Is Bruce an original member? No? Well, Mike's website claims he is.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Just to get back to the original point, rather than the whole "Mike is the Devil and Bruce his representative on Earth" thing this has deteriorated into:

No, of course Bruce isn't an 'original member', but at the same time it's not like the claim is that different from those made by other bands. I saw The Grandmothers in the mid-90s, and they were billed as "featuring Don Preston, Bunk Gardner and Jimmy Carl Black of the original Mothers Of Invention" -- Preston and Gardner joined for the Mothers' second album.

Similarly, last week I saw The Magic Band. The promotion for that gig, which you can see at http://bandonthewall.org/events/3824/ , says "Sharing the vision of celebrating the music of the late Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart), original members Denny “Feelers Rebo” Walley, Mark “Rockette Morton” Boston, and John “Drumbo” French share the stage with guitarist Eric Klerks and drummer Craig Bunch to re-visit the classic Beefheart tunes with renewed fervor."

Drumbo joined the Magic Band for their first album, but didn't play on their first single. Rockette Morton only joined for the third album, Trout Mask Replica, and Denny Walley didn't join the band until 1975, ten years after they started, and only stayed in for eighteen months, and didn't play on any albums released while Beefheart was alive.

While Bruce definitely isn't an "original Beach Boy" in the sense most of us would use it, that of being in the band from the beginning, that kind of phrasing seems to be used now when advertising 60s bands to distinguish people who were on at least some of the records the audience will remember from people who weren't. It may be an inaccurate way of putting it, but I don't think it's especially dishonest.

I think that's a real stretch Andrew. Comparing the MOI to America's greatest band, one on the level of the Beatles and Stones. If they'd Mick Taylor or Ron Wood as an original Stone, better comparison. But they don't.

The Beach Boys Band billing Bruce as an original member is just plain wrong.

[Don Malcolm]

Bruce is not an original member of anything except Bruce & Terry. He has been a long-time member of the BBs, however, and he's been enough of a fixture that no one will probably try to sue Mike or the BBs' corporate entity for misrepresentation if they make the claim that he's an original member.

The rest of the commentary in the thread, while often colorful, is simply extraneous to the original question.

[AndrewHickey]

Just to get back to the original point, rather than the whole "Mike is the Devil and Bruce his representative on Earth" thing this has deteriorated into:

No, of course Bruce isn't an 'original member', but at the same time it's not like the claim is that different from those made by other bands. I saw The Grandmothers in the mid-90s, and they were billed as "featuring Don Preston, Bunk Gardner and Jimmy Carl Black of the original Mothers Of Invention" -- Preston and Gardner joined for the Mothers' second album.

Similarly, last week I saw The Magic Band. The promotion for that gig, which you can see at http://bandonthewall.org/events/3824/ , says "Sharing the vision of celebrating the music of the late Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart), original members Denny “Feelers Rebo” Walley, Mark “Rockette Morton” Boston, and John “Drumbo” French share the stage with guitarist Eric Klerks and drummer Craig Bunch to re-visit the classic Beefheart tunes with renewed fervor."

Drumbo joined the Magic Band for their first album, but didn't play on their first single. Rockette Morton only joined for the third album, Trout Mask Replica, and Denny Walley didn't join the band until 1975, ten years after they started, and only stayed in for eighteen months, and didn't play on any albums released while Beefheart was alive.

While Bruce definitely isn't an "original Beach Boy" in the sense most of us would use it, that of being in the band from the beginning, that kind of phrasing seems to be used now when advertising 60s bands to distinguish people who were on at least some of the records the audience will remember from people who weren't. It may be an inaccurate way of putting it, but I don't think it's especially dishonest.

I think that's a real stretch Andrew. Comparing the MOI to America's greatest band, one on the level of the Beatles and Stones. If they'd Mick Taylor or Ron Wood as an original Stone, better comparison. But they don't.

The Beach Boys Band billing Bruce as an original member is just plain wrong.

Well, I think the Mothers were roughly a million times better than the Stones, so I may be biased

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Just to get back to the original point, rather than the whole "Mike is the Devil and Bruce his representative on Earth" thing this has deteriorated into:

No, of course Bruce isn't an 'original member', but at the same time it's not like the claim is that different from those made by other bands. I saw The Grandmothers in the mid-90s, and they were billed as "featuring Don Preston, Bunk Gardner and Jimmy Carl Black of the original Mothers Of Invention" -- Preston and Gardner joined for the Mothers' second album.

