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were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Topic: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure? (Read 13957 times)
Mike's Beard
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Check your privilege. Love & Mercy guys!
Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #50 on:
March 17, 2013, 03:24:22 AM »
Quote from: Righteous Bald Dude on March 17, 2013, 01:47:09 AM
Dennis's compositions did have many classical elements that weren't always apparent when he had fuller productions. Barbara is a good example as is Cuddle Up. Also, remember that hearing him alone with just a piano would sound different than a full recording. Just my two cents.
Plus Make It Good. That and Cuddle Up owe very little to a conventional rock format.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:28:06 AM by Death To Mike's Beard
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Jon Stebbins
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #51 on:
March 17, 2013, 07:57:09 AM »
Quote from: Death To Mike's Beard on March 17, 2013, 12:33:14 AM
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on March 16, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
Quote from: Death To Mike's Beard on March 16, 2013, 04:49:31 PM
Putting Dennis Wilson in the same league as Mozart is overreaching just a tad.
I suppose assuming your opinion is more informed than Daryl Dragon's is not overreaching...just a tad?
So you honestly think that Dennis Wilson's musical accomplishments should be ranked on the same level as that of Mozart's?
Do you think you could try once, just once to show a little objectivity when it comes to either Dennis Wilson or David Marks?
I never said that, Daryl did, so have others. I posted Daryl's words because you said no serious musician's ever said they were blown away by Dennis' progressions, Daryl being a classically trained guy whose father was a noted classical composer is a vaild perspective. I love it when people try to lean on my lack of objectivity regarding Dennis or Dave on this board as their fallback argument. Its like a guy who has written books on someone that took years of research wouldn't have a lot of knowledge and passion about said subjects? People say the same thing to me in other mediums about my opinions on the Beach Boys and Brian..."if you could just be objective about the Beach Boys for once"...You know dude...try spending years developing, researching, learning, and mustering the energy to write four books on the Beach Boys and see if you might not have some pretty secure opinions regarding that subject. Dennis is one of the things I know best, i never would compare him to Mozart...but I can show you a few very respected musicians who have, not because I lack objectivity...but because I've done enough research on Dennis to know a statement like the one you made about no serious musician being blown away by his progressions is false.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #52 on:
March 17, 2013, 08:30:38 AM »
OK - but was he wearing the Captain's hat when he made those comments?
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MarcellaHasDirtyFeet
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #53 on:
March 17, 2013, 08:53:39 AM »
Dennis was a genius. Something like "Holy Man" can't be made by a normal human being. Same goes for "Moonshine" and "Thoughts of You." He's touched my emotional core in a way that Brian never did (although I love Brian's work equally). Totally subjective, of course, but there ya go. I also adore his production style. I see plenty of variation in his approach to different songs, although having "Cuddle Up" and "Make it Good" on the same album might not have been the best idea. It's clearly colored a lot of opinions about Dennis' work, especially on this board.
I don't think everyone is meant to "get" Dennis' music, but those that do truly seem to appreciate it, and the man who was brave enough to give that much of himself.
I'm with you, Mr. Stebbins. How can we be objective at the "End of the Show?"
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Jason
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #54 on:
March 17, 2013, 09:17:15 AM »
What I'd like to know is why so many people need to find some ridiculous parallels between the Beach Boys and the Beatles...if the lack of a "Lennon-esque figure" hurts your shaky worldview when it comes to the Beach Boys, listen to the Beatles.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 09:25:43 AM by The Real Beach Boy
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Nicko1234
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #55 on:
March 17, 2013, 09:50:54 AM »
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on March 17, 2013, 07:57:09 AM
I love it when people try to lean on my lack of objectivity regarding Dennis or Dave on this board as their fallback argument. Its like a guy who has written books on someone that took years of research wouldn't have a lot of knowledge and passion about said subjects?
Of course anyone who has written books will have knowledge and passion. The one criticism that I have seen of those books is that the passion led to them being skewed however.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #56 on:
March 17, 2013, 09:53:33 AM »
Quote from: Nicko1234 on March 17, 2013, 09:50:54 AM
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on March 17, 2013, 07:57:09 AM
I love it when people try to lean on my lack of objectivity regarding Dennis or Dave on this board as their fallback argument. Its like a guy who has written books on someone that took years of research wouldn't have a lot of knowledge and passion about said subjects?
