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Author Topic: To what extent did Brian write and produceTWGMTR  (Read 18273 times)
hypehat
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2013, 10:04:24 AM »

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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2013, 04:23:08 AM »

Oh yeah, I was talking about the lead. Anyway, I dug up the interview and found it's "Shelter" not "The Private Life of Bill and Sue" that Thomas tries to clear as a Brian lead.

JT: Brian sings, “I’ll give you shelter from the storm, and a house to keep you warm…” That’s one of the highest notes that Brian has sung since I’ve known him. It’s just great to hear him back there. A lot of people think that’s Jeff, but it’s Brian."
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And be fair -- Joe says that it's a split lead, and that Jeff's singing the high part (with Brian an octave lower) from "Do you ever still think of me?" onwards.

Fascinated to hear that more of "Think About The Days" than I thought is Brian -- it's not just the vocal arrangement, he credits him with the melody of those opening phrases, which are what completely make the song for me!

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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2013, 04:55:29 AM »

I love autotune, I just hate the tasteless application of it. It has its place in music as does any production tool, but one must be clever about how they use it.

I constantly cite Kanye West's "Heartless" as being a great example of how even something bathed in autotune can benefit from it on an artistic level. The vocal on that song sounds so clinical and empty and it creatively reflects the emotion of song's narrator really effectively.

On the other end of the spectrum you have artists like Michael Buble who use autotune and it sounds like a steaming pile of dog sh*t. It's distracting, offensively out of place and embodies everything that's wrong with mainstream pop production today.
And what's even more annoying about Buble is that he can sing fine live without it. Totally agree that it can be used tastefully though.b

Spot on. Buble's far from my favourite artist (it's a genre thing…) but he's a damn fine singer. Autotune makes his records stink though, it's painfully applied.
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2013, 05:15:27 AM »

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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2013, 02:56:34 PM »


Love it, but just one small quibble: shouldn't Robo-Al be waiting for a Robo-bus??  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2013, 05:46:45 PM »

I think Brian wrote what he was credited for, as far as produced....well Brian has not produced on his own since for decades. If he has credit he offered input but a sixties Brian Wilson production, or even a seventies, is a far different thing than any from the last 30 years.
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« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2013, 07:28:05 AM »

AndrewHickey, thanks for the hint re: TPLOB&S / Mary's Boy Child. Didn't know that song and the verses are indeed very similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kxr7WwPSMM

I didn't know that Christmas song as well. This YT version is magnificent! The singing is beautiful. Shall definitely add it to my collection. As for similarity between the melodies of both songs, to my ears, there's not much of it, only tiny amount. And to be honest, I think Mary's Boy Child is better.

2bossaroo: Great photoshop work done here! Al very fits for the role of the hero, especially Robocop since I used to like that movie.

Re autotune: after reading the complaints about it in various threads, I still don't hear what most of you hear, i.e. horrible voice effects etc. I reckon the Beach Boys sounded groovy on all autotuned TWGMTR tracks. Idk, there's real coolness in the way they sang. Yes, it's a bit robotic, I agree, but at least it's not some eurodance/europop band we're talking about --> that's where it's dreadful. The BBs' music is already tremendous & a iota (or even slighly bigger amount) of autotuning won't ruin it & their voices. Just my 50 cents to the interesting discussion.
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« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2013, 05:03:00 PM »

AndrewHickey, thanks for the hint re: TPLOB&S / Mary's Boy Child. Didn't know that song and the verses are indeed very similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kxr7WwPSMM

I still like Bill + Sue very much, mind you!  Grin

Ah...but this is the definitive version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF2Gu346JFA

 Grin
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2013, 05:00:29 AM »

Brian is "credited as produce of TLOS" but if he actually produced it then his one good ear has gone bad. It's atrociously produced. The CD is completely unlistenable and while demonstrably better the vinyl is still pretty bad - some members might remember the graphs I posted back in 2008 to prove the fact. I think it was AGD who said that something odd happened when he ripped the CD for his iPod it actually sounded much better. Or maybe it's the mastering engineer who is deaf. Such a shame because the music is 10/10 material.