Similarly, last week I saw The Magic Band. The promotion for that gig, which you can see at http://bandonthewall.org/events/3824/ , says "Sharing the vision of celebrating the music of the late Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart), original members Denny “Feelers Rebo” Walley, Mark “Rockette Morton” Boston, and John “Drumbo” French share the stage with guitarist Eric Klerks and drummer Craig Bunch to re-visit the classic Beefheart tunes with renewed fervor."

Drumbo joined the Magic Band for their first album, but didn't play on their first single. Rockette Morton only joined for the third album, Trout Mask Replica, and Denny Walley didn't join the band until 1975, ten years after they started, and only stayed in for eighteen months, and didn't play on any albums released while Beefheart was alive.

While Bruce definitely isn't an "original Beach Boy" in the sense most of us would use it, that of being in the band from the beginning, that kind of phrasing seems to be used now when advertising 60s bands to distinguish people who were on at least some of the records the audience will remember from people who weren't. It may be an inaccurate way of putting it, but I don't think it's especially dishonest.

I think that's a real stretch Andrew. Comparing the MOI to America's greatest band, one on the level of the Beatles and Stones. If they'd Mick Taylor or Ron Wood as an original Stone, better comparison. But they don't.

The Beach Boys Band billing Bruce as an original member is just plain wrong.

Well, I think the Mothers were roughly a million times better than the Stones, so I may be biased

I can dig that Andrew!

[Moon Dawg]

 Literal facts tell us that Bruce is a core member but not an original member. My 50th Anniversary Tour program does not include Bruce as a founding member. In an installment of the Summer 1989 TV series, Bruce told a young (now forgotten) band "I wasn't in the original band, so I get to say this" before praising Brian's talents.

   Perhaps the question comes down to this: In an existential sense, is Bruce Johnston a REAL Beach Boy?

 Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Dave are all real Beach Boys. Blondie and Ricky? Maybe not. Bruce? Worthy of debate.

[AndrewHickey]

Literal facts tell us that Bruce is a core member but not an original member.  Perhaps the question comes down to this: In an existential sense, is Bruce Johnston a REAL Beach Boy?

 Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Dave are all real Beach Boys. Blondie and Ricky? Maybe not. Bruce? Worthy of debate.

He was on Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, California Girls, God Only Knows... of course he's a real Beach Boy.

[Moon Dawg]

Literal facts tell us that Bruce is a core member but not an original member.  Perhaps the question comes down to this: In an existential sense, is Bruce Johnston a REAL Beach Boy?

 Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Dave are all real Beach Boys. Blondie and Ricky? Maybe not. Bruce? Worthy of debate.

He was on Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, California Girls, God Only Knows... of course he's a real Beach Boy.

 Ed Carter and Billy Hinsche played on stage and on records. Are they real Beach Boys? Not quite. They were hired hands and/or good friends. Bruce is somewhat more than that to be sure, but in some undefinable way his postion as a Beach Boy seems tenuous compared to the six listed above. My reasoning at this point again is more philosophical than literal. >just a mood.

[Moon Dawg]

Yeah, when I think of Bruce, I think of a surfing Doris Day.

 I never got that. Doris Day looked far better in a bathing suit than Bruce. It was an odd thought IMO.

[Sheriff John Stone]

OK, the board's slow, this is a fun topic, a lot of people are joining in, that's good, so...

Who made this quote and who did he say it to: "For six months you were a Beach Boy" Answer: Mike Love said it to Glen Campbell on the 25th Anniversary TV Special. Now, I know, he didn't mean it literally. Or, did he?

How close was Glen Campbell to being considered a real Beach Boy, like Bruce, Blondie, and Ricky? First of all, they gave Glen a striped shirt. You can't just shrug that off. David Marks got one, Al, got one, Bruce got one, and GLEN CAMPBELL got one. So, here's the big question:

What if Glen hung around for a couple of more weeks, and it was Glen who sang, "I wish they all could be California...", and, he appeared on the album cover of Summer Days And Summer Nights, and then he promptly left to become a solo performer, only to be replaced by Bruce Johnston. For the sake of discussion, would've that made Glen a Beach Boy?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Literal facts tell us that Bruce is a core member but not an original member. My 50th Anniversary Tour program does not include Bruce as a founding member. In an installment of the Summer 1989 TV series, Bruce told a young (now forgotten) band "I wasn't in the original band, so I get to say this" before praising Brian's talents.

   Perhaps the question comes down to this: In an existential sense, is Bruce Johnston a REAL Beach Boy?

 Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Dave are all real Beach Boys. Blondie and Ricky? Maybe not. Bruce? Worthy of debate.

