were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?

[AndrewHickey]

It's not a question of does Jon or doesn't Jon know what he talking about. It's about people being able to offer opinions on Dave and Dennis without the Marks Mafia jumping on them if they don't slavish the same amount of praise on them as he does.

But that doesn't happen. I've said over and over on this board that I find David's solo music dull, that he made next to no contribution to the Beach Boys music I actually care about, and that I have no interest in hearing him contribute as a songwriter to any future Beach Boys album should one ever happen. No-one's ever 'jumped on' me for saying those things.

(Of course I've also said that he's a very good guitarist, and that he seems like a very nice person, and that I'm glad for him that he's finally getting some recognition. All those things are true too.)

Jon does seem to defend his friend if people are outright abusive or insulting, and possibly goes a little too far in that direction at times, but it's not as if he's stifling discussion.

[Nicko1234]

Being objective basically means that you don't know enough yet to be subjective.
But once you learn enough about something and you know your s hit, you become subjective. Who frowns on that?

It's these sorts of reviews of Jon's books that I was referring to:

http://www.beachboys.com/booksI.html#Dennis

Not all people who write books on a subject become quite so subjective imo.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think Brett Wheaton, who owns that site, has an issue with Jon for whatever reason.Nothing yo do with the quality of books.

[SMiLE Brian]

David was honestly a non-factor when was in the group with nobody remembering the first 4 albums for David Marks' near-zero vocals or guitar playing. Al coming back was great for the group's vocals since David didn't work in the harmony stack.

[AndrewHickey]

I think Brett Wheaton, who owns that site, has an issue with Jon for whatever reason.Nothing yo do with the quality of books.

I think Bret's usually a pretty good judge of the quality of books (after all, he did give my Beach Boys and Monkees books glowing reviews, so he's clearly a man of taste ) but he does have a couple of reviews where I can't understand his opinions, and his reviews of Jon's books are among them.

[Mike's Beard]

It's not a question of does Jon or doesn't Jon know what he talking about. It's about people being able to offer opinions on Dave and Dennis without the Marks Mafia jumping on them if they don't slavish the same amount of praise on them as he does.

But that doesn't happen. I've said over and over on this board that I find David's solo music dull, that he made next to no contribution to the Beach Boys music I actually care about, and that I have no interest in hearing him contribute as a songwriter to any future Beach Boys album should one ever happen. No-one's ever 'jumped on' me for saying those things.

(Of course I've also said that he's a very good guitarist, and that he seems like a very nice person, and that I'm glad for him that he's finally getting some recognition. All those things are true too.)

This may have been why you were cut some slack.

[SMiLE Brian]

It's not a question of does Jon or doesn't Jon know what he talking about. It's about people being able to offer opinions on Dave and Dennis without the Marks Mafia jumping on them if they don't slavish the same amount of praise on them as he does.

But that doesn't happen. I've said over and over on this board that I find David's solo music dull, that he made next to no contribution to the Beach Boys music I actually care about, and that I have no interest in hearing him contribute as a songwriter to any future Beach Boys album should one ever happen. No-one's ever 'jumped on' me for saying those things.

(Of course I've also said that he's a very good guitarist, and that he seems like a very nice person, and that I'm glad for him that he's finally getting some recognition. All those things are true too.)

This may have been why you were cut some slack.

The "Marks Mafia" is always watching every comment on David Marks....

[Gertie J.]

hey i like that term 'Marks Mafia'

[Jon Stebbins]

I've been away from the computer all day visiting a family member who just had open heart surgery...nice to log back on and see some great back and forth. Thanks to Billy, Andrew, Marcella, R&R, and Howie for giving me a voice while away. As far as book reviews go, I'm very grateful for how positive they have been through the years (other than Wheadon's). Long day, think I'll kick back, have a beer, listen to some genius Dennis music and plot how to exact revenge on anyone who doesn't worship David.

[bgas]

Go Jon!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I've been away from the computer all day visiting a family member who just had open heart surgery...nice to log back on and see some great back and forth. Thanks to Billy, Andrew, Marcella, R&R, and Howie for giving me a voice while away. As far as book reviews go, I'm very grateful for how positive they have been through the years (other than Wheadon's). Long day, think I'll kick back, have a beer, listen to some genius Dennis music and plot how to exact revenge on anyone who doesn't worship David.

I know this guy named Joey Numbers whose a professional kinda guy, and he works on the cheap, capice?

Seriously, though...well wishes to your friend Jon

[clack]

Let me try to be a bit more clear; without Jon Stebbins and his work detailing and promoting Dennis Wilson and his work, PACIFIC OCEAN BLUE would have been forever relegated as a fringe curio the way the public (if at all) deems Love's Forever Changes, Big Star's Third/Sister Lovers, Nick Drake's catalogue, and Emitt Rhodes's self-titled album. He wouldn't rest leaving it a bullet point in a "Lost LP" sidebar.

'Forever Changes' a fringe curio? Not that the NME is the final word on these things, but they ranked the lp as the 6th best of all time (Pet Sounds coming in 3rd). It's as famous an album as 'Pet Sounds', 'Revolver', or 'the Velvet Underground with Nico'. Maybe a better comparison would be between POB and Skip Spence's 'Oar'.