TWGMTR, aside from the autotune, is actually well produced. It has a good dynamic range, the instruments and voices are not fighting to be heard at any time - they are all at a pleasing level. It is easy on the ear and comfortable to listen from start to finish even at high volume levels. The vocal processing isn't great in a lot of places. Has Autotune been used with Brian before? Oh yes, certainly since BWPS...but it is used very sparingly on BWPS and TLOS, just here and there on longer notes where perhaps he wavered. It's not always noticable on first listen.

You totally misunderstand the term 'production' in a musical sense.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer

This may make you completely rethink your understanding of  the phrase 'Produced by Brian Wilson', or it may not.

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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2013, 01:32:42 PM »

Brian is "credited as produce of TLOS" but if he actually produced it then his one good ear has gone bad. It's atrociously produced. The CD is completely unlistenable and while demonstrably better the vinyl is still pretty bad - some members might remember the graphs I posted back in 2008 to prove the fact. I think it was AGD who said that something odd happened when he ripped the CD for his iPod it actually sounded much better. Or maybe it's the mastering engineer who is deaf. Such a shame because the music is 10/10 material.

TWGMTR, aside from the autotune, is actually well produced. It has a good dynamic range, the instruments and voices are not fighting to be heard at any time - they are all at a pleasing level. It is easy on the ear and comfortable to listen from start to finish even at high volume levels. The vocal processing isn't great in a lot of places. Has Autotune been used with Brian before? Oh yes, certainly since BWPS...but it is used very sparingly on BWPS and TLOS, just here and there on longer notes where perhaps he wavered. It's not always noticable on first listen.

You totally misunderstand the term 'production' in a musical sense.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer

This may make you completely rethink your understanding of  the phrase 'Produced by Brian Wilson', or it may not.



Yup, you nailed it. I was gonna mention this too. Despite that, I feel that it still isn't a very 'Brian Wilson Production'.
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« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2013, 02:11:23 PM »

The worst part about TWGMTR is how the production sounds like it was fashioned after that song 'Only Time'

http://youtu.be/H6vise1xZwk

Which is funny because that song itself is enamored with BDW influence

There's absolutely no way Brian wrote the melody on Summer's Gone or the title track... mostly because they're so bad. I've never heard a Brian Wilson composition that was irritating until this came out. Forgettable, yeah, but not irritating.

At the same time, there's no way he didn't write the bulk of From There To Back Again. The people who were nudging the project were clearly unable to get that authentic in their Beach Boy emulation attempts. It sounds too much like a generic indie pop song. Nobody who listens to indie pop was less than 10000 feet away from those sessions.
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« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2013, 12:55:48 AM »

So you mean the title track sounds like a generic indie song? Why indie?

Personally I'd guess that BW probably had the most impact on "Bill and Sue", "Strange World", and "Pacific Coast Highway". These three sound like genuine BW material to me (and I'm well aware Thomas wrote the chorus of "Bill and Sue"). "Summer's Gone" I think is probably mostly a Bon Jovi/Joe Thomas composition with a heavy BW influence, while the title track might be every bit as much (or every bit as little) a BW song as "Sail On, Sailor". "Isn' It Time" reminds me of 15 Big Ones, so that just might be another case of BW calling the shots.
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« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2013, 01:09:12 PM »

So you mean the title track sounds like a generic indie song? Why indie?

Personally I'd guess that BW probably had the most impact on "Bill and Sue", "Strange World", and "Pacific Coast Highway". These three sound like genuine BW material to me (and I'm well aware Thomas wrote the chorus of "Bill and Sue"). "Summer's Gone" I think is probably mostly a Bon Jovi/Joe Thomas composition with a heavy BW influence, while the title track might be every bit as much (or every bit as little) a BW song as "Sail On, Sailor". "Isn' It Time" reminds me of 15 Big Ones, so that just might be another case of BW calling the shots.