Yes, without a doubt, no debate, Bruce is a REAL Beach Boy.

[AndrewHickey]

Literal facts tell us that Bruce is a core member but not an original member.  Perhaps the question comes down to this: In an existential sense, is Bruce Johnston a REAL Beach Boy?

 Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Dave are all real Beach Boys. Blondie and Ricky? Maybe not. Bruce? Worthy of debate.

He was on Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, California Girls, God Only Knows... of course he's a real Beach Boy.

 Ed Carter and Billy Hinsche played on stage and on records. Are they real Beach Boys? Not quite. They were hired hands and/or good friends. Bruce is somewhat more than that to be sure, but in some undefinable way his postion as a Beach Boy seems tenuous compared to the six listed above. My reasoning at this point again is more philosophical than literal. >just a mood.

Ed Carter and Billy Hinsche were never corporate members (Bruce isn't now, but was briefly in the late 60s/early 70s), never sand lead or prominent backing vocal parts on the albums, never wrote songs for the band, never had their photos on album covers, never produced a Beach Boys album, never had their name incorporated in the band's publishing company name, never counted as members of the Beach Boys for contractual purposes when performing live, and were never referred to by the others as members of the Beach Boys.

Also, for me, Bruce's position as a Beach Boy is *far* less tenuous than David's. He was on far more records, made a far more notable creative contribution to the ones he was on, was in the band for decades longer, and is on almost all of the Beach Boys albums I find listenable all the way through. And that's not to knock David, but just... I can't even begin to comprehend how someone could consider it "worthy of debate" as to whether Bruce is a Beach Boy.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Bruce is not an original member of anything except Bruce & Terry. He has been a long-time member of the BBs, however, and he's been enough of a fixture that no one will probably try to sue Mike or the BBs' corporate entity for misrepresentation if they make the claim that he's an original member.

The rest of the commentary in the thread, while often colorful, is simply extraneous to the original question.

I don't know. Didn't Al get sued for using the Beach Boy's name in his billing. If the Brian, Al & David show really does well, and they get the BB name license, an issue like this would surely come up. Wouldn't surprise me if somebody notes this thread and the web site is changed. Happened before when the post 50th Mike/Bruce concert PR release led one to believe that Brian would appear.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

OK, the board's slow, this is a fun topic, a lot of people are joining in, that's good, so...

Who made this quote and who did he say it to: "For six months you were a Beach Boy" Answer: Mike Love said it to Glen Campbell on the 25th Anniversary TV Special. Now, I know, he didn't mean it literally. Or, did he?

How close was Glen Campbell to being considered a real Beach Boy, like Bruce, Blondie, and Ricky? First of all, they gave Glen a striped shirt. You can't just shrug that off. David Marks got one, Al, got one, Bruce got one, and GLEN CAMPBELL got one. So, here's the big question:

What if Glen hung around for a couple of more weeks, and it was Glen who sang, "I wish they all could be California...", and, he appeared on the album cover of Summer Days And Summer Nights, and then he promptly left to become a solo performer, only to be replaced by Bruce Johnston. For the sake of discussion, would've that made Glen a Beach Boy?

It is kinda fun Sheriff.  Much rather be talking about the new box set.

[SMiLE Brian]

I think the whole question of Bruce being a real BB comes from his cavalier and callous attitude about being in the group. Saying stuff along the lines of "this is a job and I  will never be into the music like the fans in a million years" doesn't help your case.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But Bruce just IS  a Beach Boy! Just look at him and listen to his voice! If this guy wasn't born to be a Beach Boy, I dunno who was!

[Jim V.]

Ed Carter and Billy Hinsche were never corporate members (Bruce isn't now, but was briefly in the late 60s/early 70s), never sand lead or prominent backing vocal parts on the albums, never wrote songs for the band, never had their photos on album covers, never produced a Beach Boys album, never had their name incorporated in the band's publishing company name, never counted as members of the Beach Boys for contractual purposes when performing live, and were never referred to by the others as members of the Beach Boys.

Also, for me, Bruce's position as a Beach Boy is *far* less tenuous than David's. He was on far more records, made a far more notable creative contribution to the ones he was on, was in the band for decades longer, and is on almost all of the Beach Boys albums I find listenable all the way through. And that's not to knock David, but just... I can't even begin to comprehend how someone could consider it "worthy of debate" as to whether Bruce is a Beach Boy.

In before AGD pulls his "you didn't get every single fact correct" card. Ed Carter apparently did write a song for the band called "Surfer Suzie" that was in the running for Keepin' The Summer Alive. Apparently AGD thinks it's good, but with a title like that, and lyrics like that (which I've read), I can't imagine how it'd even be passable.