Of course anyone who has written books will have knowledge and passion. The one criticism that I have seen of those books is that the passion led to them being skewed however.
Being skewed is much better than pretending to be not-skewed just as honesty is always better than dishonesty.
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Mike's Beard
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Check your privilege. Love & Mercy guys!
Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #57 on:
March 17, 2013, 10:11:56 AM »
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on March 17, 2013, 07:57:09 AM
I love it when people try to lean on my lack of objectivity regarding Dennis or Dave on this board as their fallback argument. Its like a guy who has written books on someone that took years of research wouldn't have a lot of knowledge and passion about said subjects?
No but it can certainly prejudice his reaction whenever someone else posts a (heaven forbid) different view on said subjects other than his own.
I still stand by my earlier statement which was making reference to the first Brian Wilson Songwriter DVD in which reference is made to highly trained musicians telling Brian (paraphrasing) that what he has wrote on the charts given to them cannot possably work and then being proved wrong. People being blown away by a person's songwriting or playing (which is what the context of The Captain's quotes are)is not the same as tearing up the rulebook in composition theory and reinventing the wheel as to what scales and keys can overlap each other and not sound like a complete mess. Can you acknowledge the distinction here?
As much as I love the best of Dennis's work I have yet to hear a song by him that has made me sit up and say "Whoooaah! I have never heard anything that sounds remotely like that before!".
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 10:28:59 AM by Death To Mike's Beard
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Mike's Beard
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Check your privilege. Love & Mercy guys!
Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #58 on:
March 17, 2013, 10:25:38 AM »
Bizarre double post.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 10:30:05 AM by Death To Mike's Beard
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #59 on:
March 17, 2013, 10:48:02 AM »
Am I the only one who keeps misreading the thread title as 'lemony figure'?
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #60 on:
March 17, 2013, 11:37:42 AM »
You mean were the Beach Boys lacking a wife beating hippie who was everything he stood against. No.
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Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on October 24, 2011, 11:14:41 PM
According to someone who would know.
Quote from: AvanTodd on January 17, 2015, 07:48:15 PM
Seriously, there was a Beach Boys Love You condom?! Amazing.
Chocolate Shake Man
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #61 on:
March 17, 2013, 11:42:48 AM »
Quote from: Shady on March 17, 2013, 11:37:42 AM
You mean were the Beach Boys lacking a wife beating hippie who was everything he stood against. No.
Shut up.
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #62 on:
March 17, 2013, 11:51:56 AM »
Okay....let's not let this get out of hand.
That said calling Lennon a wife beating hippie is kind of rich when Dennis wasn't a saint either. Besides I am a bit of a hippie myself so...meh
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #63 on:
March 17, 2013, 11:57:52 AM »
I agree, it's going down road not really needed.
I love a lot of Lennon's music but as a person he was pretty dark.
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Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on October 24, 2011, 11:14:41 PM
According to someone who would know.
Quote from: AvanTodd on January 17, 2015, 07:48:15 PM
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Chocolate Shake Man
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #64 on:
March 17, 2013, 12:05:02 PM »
And pretty light.
I'm reminded of an interview of George Harrison back around the Cloud Nine era when it started to become fashionable to call Lennon out for his hypocrisy. Enough dust had settled after him being murdered and so the time was just about right to defame the guy when he wasn't around to defend himself. The interviewer says to Harrison of Lennon: "He was no angel." And Harrison's response was "No. But sometimes yes." And the interviewer responded, dumbfounded, "Really?" Harrison affirmed his point.
Did Lennon have his dark side? Of course. Did he make mistakes that human beings make everyday? Yes. But he was also a person that a lot of people loved who were close to him. He is a guy who is on record as being very loyal and very friendly. I read a lot of books on The Beatles written by people who were their photographers, or chauffeurs, etc. And the majority of the time they will say that the person who was friendliest to them was John. The notion that John was a public peacenik and a private demon is such a myth, it's just tiring having to combat it constantly. You might as well be telling me that The Beach Boys didn't play instruments on any of their records or that they were only a novelty band, etc.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 12:08:13 PM by rockandroll
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #65 on:
March 17, 2013, 12:06:34 PM »
Well said rock. Hell we are all heroes and villains both
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #66 on:
March 17, 2013, 12:20:49 PM »
Quote from: rockandroll on March 17, 2013, 12:05:02 PM
And pretty light.