In the case of Isn't It Time we know that the ukulele/bass riff on which the song is built came from Peterik and Millas. I suspect Shelter has a lot of Brian input as well...
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« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2013, 01:35:42 PM »

So you mean the title track sounds like a generic indie song? Why indie?

The title track sounds nothing like indie - more like 50s jukebox diner throwback....didn't stand a chance to be a hit single.
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« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2013, 08:23:24 PM »

The worst part about TWGMTR is how the production sounds like it was fashioned after that song 'Only Time'

http://youtu.be/H6vise1xZwk

Which is funny because that song itself is enamored with BDW influence

There's absolutely no way Brian wrote the melody on Summer's Gone or the title track... mostly because they're so bad. I've never heard a Brian Wilson composition that was irritating until this came out. Forgettable, yeah, but not irritating.

At the same time, there's no way he didn't write the bulk of From There To Back Again. The people who were nudging the project were clearly unable to get that authentic in their Beach Boy emulation attempts. It sounds too much like a generic indie pop song. Nobody who listens to indie pop was less than 10000 feet away from those sessions.

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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2013, 02:54:56 AM »

The vinyl is much better because of the sound and lineup. I was pissed when it took so long after, but hearing it I realized that it was delayed for a worthy cause. I still think it is the best album The Beach Boys did after 1973, if not up to much of their work before then. However the last three songs (the same on both formats) are pretty close to being classics. CD lovers I swear this time it's worth getting the record.

Again I think Brian played a role in the music production, but not the way he did before the eighties and certainly not like he did in the sixties.
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« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2013, 04:21:07 AM »

So you mean the title track sounds like a generic indie song? Why indie?

Personally I'd guess that BW probably had the most impact on "Bill and Sue", "Strange World", and "Pacific Coast Highway". These three sound like genuine BW material to me (and I'm well aware Thomas wrote the chorus of "Bill and Sue"). "Summer's Gone" I think is probably mostly a Bon Jovi/Joe Thomas composition with a heavy BW influence, while the title track might be every bit as much (or every bit as little) a BW song as "Sail On, Sailor". "Isn' It Time" reminds me of 15 Big Ones, so that just might be another case of BW calling the shots.

In the case of Isn't It Time we know that the ukulele/bass riff on which the song is built came from Peterik and Millas. I suspect Shelter has a lot of Brian input as well...

I agree, the verses at least sound like typical Brian! Not entirely sure about the chorus which somehow reminds me of the Still Cruisin' album (in a good way!).
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« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2013, 07:10:23 AM »

Always, always, always remember that everyone, myself included, went apeshit over how quintessentially Brian the tag to "Sunshine" on Imagination was... and how we all had to eat it big time when it was revealed that Joe Thomas wrote every last note of it. Jus' sayin'.
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« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2013, 07:48:11 AM »

Always, always, always remember that everyone, myself included, went apeshit over how quintessentially Brian the tag to "Sunshine" on Imagination was... and how we all had to eat it big time when it was revealed that Joe Thomas wrote every last note of it. Jus' sayin'.

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« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2013, 08:34:29 AM »

Always, always, always remember that everyone, myself included, went apeshit over how quintessentially Brian the tag to "Sunshine" on Imagination was... and how we all had to eat it big time when it was revealed that Joe Thomas wrote every last note of it. Jus' sayin'.

Absolutely. If a listener can recognize something as being in someone's "unique style," then some other writer, arranger, or producer can create something that sounds that way. It makes me cringe when people's "evidence" of Brian being involved is something like sleigh bells, wood blocks, or bass harmonica.

The reality that sort of ruins message board conversation is that Brian Wilson can make music that listeners recognize as sounding "like Brian Wilson," he can make music that listeners don't recognize as sounding "like Brian Wilson" (which is actually funny, in that it's impossible to not sound like oneself with one's own creation by definition), and other people can make music that listeners recognize as sounding "like Brian Wilson." And without documentation proving which is which, everyone is just guessing.
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« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2013, 08:41:46 AM »

Quote
the tag to "Sunshine" on Imagination ...

always makes me break out in singing:

Davy's on the road again
wearing different clothes again
Davy's turning handouts down
to keep his pockets clean
...
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« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2013, 03:37:52 PM »

Always, always, always remember that everyone, myself included, went apeshit over how quintessentially Brian the tag to "Sunshine" on Imagination was... and how we all had to eat it big time when it was revealed that Joe Thomas wrote every last note of it. Jus' sayin'.