Anyway, Dennis's potential as a composer and producer/arranger was only partially fulfilled. I wonder how his own life, and the career of the Beach Boys, would have been changed if, in 1973 or so, Dennis had been given -- or had seized -- Brian-iike control of the band as the producer and main writer.

[Jukka]

Long day, think I'll kick back, have a beer, listen to some genius Dennis music and plot how to exact revenge on anyone who doesn't worship David.

  Great plan, I'm with you!

[Howie Edelson]

Clack -- I stand corrected.

Forever Changes is of course as "famous" (and as good and as important) as The Beatles' masterpiece Revolver.
(What was I thinking?)

Man, I gotta keep up on recent UK music magazine polls so I know what's what with Rock history!

[Jim V.]

Clack -- I stand corrected.

Forever Changes is of course as "famous" (and as good and as important) as The Beatles' masterpiece Revolver.
(What was I thinking?)

Man, I gotta keep up on recent UK music magazine polls so I know what's what with Rock history!

And don't forget to keep reading Jon Stebbins material so we can understand the genius of David Marks classic "Doctor of Love" and the all around great album Work Tapes.

[DonnyL]

David was honestly a non-factor when was in the group with nobody remembering the first 4 albums for David Marks' near-zero vocals or guitar playing. Al coming back was great for the group's vocals since David didn't work in the harmony stack.

Al vs. David is not really historically correct, since both were in the group at the same time.

David was there, playing guitar on 50% of the songs the general public think of as 'Beach Boys'. His photo is in a bunch of the iconic photos.

Sort of like saying 'Dennis was a non-factor on Pet Sounds' or something.

[Nicko1234]

David was there, playing guitar on 50% of the songs the general public think of as 'Beach Boys'. His photo is in a bunch of the iconic photos.

50%??? Not even close. Around 7 of the songs that were on Sounds of Summer perhaps.

[Amy B.]

Also, it's not up to me to decide who a genius is, but I gotta say calling Dennis a genius is a bit much. One solid, really good, but not exactly groundbreaking album and a few scattered songs does not a genius make. Sorry.

Yeah, what a genius is and who is a genius is subjective. But IMO, we mix up talent with genius and call too many people geniuses. I don't think Dennis was a genius, though I LOVE his work. I also don't think Lennon and McCartney were geniuses. Their work was extraordinary, but not miraculous. But anyway, does it really matter? I think one thing Lennon brought (among many things) was witty lyrics. The BBs didn't have that because they didn't have a wit in the group.

[MBE]

To me Dennis was a genius. Honestly he and Brian are two of the only songwriters who are so revealing about themselves. They wrote about feelings that I relate to in such an exact way. Their stuff wasn't as subjective as Lennon's more personal solo attempts, meaning they are trying hard to make their personal feelings relate to everybody.

[Myk Luhv]

I think all this genius-talk hurts the group more than the endless Beatles comparisons. It will obviously not cease but I can dream...

[halblaineisgood]

.

[clack]

Clack -- I stand corrected.

Forever Changes is of course as "famous" (and as good and as important) as The Beatles' masterpiece Revolver.
(What was I thinking?)

Man, I gotta keep up on recent UK music magazine polls so I know what's what with Rock history!

'Revolver' is the best Beatles album, but it's not as known to the general public as is 'Sgt Peppers' or 'Abbey Road'. It's as obscure -- to the general public -- as 'Pet Sounds'.

Anyway, look at any list of the best albums of all time, you'll find 'Forever Changes' . It's even in the Grammy Hall of Fame.

[Jon Stebbins]

Clack -- I stand corrected.

Forever Changes is of course as "famous" (and as good and as important) as The Beatles' masterpiece Revolver.
(What was I thinking?)

Man, I gotta keep up on recent UK music magazine polls so I know what's what with Rock history!

'Revolver' is the best Beatles album, but it's not as known to the general public as is 'Sgt Peppers' or 'Abbey Road'. It's as obscure -- to the general public -- as 'Pet Sounds'.

Anyway, look at any list of the best albums of all time, you'll find 'Forever Changes' . It's even in the Grammy Hall of Fame.

I just don't think an LP like Revolver that has sold somewhere around 15 million copies in the US alone could be considered "obscure" by any measure. Best of lists tend to be the opinion of a small sampling of journalists, critics or artists, and its nice that sometimes they sing the praises of records that should be given stature despite their less than stellar commercial status. But there are clearly two types of popularity or impact. one would be critical and one would be commercial...and only one of them is an objective measure  of fame.

[Mike's Beard]

No official Beatles album could ever be deemed "obscure".

[DonnyL]

David was there, playing guitar on 50% of the songs the general public think of as 'Beach Boys'. His photo is in a bunch of the iconic photos.

50%??? Not even close. Around 7 of the songs that were on Sounds of Summer perhaps.

I'm not trying to split hairs, but I'm talking about surf & car songs.

I don't mean 50% in the literal sense, but like ...

Go ask a random person on the street to sing a Beach Boys song and I bet half of them will name 'Surfin USA' or something from the first few records. I don't mean he played on 50% of the songs on Sounds of Summer. But he probably played on 50% of the reason that 50% of the people buy 'Sounds of Summer' ...

... in any case, he's not a 'non-factor' on those records. which was my basic point.