I'm reminded of an interview of George Harrison back around the Cloud Nine era when it started to become fashionable to call Lennon out for his hypocrisy. Enough dust had settled after him being murdered and so the time was just about right to defame the guy when he wasn't around to defend himself. The interviewer says to Harrison of Lennon: "He was no angel." And Harrison's response was "No. But sometimes yes." And the interviewer responded, dumbfounded, "Really?" Harrison affirmed his point.
Did Lennon have his dark side? Of course. Did he make mistakes that human beings make everyday? Yes. But he was also a person that a lot of people loved who were close to him. He is a guy who is on record as being very loyal and very friendly. I read a lot of books on The Beatles written by people who were their photographers, or chauffeurs, etc. And the majority of the time they will say that the person who was friendliest to them was John. The notion that John was a public peacenik and a private demon is such a myth, it's just tiring having to combat it constantly. You might as well be telling me that The Beach Boys didn't play instruments on any of their records or that they were only a novelty band, etc.
I totally respect all of that.
That said I find it a bit irritating how every musician seems to be fair game when it comes to calling them out on their mistakes but Lennon. Look at how Mike is treated on this board and by the public in general, even Brian is portrayed as some mental basket case. Lennon was a deeply flawed man like most people and he lived his life publicly, enjoyed his riches so I think it's fair to discuss aspects of his life that weren't so fantastic.
People need to realize that nobody is perfect, that even the legends were flawed. It's always disappointing to dig deep into the history of other venerated people such as Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Kennedy, and so on. When you bring up the truth it's always going to be controversial because people don't like hearing bad stuff about such beloved historical figures.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 12:21:52 PM by Shady
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Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on October 24, 2011, 11:14:41 PM
According to someone who would know.
Quote from: AvanTodd on January 17, 2015, 07:48:15 PM
Seriously, there was a Beach Boys Love You condom?! Amazing.
Chocolate Shake Man
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #67 on:
March 17, 2013, 12:30:16 PM »
Quote from: Shady on March 17, 2013, 12:20:49 PM
I totally respect all of that.
That said I find it a bit irritating how every musician seems to be fair game when it comes to calling them out on their mistakes but Lennon.
Yeah, but that's quite simply not true. In fact, I'd say by now, it's pretty much the reverse. However, I will say that there is a distinction between unfair criticisms and fair criticisms and most of the the criticisms lobbed against Lennon are typically unfair, as I see it. At best, they are groundless. Take your point from above: "[he] was everything he stood against." He was? Everything? So Lennon was against the Vietnam war. So he was the Vietnam War? Or he actively participated in the illegal ongoing destruction of a civilization/culture?
The worst thing about criticisms like these is not that they are widely accepted, which they are, but that they aren't even true. And for the ones that are true, our basis of knowing about them frequently comes down to the fact that Lennon largely acknowledged them and was critical of these actions himself. Lennon was frequently the first person to acknowledge his own faults and worked throughout his life to try and own up to them and better himself. That's much more than I can say for Mike Love who stubbornly makes the same mistakes again and again because he is incapable of understanding why he might - just might! - be wrong. So yes, everybody is human and everybody makes mistakes. But nevertheless, there are still people whose flaws I can accept for a variety reasons more than others. Furthermore, I can accept faults more if they come from a place of enormous insecurity rather than enormous arrogance. Don't ask me why - it's just more palatable.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 12:32:05 PM by rockandroll
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dwtherealbb
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #68 on:
March 17, 2013, 12:50:06 PM »
Quote from: Shady on March 17, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
I love a lot of Lennon's music but as a person he was pretty dark.
That's what I liked the most about Lennon. The songs like "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" or "Don't Let Me Down" are really powerful songs. As I said earlier, Dennis in some ways was the closest thing to a Lennon figure. That "all things that live must one day die you know" verse sounds like something that might have been on something like Mind Games.
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Jim V.
