-do part just before the whistling starts.






I disagree. Also, it was my understanding that Carl was above Mike most times, below Al and Brian.


Yep, I agree with that.
Bruce has some moments on the album singing the falsetto but usually it's Jeff
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« Reply #492 on: May 26, 2013, 05:31:49 PM »

IMO We didn't hear enough Bruce on the record. He still has a fantastic voice.
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« Reply #493 on: May 26, 2013, 09:26:22 PM »

IMO We didn't hear enough Bruce on the record. He still has a fantastic voice.

Honestly, I thought that amount of Bruce was a bit more than par for the course. In previous albums (except for Sunflower), usually Bruce got one lead vocal (if he wrote the song) and that was pretty much it. On this one he got the lead for part of the chorus on "Isn't It Time" and part of the lead for "Spring Vacation". He also did they falsetto on "The Private Life of Bill and Sue" and had a prominent part on "That's Why God Made The Radio" and "Think About The Days".
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« Reply #494 on: May 26, 2013, 09:39:32 PM »

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« Reply #495 on: May 27, 2013, 01:08:49 PM »

IMO We didn't hear enough Bruce on the record. He still has a fantastic voice.

Honestly, I thought that amount of Bruce was a bit more than par for the course. In previous albums (except for Sunflower), usually Bruce got one lead vocal (if he wrote the song) and that was pretty much it. On this one he got the lead for part of the chorus on "Isn't It Time" and part of the lead for "Spring Vacation". He also did they falsetto on "The Private Life of Bill and Sue" and had a prominent part on "That's Why God Made The Radio" and "Think About The Days".
But he didn't have single song where he sung the lead for the bulk of the song.

Exactly.

It makes sense though, wasn't he idea for a contribution to the record going to a re-recorded version of "She believes in love again". Maybe it's best we didn't get too much Bruce.
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« Reply #496 on: May 27, 2013, 01:12:22 PM »

IMO We didn't hear enough Bruce on the record. He still has a fantastic voice.

Honestly, I thought that amount of Bruce was a bit more than par for the course. In previous albums (except for Sunflower), usually Bruce got one lead vocal (if he wrote the song) and that was pretty much it. On this one he got the lead for part of the chorus on "Isn't It Time" and part of the lead for "Spring Vacation". He also did they falsetto on "The Private Life of Bill and Sue" and had a prominent part on "That's Why God Made The Radio" and "Think About The Days".

I think he sings the falsetto during the whistling section on "From There To Back Again" as well. He's still got it, for sure.
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« Reply #497 on: May 27, 2013, 01:59:41 PM »

Can we focus on the fact that we're gonna have a new edgy Brian album?

Yes thats RIGHT!

Cuzin Brian is going to come out with the most stupendous, awesome, ground breaking just "wow" album that Cuzin Michael and that bunch of seasick pelicans he is touring with will be utterly washed out the public consciousness. A new wave of "Brianmania will sweep the globe!

The only gigs Cuzin Love will be able to get will be at Chuck E. Cheese or local roller rinks. Michael will never recover from the blow and thus defeated, surrender the BB brand and go into semi-retirement heading a chain of tattoo parlors called "Love My Tat".  Razz
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« Reply #498 on: June 02, 2013, 10:27:40 AM »



From Brian's official facebook page: "Brian recording at Ocean Way with Scott Bennett in L.A."
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« Reply #499 on: June 02, 2013, 10:44:40 AM »

Brian's got a classic Jor-El (Brando style) look goin' on there, even down to the super-curl. I like it.
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