were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Plus the fact he was crucial to the early guitar sound that helped make them big from the start.

[Nicko1234]

I'm not trying to split hairs, but I'm talking about surf & car songs.

I don't mean 50% in the literal sense, but like ...

Go ask a random person on the street to sing a Beach Boys song and I bet half of them will name 'Surfin USA' or something from the first few records. I don't mean he played on 50% of the songs on Sounds of Summer. But he probably played on 50% of the reason that 50% of the people buy 'Sounds of Summer' ...

... in any case, he's not a 'non-factor' on those records. which was my basic point.

Sorry but I still think that's a massive stretch.

The songs from Sounds of Summer that he is on are:

Surfin Safari
Surfin USA
Shut Down
Little Deuce Coupe
Surfer Girl
In My Room
Be True to Your School (is he even on this one?)

Now Surfin USA is obviously seen as a classic but would people really name the other songs ahead of Fun, Fun, Fun, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, Wouldn't it be Nice, God Only Knows, Good Vibrations, Kokomo etc.?

Plus I'm not sure David's guitar playing was exactly crucial to Surfer Girl or In My Room.

Obviously he deserves some respect for being on those first 3 or 4 albums and he was written out of the story for too long. But I can't help feeling that sometimes people are now trying to pull too far in the other direction with their revisionism. He was 14/15 when he left the band and I think some people overstate his importance in the group.

It's curious how fan opinion varies from 'Brian was the Beach Boys' to 'David was a crucial part of the band though'.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Nicko1234]

Can I think both of those things?

Not without being mildly schizophrenic. 

[Generation42]

Why are the Beatles such a gold standard? Didn't the Beach Boys create better records?

As to why the Beatles are considered the "Gold Standard," well, whatever its collective merits, I always thought allmusic.com summed it up nicely with one line:

The Beatles "were among the few artists of any discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did and the most popular at what they did."
They go on to highlight chart records, innovations, other areas of cultural impact and the like, but we're not here for a history lesson.

I know on this board one might expect universal agreement with your sentiment, but if you're asking me, the answer is unequivocally, "no, the Beach Boys, by and large, did not produce the better records."  Art is subjective like that, but you knew that.

Oh, and if we absolutely must contrast solo works, as much as it may be the obvious choice, when it comes to raw emotional intensity, as much as I certainly adore Pacific Ocean Blue, for my money, there's an even better 'POB' for visceral experience, and it's Lennon's.

That said, you're right, the Beach Boys required no Lennon figure any more than the Beatles needed a Brian.  Both bands hit that perfect, combustible combination of talent that is so very rare and each achieved a greatness we're all still so ravenous about decades after the fact.  No right-minded Beach Boys fan need to ever suffer an inferiority complex.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Jon Stebbins]

It's curious how fan opinion varies from 'Brian was the Beach Boys' to 'David was a crucial part of the band though'.

Can I think both of those things?

I'd say its healthy to believe both of those things as they are both true. True to varying degrees of course depending on the particular aspect of history you are focusing on...but both true.

[DonnyL]

I'm not trying to split hairs, but I'm talking about surf & car songs.

I don't mean 50% in the literal sense, but like ...

Go ask a random person on the street to sing a Beach Boys song and I bet half of them will name 'Surfin USA' or something from the first few records. I don't mean he played on 50% of the songs on Sounds of Summer. But he probably played on 50% of the reason that 50% of the people buy 'Sounds of Summer' ...

... in any case, he's not a 'non-factor' on those records. which was my basic point.

Sorry but I still think that's a massive stretch.

The songs from Sounds of Summer that he is on are:

Surfin Safari
Surfin USA
Shut Down
Little Deuce Coupe
Surfer Girl
In My Room
Be True to Your School (is he even on this one?)

Now Surfin USA is obviously seen as a classic but would people really name the other songs ahead of Fun, Fun, Fun, I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, Wouldn't it be Nice, God Only Knows, Good Vibrations, Kokomo etc.?

Plus I'm not sure David's guitar playing was exactly crucial to Surfer Girl or In My Room.

Obviously he deserves some respect for being on those first 3 or 4 albums and he was written out of the story for too long. But I can't help feeling that sometimes people are now trying to pull too far in the other direction with their revisionism. He was 14/15 when he left the band and I think some people overstate his importance in the group.

It's curious how fan opinion varies from 'Brian was the Beach Boys' to 'David was a crucial part of the band though'.

Last thing I'm going to say on this ...

I'm not bringing 'Sounds of Summer' into the argument, you are (or was it someone else?) ... If we're going to use a hits comp, 'Endless Summer' is a better one -- it's sold many more copies, has been in print longer, and is essentially responsible for cementing the public image of the Beach Boys into collective American consciousness.

But that's not my point. My point is that probably half of the people who buy these kinds of comps associate the Beach Boys with the 'Surfin' USA' sound ... which he was a part of. THAT'S ALL ...

What I'm getting at is he was not a 'non-factor'; he was a guitar player in the band when much of their quintessential material was recorded. I don't really see how you can argue with that.

[Nicko1234]

Last thing I'm going to say on this ...

I'm not bringing 'Sounds of Summer' into the argument, you are (or was it someone else?) ... If we're going to use a hits comp, 'Endless Summer' is a better one -- it's sold many more copies, has been in print longer, and is essentially responsible for cementing the public image of the Beach Boys into collective American consciousness.

But that's not my point. My point is that probably half of the people who buy these kinds of comps associate the Beach Boys with the 'Surfin' USA' sound ... which he was a part of. THAT'S ALL ...

What I'm getting at is he was not a 'non-factor'; he was a guitar player in the band when much of their quintessential material was recorded. I don't really see how you can argue with that.

Ok. It's no big deal. The only reason I mentioned any compilation (doesn't matter which as David will only have appeared on 7 or 8 songs) was because you made the 50% comment which doesn't stack up whichever way you slice it.

I wouldn't use the phrase 'non-factor' to describe David's role in the music but it was a very, very small factor. If another competent guy had been there to play second guitar then it really wouldn't have made much difference to the sound.

David's main contribution was simply to have been a Beach Boy and to have been through the experience of those recording sessions and shows. It's right that he's now remembered for that but not because he was a major factor in the group's success imo.