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #69 on:
March 17, 2013, 12:51:25 PM »
Quote from: Nicko1234 on March 17, 2013, 09:50:54 AM
Quote from: Jon Stebbins on March 17, 2013, 07:57:09 AM
I love it when people try to lean on my lack of objectivity regarding Dennis or Dave on this board as their fallback argument. Its like a guy who has written books on someone that took years of research wouldn't have a lot of knowledge and passion about said subjects?
Of course anyone who has written books will have knowledge and passion. The one criticism that I have seen of those books is that the passion led to them being skewed however.
THANK YOU! I felt it got ridiculous when Jon was asked for his favorite Beach Boys related live album and he said that it was
Live at the Blue Dolphin '77
!
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Howie Edelson
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #70 on:
March 17, 2013, 03:09:23 PM »
Being objective basically means that you don't know enough yet to be subjective.
But once you learn enough about something and you know your s hit, you become subjective. Who frowns on that?
Do any of the people that have posted a THOUSAND times on this board think that Jon Stebbins doesn't know what he's talking about?
That he's deliberately changing history in an effort to trick you into buying his books?
I think all of his work is as fair as it is groundbreaking.
NOBODY cared about POB until he brought it back into public consciousness -- guess what: REISSUE OF THE YEAR across the board.
David Marks was all but written out of history, his book raised his profile and told the full story -- whaddya know DAVID MARKS ends up a key player on the 50th tour.
How skewed is he, really?
I'd say the guy is not only on the ball but well ahead of the curve, no?
For the record, I just don't get this whole "Beatles vs. Beach Boys" or "Brian vs. Dennis" stuff.
I think treating art like sports is the most immature thing.
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AndrewHickey
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #71 on:
March 17, 2013, 03:35:02 PM »
Quote from: Howie Edelson on March 17, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
NOBODY cared about POB until he brought it back into public consciousness
That's simply not true. I have nothing but respect for Jon and his work, but long before Jon wrote his book on Dennis Pacific Ocean Blue was regularly being mentioned in magazines like Mojo in "Great Lost Album" articles and so on.
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Mike's Beard
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Check your privilege. Love & Mercy guys!
Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #72 on:
March 17, 2013, 03:54:36 PM »
Quote from: Howie Edelson on March 17, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
NOBODY cared about POB until he brought it back into public consciousness -- guess what: REISSUE OF THE YEAR across the board.
People had been trying for years to get their hands on long out of print copies of POB, often at crazy prices. It was hardly some forgotten obscurity before Jon championed it.
Quote from: Howie Edelson on March 17, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
David Marks was all but written out of history, his book raised his profile and told the full story -- whaddya know DAVID MARKS ends up a key player on the 50th tour.
Was that a different David Marks playing with the group back in the late 90's? Sure looked like the same guy.
Quote from: Howie Edelson on March 17, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
Being objective basically means that you don't know enough yet to be subjective.
Do any of the people that have posted a THOUSAND times on this board think that Jon Stebbins doesn't know what he's talking about?
It's not a question of does Jon or doesn't Jon know what he talking about. It's about people being able to offer opinions on Dave and Dennis without the Marks Mafia jumping on them if they don't slavish the same amount of praise on them as he does.
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Howie Edelson
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
«
Reply #73 on:
March 17, 2013, 04:01:13 PM »
Let me try to be a bit more clear; without Jon Stebbins and his work detailing and promoting Dennis Wilson and his work, PACIFIC OCEAN BLUE would have been forever relegated as a fringe curio the way the public (if at all) deems Love's
Forever Changes
, Big Star's
Third/Sister Lovers
, Nick Drake's catalogue, and Emitt Rhodes's self-titled album. He wouldn't rest leaving it a bullet point in a "Lost LP" sidebar.
Without the publication of
The Real Beach Boy
, SONY would never have had the faith -- nor granted the budget -- needed to produce the extremely successful and critically acclaimed POB/BAMBU Legacy set -- in which he had a substantial hand in compiling, as well.
Stebbins brought it above ground.
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Howie Edelson
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Re: were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?
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Reply #74 on:
March 17, 2013, 04:04:17 PM »
Death To Mike's Beard: You should read THE LOST BEACH BOY.
If you did, you'd know that those two guys couldn't be more different.
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Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 04:05:42 PM by Howie Edelson
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