Hah, when I first got that (a friend loaned me it and BW88 when I were 15 because those were the only other BB related CDs he had) the tag to Sunshine was the sole thing on Imagination that grabbed my attention. Typical...
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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2013, 06:43:03 PM »

It's probably true to say that Brian had mostly a "cameo" role on the composition of some songs. His credit on the title track, etc. were probably minimal and were just tacked on to legitimize them as Beach Boys songs -- the reception of the lead off single would have probably been worse if the general public knew it was written by outside songwriters.


I think Brian still can arrange, produce, etc. but he no longer does any of those things prolifically at all anymore. Most of his output in the past decade has been remakes and covers and are the products of collaboration with outside producers, bandmates, etc. I think he probably could be more of a creative force in his own work if he quit trying to make self conscious "Beach Boys music" and just do what pleases him. TYGMTR is a lame album because of how it attempts to conform to everyone's expectations of what the Beach Boys are (fun in the sun, Brian melancholy) rather than be its own uninhibited beast. Most of the best Beach Boys albums are in fact the products of relentless Brian creativity (Pet Sounds, Smile and Smiley Smile, Love You, etc.).

But maybe Brian is just doing what pleases him? I don't know.
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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2013, 07:03:17 PM »

Don't forget Brian wrote a fair portion of the lyrics to Spring Vacation.
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« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2013, 07:50:25 PM »

Andrew's point is well taken. It's impossible to know with anything approaching certainty what Brian's contributions are to most songs he's credited with. That being said, I'd far rather he be excited and creating songs with collaborators he likes than not making anything, regardless of his role.

All that being said, I break down the album as follows. Enjoy my absurd, imagined specificity!

Think About the Days (Thomas 60 / Wilson 40). JT's account of Brian singing a melody line on top of a JT chord progression sounds absolutely plausible.

TWGMTR (Wilson 20). I'd say Brian perhaps came up with the title, and otherwise it's his vocal (and perhaps instrumental) arrangements that flavor a song by other hands.

Isn't It Time (Wilson 30).  I'd give BW a little bit more here, since the chorus definitely sounds like something he might pound out.

Spring Vacation (Thomas 50, Wilson 30, Love 20). I'd say Brian did a bit of music -- probably in the chorus -- and some lyrics.

Bill and Sue (Wilson 60, Thomas 40). One of a handful of songs from the album Brian talked about specifically before the album came out. Again, JT's account of BW writing the music to the verses and coming up with the concept and title line seems pretty plausible.

Shelter (Wilson 70, Thomas 30). This seems like an assemblage of BW fragments crammed into a song, with a lot of lyrics from him too. That being said, I can also see the music to the chorus of this one coming from Joe.

Strange World (Wilson 50, Thomas 50). I enjoy the song, but some of the music doesn't strike me as being especially Brian-esque. The lyrics, on the other hand ...

From There to Back Again (Wilson 60, Thomas 40). Perhaps I want to over-credit Brian on this -- originally wanted to split it 70-30 or 80-20. But so much of it just seems purely BW. That being said, the lyrics to much of it ain't Brian's. And Joe could have written a section or two.

Pacific Coast Highway (Thomas 60, Wilson 40). I love this tune. And Brian sings the hell out of it. But it feels more like Joe's work, somehow. My guess is Brian had a chunk of melody and Joe elaborated on it and added most of the lyrics.

Summer's Gone (Wilson 40, Bon Jovi 40, Thomas 20). JT's account is that Brian wrote the first verse and a couple of lines of lyrics, and the other two finished it from there. This seems plausible, especially given that the song is a simple series of verses.
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