[SMiLE Brian]

But Bruce just IS  a Beach Boy! Just look at him and listen to his voice! If this guy wasn't born to be a Beach Boys, I dunno who was!

I meant more from a fan's perspective and why people question his membership.

[AndrewHickey]

I think the whole question of Bruce being a real BB comes from his cavalier and callous attitude about being in the group. Saying stuff along the lines of "this is a job and I  will never be into the music like the fans in a million years" doesn't help your case.

How's that callous? Cavalier, I can see, but callous?!
And plenty of musicians are in bands whose fans appreciate their music more than those musicians themselves do. I've read that Charlie Watts doesn't like the Stones' music much, but he's definitely a Rolling Stone.

Dislike Bruce's attitude all you like, but his attitude doesn't make him any less of a member of the band. I can't even see why there's a debate here as to whether he's a 'real' Beach Boy or not.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Charlie Watts plays the damn drums at least

[SMiLE Brian]

Agreed, Bruce has been phoning it in for decades now.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Exactly! Brian and Mike don't need to prove a damn thing to anybody and both Dave and Al have released solo stuff.... Bruce adjusts his mike, gets paid and talks sh*t....... However, he IS a Beach Boy!

[SMiLE Brian]

A very lazy one.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

How's that callous? Cavalier, I can see, but callous?!
And plenty of musicians are in bands whose fans appreciate their music more than those musicians themselves do. I've read that Charlie Watts doesn't like the Stones' music much, but he's definitely a Rolling Stone.

Dislike Bruce's attitude all you like, but his attitude doesn't make him any less of a member of the band. I can't even see why there's a debate here as to whether he's a 'real' Beach Boy or not.

Bruce once said several years ago that he considers himself more of a 'hired hand' than a 'real' Beach Boy. I still consider him one, though.

[Jon Stebbins]

Also, for me, Bruce's position as a Beach Boy is *far* less tenuous than David's. He was on far more records, made a far more notable creative contribution to the ones he was on, was in the band for decades longer, and is on almost all of the Beach Boys albums I find listenable all the way through. And that's not to knock David, but just... I can't even begin to comprehend how someone could consider it "worthy of debate" as to whether Bruce is a Beach Boy.

British fans (not sure if Andrew is) tend to have that opinion in general because Bruce was in the band when the Beach Boys became "famous" or mainstream in the UK. But in the US, if you are a first generation fan like me, we bought the albums one by one, and heard the hits one by one in the actual context as they came out. Our perspective is different. To the wave of fans that witnessed their rise to fame the Beach Boys were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David...a couple of years and five albums later David was gone and Al was the new guy...and couple of years and several albums after that Bruce appeared. So yes all of the things you say are true regarding Bruce being on more records, and in the band decades longer, and writing songs etc... But he came into the band a long time after they had become a household name in the US, and to many of us the Beach Boys glory days were behind them by the time we realized Bruce was a member of the Beach Boys. That's not to knock Bruce, that's just a perspective of someone who watched the Beach Boys history unfold in real time.

[filledeplage]

But Bruce just IS  a Beach Boy! Just look at him and listen to his voice! If this guy wasn't born to be a Beach Boys, I dunno who was!

I meant more from a fan's perspective and why people question his membership.

SMiLE Brian - I gotta agree with Pinder Goes To Kokomo.  When the Band needed a replacement for Brian (after Glenn Campbell) they got it right with someone who actually did surf music, and had some credentials, and did surf, which never got the airplay, that Dennis got.  He seems to really enjoy the gigs, goes out of his way, always for the special needs fans, and, keeps the audience engaged, while taking the heat for it.  

Fans I know, don't even blink when they talk "core" members and would laugh to hear it even discussed.  When someone has been around nearly 50 years, nit picking about "who was first?" seems ridiculous.  It reminds me of taking attendance in school.  He played Pet Sounds for the Beatles.  That was a great diplomatic stride to  privately let them hear that album.  Historic, really, given the perception or misperception that the bands were rivals.  They spurred each other to work harder, more creatively and that is a great thing.  

Moreover he was a member of BRI, upon formation, in 1966, according to what I've read.  Andrew tells us "1965," and Jeff Foskett says, "original" and even if it appears to be a conflict, longevity for Johnston and early involvement by Marks, (followed by a long absence) even as young and a sort of guitar prodigy, seem to confer that membership status.  David was a star on this tour. 

Any day of the week I'd rather have 5 than 3 Beach Boys!